[UNIEL] Waldstein

[Mo the Hawk]

I read the document and I came across this notation called "Du", what does it mean?

"Duck under", it's listed at the top. After the 6C wallbounce you need to dash to get to the other side so after 2C > 3C > 214C, you'll put them back into the corner.

[Deezxnutz]

"Duck under", it's listed at the top. After the 6C wallbounce you need to dash to get to the other side so after 2C > 3C > 214C, you'll put them back into the corner.

OH I feel silly for not seeing it earlier, I appreciate the help. Great document btw.

[GodPress]

OH I feel silly for not seeing it earlier, I appreciate the help. Great document btw.

I don't blame you for missing it, especially if you're just skimming through the document. Just for clarity, the reason there are abbreviations like that is just to economize on space to keep a consistent(ish) layout throughout. I still need to spruce it up a bit and add other things like metered 2a/5a, veil combos and so forth.

[zankoku]

Before jiyuna drove himself to insanity on the path of successfully infiniting someone on ranked netplay, I noticed that he has a tendency to end his BnB early, at 4B, rather than going into 360/GodPress, due to the positioning and RPS opportunities the 4B provides (step forward 360, 2B, block a reversal). Worth doing?

 

 

I always like to go into 46A for the corner. You cant move forward after it though since if they forward tech they'll get out, but even at the range it leaves you, it's still stupidly scary for the opponent. You can try for a 236B CS into 3.5k, if they block that then after CS you can command grab or run whatever with the advantage you get from 236B. You can just wait a bit and 360B them or wait and try to react to what they'll do to get out.

 

At a certain range it seems better to go for j.[C] > dash 2B > 5B > 236A/B route since it will leave them in the corner anyway with an actual knockdown, but anywhere not in that range i go for 46A

 

 

I agree with Sticky.

Does 2B beat backdash in the post 4B situation?

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I could see an argument for ending certain combos that have already used their bounces/re-stands in 4B for that sort of thing every now and then as a gimmick, but in general I think comboing into 4B XX [4]6A to gain the corner is a far more threatening option.  I also don't like ending in 360A after the 4B at all because it leaves you in the worst position of all for a very marginal damage increase.

 

 

Also worth noting that the j.B j.C j.6C, j.C j.6C, j.C j.B XX j.214A ender has quite a bit of carry to it.  I can't remember for certain and I can't test it right now but I think it also does more damage than the j.[C] dash 2B 5B 5C XX 236A route.

 

Did some frame-testing. The choices are as follows:

 

360A/B/C ender

- Deals VERY slightly more damage

- Absolutely horrid positioning

 

[4]6A/B/C ender

- Guaranteed corner carry

- With the exception of Chain Shifting into a 3C or 4B, allows opponent to air-tech, potentially even getting him past you and causing you to corner yourself.

 

"No" ender

- Significantly less damage (200 or more damage is lost)

- Prevents opponent from mixing up ANY directional/late tech options (4B, like 1A, causes stagger, which has a set animation duration regardless of hitstun proration or forced combo stop)

- +9 frame advantage

 

I've actually seen ending at 4B as an occasional gimmick to force a high/low/throw mixup (236B/2B/360) that has an absolutely unavoidable, consistent timing for the setup., even in JP matches, though for obvious reasons not used in every situation. Still, at +9, this even gives Waldstein a consistent timing for a meaty 5A/2A, if needed.

[Deezxnutz]

I don't blame you for missing it, especially if you're just skimming through the document. Just for clarity, the reason there are abbreviations like that is just to economize on space to keep a consistent(ish) layout throughout. I still need to spruce it up a bit and add other things like metered 2a/5a, veil combos and so forth.

I actually haven't seen anyone post combo routes for J.2C/Body Splash. I think it'd probably go like: J.2C, CS, 214B, J.B, J.C, J.6C, J. C, J.B, J.214B

[Shadow Ninja 64]

I actually haven't seen anyone post combo routes for J.2C/Body Splash. I think it'd probably go like: J.2C, CS, 214B, J.B, J.C, J.6C, J. C, J.B, J.214B

 

Huh, you're right.  I know I hadn't thought about it because I'm not a fan of how unsafe the move is on block.  Here's some damage values for it:

 

j.2C CS 5C XX 214B, j.B j.C j.6C, 4B XX [4]6A [3230]

j.2C CS 5C XX 214B, j.B j.C j.6C, j.C j.6C, j.C j.B XX j.214B [3368]

j.2C CS 5C XX 214B, j.B j.C j.6C, (walk forward) 5C 3C XX [4]6C [3727]

 

Note: If your opponent is small or you land sorta far from them, the 5C might knock them too far away, so you could just go with 5B instead.

