[UNIEL] Vatista

[dere]

This is a question more about routes than specifics, as mentioned in Bill's post.

For starters, A drill 2C link in all combos.

When is it easy?

When is it hard?

I've noticed that without a starting counterhit of any sort, the 2C timing becomes quite tight if you are muscle memorying certain routes.

Second thing is, what are the advantages? or disadvantages of using jA jB instead of jB jC as the starting aerial?

The routes I have learned all use the jA jB Adrill aerial instead of jB jC Adrill, and jA jB jC seems reserved for rejumps.

I'm thinking it's to make double crystal guaranteed regardless of starter on everyone but if not does jB jC make the above A drill 2C link easier or harder?

 

In my experience j.B j.C A drill 2c is a bit harder from a 2a starter than j.A j.B (but possible). I also go j.A route from any 6D j.starter (not even sure if you can go j.B j.C here?)

Disadvantage of j.A first is it whiffs at certain ranges where j.B j.C would connect and does slightly less damage, but I'm pretty sure some combos don't even work if you don't go with this.

I'm still unsure about the air starter routes, will probably test this later today.

[Hecatom]

Well, is not like the combos are difficult because the devs decided to do it that way just to piss off the players with "random execution barriers" , after all the optimal combos used in competition are found by the players, using the tools of the characters.

Vatista has a a good amount of manageable stuff to do and the difficult stuff is not impossible, it just need practice.

Saying that, i understand your frustration, i still can't do a lot of the pro stuff, fuck my old man hands

[sibladeko]

Well, is not like the combos are difficult because the devs decided to do it that way just to piss off the players with "random execution barriers" , ...

I understand this character is supposed to be extremely obnoxious when played well and all, but part of me wonders if the person who designed her actually played with her extensively.

The amount of weirdness you have to go through to execute her basic gameplan (beyond jump back ball laser ad nauseum lol, nevermind the combos) seems really superfluous.

Imagine if the crystals were on something like a direction and BC (not command normals, Angelia showed me what happens when you have command normals overlapping with a charge character.)

[TheArm05]

I think the crystals are just too good to not have them be charges of some kind. They always trade in your favor and almost always give you an extremely easy high damage confirm. Useful as anti airs and for making your blockstrings extremely plus. 

 

I think its pretty interesting how it makes you prioritize buttons since each button has its use.  Although I disagree that you ever have to give up flashkick.  

 

As far as when 2c link is hard or easy. Anything off an assault starter is automatically harder than non assault however if you get a Counter Hit or if they are in GRD break it seems like it treats it like a normal jump in.

The worst starters for her are multiple 5a/2as or assault in my experience.  Make sure you toggle Counter Hits on and off in training mode to get used to the different combo hitstuns.  

 

For the first couple days I was dropping 2c link everytime bc I would do assault j.C 5a 5b 2c 5c j.b j.c j.82a 2c and that just doesn't work. Ideal confirm is assault j.C 2c 5c j.b j.82a but even doing j.C 5a 2c 5c allows for much better combos then the route with 5b in it.

[sibladeko]

Oh I'd definitely give them some drawback if I was to make them easier to do (take some grd?), but that's just theoretical.

Back to combo routes, you have enough time off a single jB to do a j82A charge?

Good to know if I need to do simplify on a bad execution day.

From what I've seen 5B is generally not used in any grounded combos at all, it's for post-orb launch and post B-drill corner wall slam.

[LoopsScoops]

So, I'm getting her combos down rather well, but I don't exactly know what routes set up good bomb oki, what routes has everybody been using for that?

[Ryd']

Also, what's the fastest anyone here has gotten out a charge motion? I want to see how fast she can charge.

Mine is 53 frames.

 

From what I've tested, all her ground directional specials have a 53 frame charge time.  Fastest I've gotten drill is 43 (40 gives nothing, 43 and up give drill)  Crystals have a 61 frame charge time.

 

Edit:

 

Has anyone played with the crossup functionality on 66C?  If you chain into B+C, will the opponent instantly have to correct their guard, or do they have crossup protection until there's a break in the string?  Seems there could be some fun stuff with that, especially since crystal detonations have a vacuum effect on block.

[JettyLovefield]

Her Bababa needs more explosion and cuteness

[TheArm05]

The jB route is actually harder imo since you have to delay the jB after you jump and delay the drill a little to finish the charge but it allows for the most optimal bomb combos. 2x bomb + 2x laser off good starter or just 2x bomb off decent starter.

