[UNIEL] Carmine

[Necro Undine]

What's Carmine's gamplan to fight Merk? I had a lot of trouble controlling the pace of the match - he'd stay up in the air and either shoot a fireball or airdash in and start pressure.  If I guess fireball I can dashin and punish but wasn't sure if there was a better more reliable option to stop him from taking to the sky so frequently.

 

I read you can shield his 3C and punish with 5A (in case he tries to make it safe with a fireball).  Also read you can shield the last hit of his 236C and punish too.

 

I like to use 6B in this matchup because it can catch his full screen command grab if he tries for it. I believe you can't do it on reaction because at that point his command grab would already have hit you, so basically you want to condition him not to use it by tagging him with 6B enough beforehand. Also if there's a puddle on him i'd assume 623A/B would be good at stopping him from using that or pressing buttons in general. Also 236B is very important being it stops his flight dash in's and hinders air movement in general, giving you cover to get in. You can also just dash under his flight if anything. Aside from those two parts of the MU, his pressure will be something you have to deal with being Carmine with no reversal options, so i'd say to just be patient and look for any holes in his offense so you can then begin yours from there.

[Merkyl999x]

Hey guys, new on Dustloop, been running Carmine for about a week now.  Still getting over some of his longer combo execution hurdles.

Hopefully I can start contributing as I get up to speed.

Main question for now, if you end a blockstring with 22A/B and get a counterhit, is there a way to combo if they're outside of 2C range?  5MM xx DP or anything like that?

Secondary question, under the 'players to watch' lists, there's SAT and King Crimson.  If you search SAT on youtube (haven't dug into Nico much) sometimes you'll see individual matches that are supposed to be SAT (typically playing the orange/green alt), but sometimes you'll find a stream upload that supposedly has SAT playing, but the player tag is Kurimuzon (Crimson) and typically plays the yellow alt and they seem to have different playstyles.  Does anyone know if these are 2 different people with incorrect labeling or the same player with an evolved playstyle over time?

For example:

http://youtu.be/R2IMC8EAi5Y

vs.

http://youtu.be/9af2RltDRj8?t=3m12s

[Istillduno]

Besides when playing against characters with DPs, is there any reason why I shouldn't be doing j236a pretty much above the opponent's head as midscreen oki when I have blood on the floor?

 

It seems like a pretty hard to block crossup as you get pushed back after doing the move but before it hits and the side it starts hitting on varies depending on the position of you and the puddle, but since I haven't seen it mentioned at all I'm wondering if I should just  be laying down a 214[a] or 214 instead and going for another blockstring.

[B.Z.B]

It seems like a pretty hard to block crossup as you get pushed back after doing the move but before it hits and the side it starts hitting on varies depending on the position of you and the puddle, but since I haven't seen it mentioned at all I'm wondering if I should just  be laying down a 214[a] or 214 instead and going for another blockstring.

 

Because it can be blocked it either way, there's crossup protection a la melty blood.

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/8994-crossup-and-overhead-protection/ 

[Istillduno]

Oh I thought that was only when somebody was already being hit and you tried to cross them up.

 

Time to give 214a some midscreen loving then?

[Mumm-Ra]

Just got the game, expect me to ask dumb questions in the near future

[Kane-Z]

Main question for now, if you end a blockstring with 22A/B and get a counterhit, is there a way to combo if they're outside of 2C range?  5MM xx DP or anything like that?

Well, this might seem a bit obvious but if they are outside the 2C range you could always CS the 22A/B and dash forward with 2C > 6B > 2C....etc. Another alternative would be canceling the 22A into 214+C and going for a bnb.

[Merkyl999x]

Thanks, still getting used to some of the other mechanics.  Been focusing more on hit confirms so my neutral/oki game is still super rough.  I'm coming over from a few years in Marvel so my brain doesn't think in CS yet.

214C is the ice/blood block super, right?  Can you do more than a few hits and set up oki off that? (I'm not very familiar with the speed of meter gain and overall expected damage.  Is the ~2400 damage worth spending the bar to confirm?)

Edit: Nvm...I'm an idiot, was mixing up 22C and 214C in my head.  214C makes way more sense.