 

Edit: I hadn't realized this, but j.2C land 236C seems to combo, at least on Linne, as long as you do the 236C ASAP:

 

j.2C land 236C, j.A j.B j.C, DashB XX 214B, 3C (XX [4]6C) [3152 / 3714, both non-Vorpal numbers]

 

 

Edit 2: Random combo thought for in or near the corner off non-CH 236A:

 

236A XX 623C, 2B 5C XX 214B, 3C, 2A 5B 5C 3C (XX 214C) [3954 / 4491]

[RedTag14]

Good stuff happening here. It's nice to see that Wald has a community even though it's pretty small at the moment. Not sure why, cause he's really easy to play! lol Anyway, I was messing with easy ways to get the 360 out. Apparently there's a shortcut by just tiger-kneeing a half circle (632147A/B/C).You can also just do a 270 (6321478A/B/C). Works for me every time. Sorry if this has already been mentioned since I just briefly skimmed the thread. Hope it helps cause I know it helped me out a ton!

[GodPress]

Yeah the J2C combos I completely omitted,good looking out. I've added in Shadow's combos. You can also combo off of B+C if you catch them close enough.

[Deezxnutz]

There's a whole thread for discussing the infinite, so let's try and talk about other wald topics here.

What do you think are waldstein's worse matchups? I feel like he has a slightly bad matchup against Gourdeau (duh) and probably Vatista. But other then that most of the time the game feels like it's in my favor as wald.

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I absolutely have a hard time fighting Vatista, I cannot get in on her at all

[zankoku]

Fun little trick for combo extension, j.214A/B/C and 214C do NOT count as groundslams, and thus do not burn up the 3 groundslam/wallslam limit of a combo. This means you can Chain Shift in the corner to land IW (or Chain Shift anywhere from 214C if you're in Veil Off), as well as Chain Shift anywhere to land [4]6C; meterlessly, you can Chain Shift into 236A to tack on an extra 300 or so damage, though it doesn't provide any sort of beneficial positioning outside of the corner.

[JettyLovefield]

Can't help but spamming J.2C even if it's soooo unsafe on block and whiff (just love almost all of Wald's moves)

But you can combo without CS, but i think it gotta be counter hit, if i recall.

 

I only play Wald because he has a badass walk and fun combos to apply even if some give low damage.

[MK Peanuts]

Got a couple questions on this character:

 

1. What should I be doing at neutral? I kind of just 6D all over the place since Wald kind of has no mobility outside of that, but most players seem to be able to catch on to that and anti air it.

 

2. How do you get out of the corner if you don't have meter? Most blockstrings seem to push characters back far enough that Wald's 5A won't reach them, and his B button seems too slow.

[GodPress]

Got a couple questions on this character:

 

1. What should I be doing at neutral? I kind of just 6D all over the place since Wald kind of has no mobility outside of that, but most players seem to be able to catch on to that and anti air it.

 

2. How do you get out of the corner if you don't have meter? Most blockstrings seem to push characters back far enough that Wald's 5A won't reach them, and his B button seems too slow.

Use charge to bait them to coming to you or walk them into the corner with the threat of your normals (5b/2b etc) use assault sparingly.

 

2A has the same startup and a better reach, other than that getting out of the corner with no meter requires patience and good use of shield. 

[AdmiralAugustus]

Use charge to bait them to coming to you or walk them into the corner with the threat of your normals (5b/2b etc) use assault sparingly.

2A has the same startup and a better reach, other than that getting out of the corner with no meter requires patience and good use of shield.

What is the metered way to get out? 623 C?

[zankoku]

623C and 360C are your only invulnerable reversals (bar IW and IW EXS, which are probably not the best ideas defensively to blow 200 meter on; and Veil Off).

[Mo the Hawk]

Didn't see any 66C starter combos listed yet. Max range confirms whoo:

 

66C (2 hits) > j.A > j.B > j.C > 66B > 214B > j.A > j.B > j.6C > j.C > j.2C

~2800 damage IIRC, ~3k with Vorpal.