 

I am not sure if I like midscreen bomb setups (at least from what I have found) you have to end your combos in either j.28a or 2c otherwise all the setups can be back teched but you lose a lot of dmg for doing this. Setup is ez tho just lay a bomb after doing either of those and 5a and the bomb hits meaty.

 

Best corner setups I have seen lay a bomb after the first bomb explosion and instead of activating it just neutral jump. Gives you time to do falling j.B then choose between j.28b or 2c for mixup.  Careful though this setup only works if no bombs hit before the one in the combo.  If a bomb starts the combo you have to end in a hard kd like the midscreen setup because any bomb after the first is air techable.

[Ryd']

For the jB route, start charging 8 right after you input 5c (the game won't let you jump cancel until 5C comes out), delay the jB a bit, and you can go straight into the drill.  If you're slow to charge 8, then you have to delay jB and pause before the 2A input.

[dere]

I am not sure if I like midscreen bomb setups (at least from what I have found) you have to end your combos in either j.28a or 2c otherwise all the setups can be back teched but you lose a lot of dmg for doing this. Setup is ez tho just lay a bomb after doing either of those and 5a and the bomb hits meaty.

 

The thing is I feel there's some characters that you really don't want the distance that flashkick creates, and even if they tech backwards at least you can keep the pressure up on them. For example, I would definitely try to avoid ending with flashkick against merkava unless it's gonna be very big damage since he beats you at the zoning game and closing the gap can become quite troublesome.

[sibladeko]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga_FmdPWKlo#t=6m30s

Probably a lot of you have seen this but in case you haven't here is some shenanigans.

Obviously Hilda is a prime candidate cause her fastest normal is so slow and her lack of reversals.

What has to be happening here is that every 5A is actually 5A~B and 5A~C pianos alternating.

So 5A~B (B input doesn't come out but is held down) sets off the orb, 2C release, 5A~C (C held) sets off orb, 2B release, etc.

That way the 61f charge is satisfied as you're just letting go of the versions every other explosion.

That being said my head hurts trying to make my hands do this.

[dere]

I've actually been practicing this today but I don't think you need to do it that way, what I've been doing is with both B and C held, release 2B and immediately hold it again, 5a detonate, release 2C and immediately hold it again, 5a, etc. I'm not fast enough at it yet but it seems like it would work the same way while being easier to execute.

[sibladeko]

I've actually been practicing this today but I don't think you need to do it that way, what I've been doing is with both B and C held, release 2B and immediately hold it again, 5a detonate, release 2C and immediately hold it again, 5a, etc. I'm not fast enough at it yet but it seems like it would work the same way while being easier to execute.

This is actually way easier by five factors thank you I can get a reasonable fraudelent version going!

[Master Chibi]

You DON'T have to start off practicing that combo.

 

There is the 2.9 one you can do, and instead of doing flash kick, you can just but down a bomb.

 

I think the combo stuff is meh, it's actually playing her game that racks my brain.

 

She has so much going on, do I want a prism out? But I'll have to wait a second to charge, that buttons gone. What if they decide to jump and I can't flash light because of prism?

 

It's fun, but kind of nerve racking.

 

Also, what's the fastest anyone here has gotten out a charge motion? I want to see how fast she can charge.

Mine is 53 frames.

I'd rather just learn it and get it over with. The execution / learning a BnB should be the easiest thing to get out of the way when learning a character but here it's the most difficult. Having played Guile in most every SF game and characters akin to the other stuff Vatista can do her neutral and such are kinda coming natural to me, as are the charge motions.

 

Fastest I've ever gotten for a charge is 43 I think. Or 49. Something of that sort.

 

Well, is not like the combos are difficult because the devs decided to do it that way just to piss off the players with "random execution barriers" , after all the optimal combos used in competition are found by the players, using the tools of the characters.

Vatista has a a good amount of manageable stuff to do and the difficult stuff is not impossible, it just need practice.

Saying that, i understand your frustration, i still can't do a lot of the pro stuff, fuck my old man hands

 

It's just the principle of the matter in that the execution necessary to play her at a base level is weird and difficult. Charging forward back or up down are not normal and  negative edging button presses for actual use in combos is also unconventional. It's kinda saying 'you can't actually play this character / be good until you can do A/B/C' instead of 'we'll make A/B/C the easy part and learning to play / fight with her is what will actually make you good' lol

[madigawadesperate]

someone teach me how to do this 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILOS2OyWigM

[sibladeko]

someone teach me how to do this 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILOS2OyWigM

 

I don't think that works anymore, but if it does, it's probably the same way the video I linked worked and the input method dere said...