[Magaki]

Hey guys, new on Dustloop, been running Carmine for about a week now.  Still getting over some of his longer combo execution hurdles.

Hopefully I can start contributing as I get up to speed.

Main question for now, if you end a blockstring with 22A/B and get a counterhit, is there a way to combo if they're outside of 2C range?  5MM xx DP or anything like that?

Secondary question, under the 'players to watch' lists, there's SAT and King Crimson.  If you search SAT on youtube (haven't dug into Nico much) sometimes you'll see individual matches that are supposed to be SAT (typically playing the orange/green alt), but sometimes you'll find a stream upload that supposedly has SAT playing, but the player tag is Kurimuzon (Crimson) and typically plays the yellow alt and they seem to have different playstyles.  Does anyone know if these are 2 different people with incorrect labeling or the same player with an evolved playstyle over time?

For example:

http://youtu.be/R2IMC8EAi5Y

vs.

http://youtu.be/9af2RltDRj8?t=3m12s

What I do after a 22B outside 2C range usually is 22B>236C in the corner. Technically, if you use meter, the 2 moves you can use to follow up are either 236C or 22C. Problem is that you don't have the time to hitconfirm that. So if you consider the space control 236C offer you if your opponent block, 236C is the best choice.

However, 236C whiffs if you hit with the tippity tip of 22B with small characters like Linne. That's a situationnal risk but still a risk.

Also, 22B>22C does give you enough time to set 2 traps and use concentration. If you manage to get 5 GRD block with that, you get back all the meter you used so if you prefer to use sparingly your ressources, 22C might be the way to go even though if the opponent blocks it, it's back to neutral but you can be certain that on hit, it will always work.

Kane however had a great idea which is to use CS after 22B. I tested it in training and whether it is on hit or block, it's quite amazing. On block, you have enough time to dash in, press 5B, and the opponent is still in blockstun ! On hit, you get some pretty cool reward just by doing dash>2C>236A right away and go for a corner carry combo or corner combo if you're in the corner.

So yeah, if you got CS, I would definetely recommend to do 22B>CS whenever you can. With meter, I would suggest to go for 236C in the corner or 22C midscreen.

I didn't watch that much Crimson's matches but his style and SAT's are definetely different. Thanks for pointing it out man.

 

Oh I thought that was only when somebody was already being hit and you tried to cross them up.

 

Time to give 214a some midscreen loving then?

214[A] is our best meaty yeah. Be careful though midscreen because back tech is quite strong in that game. Make sure to keep your fingers on A, B and C midscreen. This way, if you see your opponent back teching, press B+C and release A in order to force them to block it anyway. Then rush and do assault>j236B to make them block it in order to keep your blood pressure going.

 

 

Just got the game, expect me to ask dumb questions in the near future

As long as you at least try to read previous posts in order to check whether your question was already asked or not, you can ask as many questions as you want.

IIRC, you were hanging around the Arakune and Teddie board before right ? Glad to see you decided to main Carmine, another character I love. I'm looking forward to the new techs you might find. Well, if you don't mind sharing them of course.

 

Thanks, still getting used to some of the other mechanics.  Been focusing more on hit confirms so my neutral/oki game is still super rough.  I'm coming over from a few years in Marvel so my brain doesn't think in CS yet.

214C is the ice/blood block super, right?  Can you do more than a few hits and set up oki off that?

 

Here's the midscreen combo:

214C>2C>6B>2C>236A>Charged j.C>2B>j.A>j.B>j.C>3B>2C (3059 dmg)

Sourenga's wiki uses 214C>5B>6B instead but 5B>6B isn't really consistent here.

In the corner, you should rather go for:

214C>2C>6B>2C>236A>66C>236B>Charged j.C>JB>2C>623A>66C

I tested both on Linne (worst hurtbox for Carmine) and they work fine so it's probably universal.

 

[Kane-Z]

What I do after a 22B outside 2C range usually is 22B>236C in the corner. Technically, if you use meter, the 2 moves you can use to follow up are either 236C or 22C. Problem is that you don't have the time to hitconfirm that. So if you consider the space control 236C offer you if your opponent block, 236C is the best choice.