Substitute j.214B as the ender if you carried to the corner.

 

Hold forward to walk a bit after confirming the 66C hit to make the pickup a little easier. And do j.A during the rise of your jump, otherwise j.C will whiff on the descent.

 

Anyone got something for 66C (1 hit) at max range? Other than my j.C > 214B baby confirm.

[Tomo009]

What do you guys do for oki midscreen?

 

An example of what I'm doing but it is probably sub-optimal

 

2A 5B xx 21B
j.B j.C j.6C

669 j.[C]

2C 4B

 

Only nets 2622 which is a pretty significant cut off from the damage BnB

[GodPress]

Didn't see any 66C starter combos listed yet. Max range confirms whoo:

 

66C (2 hits) > j.A > j.B > j.C > 66B > 214B > j.A > j.B > j.6C > j.C > j.2C

~2800 damage IIRC, ~3k with Vorpal.

Substitute j.214B as the ender if you carried to the corner.

 

Hold forward to walk a bit after confirming the 66C hit to make the pickup a little easier. And do j.A during the rise of your jump, otherwise j.C will whiff on the descent.

Added it to the document however, I personally couldn't get the second repeat of J.A>J.B to land.

[Mo the Hawk]

Added it to the document however, I personally couldn't get the second repeat of J.A>J.B to land.

 

I ganked it from here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wKbNTafp24&t=16m38s

 

Personally tried and verified it on Akatsuki... might be a character-specific thing.

[zankoku]

I've been working on the Mizuumi wiki page for Waldstein, please provide input~

 

http://wiki.mizuumi.net/w/Under_Night_In-Birth/Waldstein

[GodPress]

I've been working on the Mizuumi wiki page for Waldstein, please provide input~

 

http://wiki.mizuumi.net/w/Under_Night_In-Birth/Waldstein

Good work man!

[JettyLovefield]

Can you get a combo with 3 charge moves?

Just to style

[zankoku]

I think the best you can do for style is start and end a combo with the same command throw (start with 360, chain shift, combo, end with 360; or start with [4]6, chain shift, combo, end with [4]6).

[JettyLovefield]

Yeah i've been mostly doing [4]6 twice, too bad i can't get past 6 wall hits even with veil off. 

 

Oh well i guess i'll try with 360s just for fun.

[Loli-Zero]

So if you haven't figured this out yet through grinding or watching JP match videos, I thought I'd take them time to break down Waldstein's assault game.

Waldstein is an incredibly strong character, for a few simple reasons,

- He occupies a huge threat zone in neutral

- He can mix you up from 1/3 screen away

- He has terrifying pressure options, particularly in the corner

- He has strong grappler options in a game where holding up back already gets you killed

But in addition to these things, he is actually hard to keep out! Despite having terrible mobility, Waldstein has ridiculous options during assault that allow him to circumnavigate the hardest parts of playing a grappler, and make people feel stupid for not being able to anti-air predictable movements. Let me explain:

WALDSTEIN ASSAULT NORMALS, AND YOU

j.C

Let's start with Wald's basic jump-in, assault j.C. This move is really good. Once it starts up, it has great priority and reach. It will hit if you cross over accidentally, and it's easy to combo off on just about any hit. This is a pretty typical assault j.C in UNIEL. If you make a read in neutral, you can use this out of a jump to hop over and punish certain pokes and projectiles. If your opponent respects you too much or is bad at anti airing you can get in with this all day. However, most characters can reliably anti-air this by reacting to the fact that you are in the air, or by expecting you'll jump at certain spacings and responding with air-unblockable normals. If this was all Waldo had he'd be a pretty normal character.

j.B

This is waldstein's bread and butter approach. Assault j.B is ludicrously strong. When done early in an assault, this move is extremely difficult for the majority of the cast to anti-air, and almost no characters can anti air this on reaction if its coming from a grounded assault. From 1/3-3/4 screen, this is an amazing, space controlling approach option. You cannot combo off an early assault j.B on normal hit, but if characters try to punish you with their normal antiairs you will counterhit them out of startup and get a full combo that bypasses assault proration. You can still get beat by dp's, but your opponent has to do the input as soon as you leave the ground, or it will be too late. A few characters have more reliable options to stop you from spamming this (for example, Carmine has a head invuln move that can blow this up at certain spacings), but most of the cast has to just let you do it at certain ranges. This reluctancy to antiair will also allow you to get away with other jumpins once your opponent respects you.