However, 236C whiffs if you hit with the tippity tip of 22B with small characters like Linne. That's a situationnal risk but still a risk.

Also, 22B>22C does give you enough time to set 2 traps and use concentration. If you manage to get 5 GRD block with that, you get back all the meter you used so if you prefer to use sparingly your ressources, 22C might be the way to go even though if the opponent blocks it, it's back to neutral but you can be certain that on hit, it will always work.

I think hit & confirming 22C from 22A/B is not a bad but the damage is kinda low if you are planning to burn meter. Best I could get is around 2900-3000 by doing 3 specials (236+B > 623+B 2x). If you choose to settle 2 puddles + 623+B the damage is around 2900. Getting concentration and GRD is always good though.

On the other hand with 214+C you can get 3200 if you choose to just end with 3B > 2C for the oki and you could always cancel that last 2C into 22C/236+C/ 623+C for the kill. Also, the combo itself corner carries as well and we all know how much Carmine loves that corner.

For 236+C I think its fine for the corner but the wheel often misses at max range from mid screen like Magaki already mentioned.

Good idea about CS canceling the spikes during our blockstrings. So far I have been CS canceling 214+A/B on block but 22A could be a better option.

[Villainous]

What do you guys like to use for anti air combo? Currently I'm just doing 3B j.a j.b j.c 3B 2C 623B super but I feel like he could probably get more. 

[Merkyl999x]

3B j.CAB 2C 6B 2C 236A j.[C] 2B 2C

That's the one I use. (From http://youtu.be/Aj4M7Up-ryc)

[Istillduno]

Thanks for the meaty tips, I swear 214a or b is just getting more and more useful as time goes on.

 

Been messing around with the combo posted on page 2 (5B 5C 2C 6B 2C xx 236A , dash under jABC land 3B 623B, dashC > oki)

 

Do we actually need to cross under for this?

 

I ask because I've been testing it and getting to the 3B part (as in landing the 3B) with just dashing close before jABC and not crossing under, pretty sure I could get the 623B afterwards if I actually remember to cancel the 3C instead of just going into "done this part of the combo, now what?" mode and letting the other guy tech.

 

Seems like it's easier than the j[C], dash 2B path if you don't actually need to swap sides.

[jo-p]

Finally put the avatar up, feeling legit !!

Anyways, I'm curious about what combos you guys are using off of anti-air wheels? For now i've been using j.[C] > 662B > j.A > j.B > J.C > 3B > 2C oki.  Any other ways i can maximize damage?

[Ryd']

Thanks for the meaty tips, I swear 214a or b is just getting more and more useful as time goes on.

 

214[A/B] is probably Carmine's most useful special.  Anything that can be stored for later use and released without requiring an animation on the character's part is one of the most potent things you can give a character; the risk that it might go off can make a more cautious opponent let you get away with a lot more than you would otherwise, while a twitchy opponent is likely to get clipped by the variety of extra frame traps you can run with a tool like that.  You can use it to cover risky decisions, or extend combos in different ways.  It's an amazing move; learn to use it well and it won't let you down.

[Tomo009]

Does anyone have any Veil Off combos for when you really want to guarantee a kill? I imagine you could activate during a pinwheel easily and continue from there?

 

EDIT: seems you can't, guess i have my mission for the moment

 

Best I've got so far is

 

2B 2C 6B 

2C xx 236C xx DD 

ABC

66C xx 236C

426D

 

for 4068 damage... seems like a waste of resources so far

[Villainous]

3B j.CAB 2C 6B 2C 236A j.[C] 2B 2C

That's the one I use. (From http://youtu.be/Aj4M7Up-ryc)

Awesome, thanks. Sometimes I'm surprised what works in this game. 

Found 2 useful corner BNBs, one for overhead with a puddle under them and one off 22A if they get tagged at the end of a pressure string: 

6[C] 623A wait 2C 6B 2C 236A j.[C] 2B JC delay j.ABC 3B 2C 22A 623C: 4.5k with vorpal 

22A 3B 2C 236A rest is same as above. 

His corner damage is ridiculous!

[Magaki]

On the other hand with 214+C you can get 3200 if you choose to just end with 3B > 2C for the oki and you could always cancel that last 2C into 22C/236+C/ 623+C for the kill. Also, the combo itself corner carries as well and we all know how much Carmine loves that corner.

Good idea about CS canceling the spikes during our blockstrings. So far I have been CS canceling 214+A/B on block but 22A could be a better option.

The problem that I have with 214C is that, like I mentionned, you can't hitconfirm out of a 22A/B outside 2C range. You need to input the 22C/236C/214C right away. If your opponent block a 22C, it's back to neutral so it's fine. 236C whiffing isn't that bad too simply because it does cover a lot of space and not everyone can punish you for that.

With 214C though, if your opponent was blocking, you end up right before them and you're - on block. So you went from a situation where you were the one pressuring to a situation where you're the one being pressured.

Which is way too risky in my opinion.

However, if we are in a situation where you're certain your 22B will hit, better go for 214C right away considering you will corner carry from it which is the best choice possible.

As for using CS against 22A/B on block, it's actually the only special that gives us a puddle right away which is useful for hitconfirms, combos and even during pressure so it's my favourite move to CS now.

 

 

Been messing around with the combo posted on page 2 (5B 5C 2C 6B 2C xx 236A , dash under jABC land 3B 623B, dashC > oki)

 

Do we actually need to cross under for this?

 

That's indeed the cross under combo used to switch sides. Reason why we only use it for that is because it doesn't provide a corner carry as good as the dash 2B >jABC route and, most of all, it got the dash C ender.

Problem with the dash C ender is that, midscreen, it gets easily beaten by delay techs. Whether you go for 236A meaty or 214[A] (B+C) meaty, delay back tech can beat it because based on how far your opponent was when doing dash C, 214[A]>B+C>]A[ can completely whiffs. It's a rather annoying situation that happened to me countless times and if we consider how we want our opponent to be unable to escape Carmine's vortex, we don't want to see that happen.

And that's pretty much the reason why, midscreen, there is only one combo ender that will always result in a guaranteed oki: 3B>2C

Of course, if you're still having troubles with Carmine's combo, it's better to start with easier combo and learn little by little.

Here's an easy one that works with ANY starter for beginners who struggle with his combos. It's universal and works both midscreen and in the corner. It can be useful for people who already know all his combos but think they will most likely drop a combo because the starter wasn't great in the middle of a match:

hitconfirm(can be 5A>5B or whatever)>2C>3B>small delay jABC>3B>2C

Hope it will help some beginners.

 

Finally put the avatar up, feeling legit !!

Anyways, I'm curious about what combos you guys are using off of anti-air wheels? For now i've been using j.[C] > 662B > j.A > j.B > J.C > 3B > 2C oki.  Any other ways i can maximize damage?

Bad Peace Forest is one of my favourite color too haha. I usually go with Emerald Island because it looks like he's throwing out acid.

As for AA 236B combos, it depends a lot of how high and how far your opponent in the air is. If you hit with the tippity tip of the hitbox, you can't combo into anything. Midscreen, going for the dash 2B>jABC route is usually the best choice because it works on everyone. Other combos I found where just way too situationnal or character specifc.

2B>2C doesn't work on everyone. Same with 2B>6B>2C, j[C]>jB>2C and j[C]>j6B.

All of them also depends of the height.

So yeah, you're better off sticking with 2B>jABC unless someone else find a better universal combo.

@Tomo

The most used veil off combo ender by Notsu is:

After a 236A or 66C if the bounce limit wasn't reached:

22C>Veil off>236C>623C

Most used veil off + CS combo ender is:

236C>CS>Veil off>41236D

P.S: Thanks Tigre and Worldjem for taking care of the wiki.

Once I'll have more free time IRL, I'll definetely help you guys.

 

[Villainous]

 

22C>Veil off>236C>623C

236C>CS>Veil off>41236D

 

The first one is nice and reliable, pops the damage up to about 5k off his regular BNB. 

Not sure how to set up the second one consistently, especially in the corner since you need space to activate without your veil off hitting them. How do they usually lead into that combo ender? 