Your goal in using this move is to get close and put your opponent in blockstun. On block you have lots of options, most of which work at a 1/3 screen range. You can go into 2A, or 2B. These will catch jumping, mashing, or blocking high (2b only) and get get you a combo. You can go straight into a 360A/B (usually B unless you're right next to them). You can 236A to catch backdashes (and combo after if you have meter or CS). You can use 66B if you're far away and want to cover some more space. You can also (and sometimes have to) block to bait a DP. You can even do another assault normal to get closer and obtain better options. Simply put, you're in and Waldstein has a massive advantage, particularly if you're aware of how grappler meta works in most games.

This tactic is technically susceptible to shielding and punishing, but at a lot of spacings normals used after shielding will whiff. Also, some character's punish options will get beat by shielded assault j.b into command grab. And worst of all, because players are unable to stop shielding for a certain amount of frames after you choose to do so, empty jump command grabs or lows become a huge threat.

It is also important to note that j.A can be used in the same manner as assault j.B at further distances where j.B may whiff. However, even on counter hit you will not be able to combo if the early j.A hits.

The Empty Jumps (j.A, j.6C, and charged j.C)

In order to do a proper empty jump in UNIEL you need to whiff a jump normal out of assault. Wald has several options to do this. The first is assault j.a. I really like this option, because it looks like an assault j,B. Once you've conditioned a player to block your jump ins, this becomes a very strong mixup. It is certainly preferable to do this at spacing where 360A is a possibility, but you'll be surprised at how often you can get away with 360B when opponents are worried about other options. Also, as I said above, this will blow up shielding as 360B also becomes untechable and either command grab will GRD break. The other nice thing about j.A is if your opponent jumped, the j.A will hit them. You can't combo off of this during an assault, but they will tech and return to the ground, and your positioning should be better in most cases. The downside to j.A, is that it will connect at farther spacings, and on taller characters.

J. 6C is a safe option, because it should never connect with a standing opponent. It will also catch jumping and convert to a decent combo at most spacings. However, the animation is the most distinct and may not be quite as deceiving to your opponent as some of the other options.

Another option is to use a charged whiff j.C. This becomes especially good once opponents respect you enough to allow assault j.C. A player might see you assault and not attempt to antiair for fear of j.B, then see that the gap is bigger and prepare to block or shield the j.C, and then get command grabbed. The downside here is that this will not catch jumping or mash, and only works if the opponent is afraid of your other options.

Empty jump lows are also an option, but since Wald's low is slow, and command grabs are better for punishing fear or shielding, I rarely do lows.

You can also opt to whiff a 66C for a command grab setup. This is a decent option at closer ranges, because it will blow up up-back and advancing normals at spacings where other options might leave you vulnerable. It also has seemingly no recovery upon landing, and leaves you airborne for a shorter period of time making this the fastest command grab setup, and therefore the hardest to react to.

Overall, varying your command grab setups depending on the spacing and what kind of mind games you're attempting to use is the healthiest approach. Using multiple options with different animations increasing the confusion your opponent has to deal with during your offense.

j.2C

This normal is mostly used to cover more space after an assault, cover more vertical air-to-air space in matchups where characters can get high on the screen (linne, merkava), or leap over projectiles meant to stop you from assaulting. It's punishable on block, so only use it if you have a hard read or have CS to activate on hit or block.

Regular Jumping

If your opponent becomes afraid of your other options, you can start mixing in non-assault jumpins at closer spacings. This of course is great because you have more control over the timing, and can chain or reverse beat for additional hits. Also, if you land a hit there is no assault proration.

I hope this information is helpful for some of you. I think this is a really important part of waldstein's gameplay to understand. There are a lot of matchups in the game that are in his favor because of a character's inability to deal with spamming assault j.B. I also recommend more patient styles of gameplay at neutral, but these become way better when you've established the threat of your assault game. If you're having trouble with spacing and knowing when to use various options I'd recommend watching Gashisan or Fusemaster matches. Good luck, and happy assaulting.