Also, just noticed that his orange costume in the wiki has orange hands where as in the game he has purple hands. I wonder if that changed since arcade or something? http://wiki.mizuumi.net/images/a/a2/Carmine-15.png

[B.Z.B]

The first one is nice and reliable, pops the damage up to about 5k off his regular BNB. 

Not sure how to set up the second one consistently, especially in the corner since you need space to activate without your veil off hitting them. How do they usually lead into that combo ender? 

 

Mid Screen BnB Veil off

http://youtu.be/N-ixpyawNbg?t=10m4s

 

Corner BnB Veil off

http://youtu.be/N-ixpyawNbg?t=11m35s

[Kane-Z]

The first one is nice and reliable, pops the damage up to about 5k off his regular BNB. 

Not sure how to set up the second one consistently, especially in the corner since you need space to activate without your veil off hitting them. How do they usually lead into that combo ender? 

Also, just noticed that his orange costume in the wiki has orange hands where as in the game he has purple hands. I wonder if that changed since arcade or something? http://wiki.mizuumi.net/images/a/a2/Carmine-15.png

A good CS > VO combo you could use mid screen is this:

5B > 2C > 6B > 2C > 236+A > 66C > 236+C > CS > VO > 214+C > 623+B > 41236+D

In the corner its a bit more annoying to set it up because we need the right spacing for the VO activation to whiff. You could do a variation like in the video:

BnB ending with 236+A > jump back j.[C] > land > 236+C > CS > VO > 41236+D

When you jump back with j.[C] it puts him in the right position for the VO activation to whiff. Honestly, I haven't been very sucessful with this setup because if you are late the 236+C completely whiffs. So you have to jump back and land that j.[C] pretty late in order to connect that 236+C wheel. If anybody has better alternatives please share.

[1percentwinrate]

Saw this on a stream late at night and forgot the link to it but: 2C > 6B > 2C > 236A >66 j.[C]>66 2B>j.ABC>3B>63214C 3k damage and a good amount of health back for 100 meter and is a great corner carry plus health. You can probably crossup with j.C if you feel ballsy.

 

Edit: How useful is 5BB > 3B > tk j.6b? Seems useful for combo ending and the puddle for set up though you could do 6b but some extra damage is nice I guess?

[Killey]

Who's responsible for the wiki page for Unib? I'd like to have the ability to update the Carmine wiki because it's severely lacking right now. If you want to see what I've done in the past, I did the Elisabeth wiki for KoFXIII on Dreamcancel.

 

http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Elisabeth_Branctorche_(XIII)

[Magaki]

Saw this on a stream late at night and forgot the link to it but: 2C > 6B > 2C > 236A >66 j.[C]>66 2B>j.ABC>3B>63214C 3k damage and a good amount of health back for 100 meter and is a great corner carry plus health. You can probably crossup with j.C if you feel ballsy.

 

Edit: How useful is 5BB > 3B > tk j.6b? Seems useful for combo ending and the puddle for set up though you could do 6b but some extra damage is nice I guess?

You can't do any crossup with Carmine because of the crossup protection system.

And depends of the combo. If you go for the optimized combos, chances are that you already used your jump cancel (you can only jump cancel once per combo) and even if you didn't, the hitstun decay would allow the opponent to tech in the air after j6B. Which is bad news because it can allow the opponent to tech forward or backward which end up with Carmine being unable to apply blood pressure on them.

Front tech also allows to exit the corner.

If you would like to have a puddle, it's better to go for 236A/j236B meaty as it will allow you to have a puddle on the ground no matter what while still allowing you to keep the blood pressure going.

 

 

Who's responsible for the wiki page for Unib? I'd like to have the ability to update the Carmine wiki because it's severely lacking right now. If you want to see what I've done in the past, I did the Elisabeth wiki for KoFXIII on Dreamcancel.

 

http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Elisabeth_Branctorche_(XIII)

Nice !

Please read this thread in order to know how to make an account.

Good luck though and if you have troubles with anything, don't hesitate asking here !

[Istillduno]

Thanks for the heads up on the midscreen combo, going to have to grind in that dash 2B timing in that case.

 

Edit: Think I got it using 6A+B to dash makes it so much easier, now just got to get over the suprise of actually hitting it to continue the combo afterwards :P