Throwing an orb into an orb explosion while it's active will automatically detonate it...so he could just be alternating 2A[A] 2B 2C[C] (so releasing orbs and holding the button back down immediately to throw a steady supply into the explosion)

[dere]

If you do that now you get the triangle bomb explosion on the 4th bomb so yeah, RIP.

 

About Vatista charges, drill is 43 frames, bombs are 61 frames, everything else is 53f. All this according to JP wiki.

[zerosoulreaver]

I have been slowly learning Vatista and man it's a pain.  I notice her A drill charge after 5C> j B feels like you have to start to charge it during the very ending frames of 2C.  Now the only issue I have now is bombs, it just messes with me holding buttons to execute them. 

 

I'm used to playing charge characters but both charging and holding buttons is messing with me lol.  She doesn't feel like many other charge characters because to me her charges feel a bit longer than most characters I have played. Guile, M Bison , Venom, Leona all have very leniant charges imo.

[sibladeko]

...She doesn't feel like many other charge characters because to me her charges feel a bit longer than most characters I have played. Guile, M Bison , Venom, Leona all have very leniant charges imo.

I think her charges are closest to Street Fighter timings.  Guilty Gear and KOF however, probably have shorter charges.

[FerrellJ]

I think her charges are closest to Street Fighter timings.  Guilty Gear and KOF however, probably have shorter charges.

KoF charges are only around 30 frames, if I remember correctly.

 

 

I have been slowly learning Vatista and man it's a pain.  I notice her A drill charge after 5C> j B feels like you have to start to charge it during the very ending frames of 2C.  Now the only issue I have now is bombs, it just messes with me holding buttons to execute them. 

 

I was actually practicing this a lot today.  I found that most of the time, failure was due to either pressing down immediately after j.B or hesitating between the up charge and down input and losing the charge.  Whenever I remembered to delay both the j.B and drill just slightly, and make my drill input snappy, it worked with plenty of frames to spare (IIRC, a lot of my charges were upwards of 50 frames or so when it worked).

 

I don't think I was ever able to hit the buttons fast enough for the 2C 5C chain to fail so yeah, you should be able to start the charge almost right away.

[Ryd']

Was testing bomb oki setups without giving up too much damage, but there doesn't seem to be much.  The only thing that seems possibly feasible is:

 

2A 2C 5C jB A-drill 2C xx A-Crystal 2A 5C xx B-Crystal pause jB jC A-drill B-Crystal (3k damage)

 

Detonate with 5A

 

Things to note:

 

-I'm not sure how reversal safe this is.  Specifically, at best the bomb will trade with the reversal.  It was tested with a training dummy set to jump - executed at the tightest possible timing, 5A hits the dummy before it leaves the ground, so it's at least within a few frames of wakeup; not sure how long it takes to go airborne in this game.  Similarly, there might be enough time to be grabbed before 5A hits, though you should be able to circumvent this with a rising jA to pop the crystal.

 

-There's also an issue of spacing.  A-drill leaves you right on top of them, and the crystal is released a fair bit behind the opponent; the setup registers 5 hits on Linne (5A+4 hits from the bomb), so the initial part of the explosion will whiff.  That could be enough time for some reversal attempts to get away from the rest of the explosion.  Not really sure.

 

-Because it involves the jB > A-drill route, this can only be done on hit confirms fairly close to the opponent; doing jB jC rejump jA A-drill etc and attempting a two-crystal combo into crystal oki doesn't give you enough time to detonate for oki.   This works with the jA jB A-drill route, which allows for a little more freedom spacing-wise.

 

-Seems like teching away doesn't escape the setup; They're still in range of the explosion.

 

Otherwise, the best option seems to be something like

 

2A 2C 5C jA jB jC rejump jA jB A-drill 2C xx crystal (2.2k)

 

However, while this gives you more time to safely pop the crystal, back-teching seems to get them out of range of the explosion.

[TheArm05]

That first setup is pretty interesting. Doesn't really give up much damage for it either. I'll def learn it and try it in some matches.  Crystals trading with DPs is usually in your favor anyway since its ~1500 dmg to 1 hit of their dp and gives you space.

 

BTW I saw in a match vid someone doing midscreen crystal oki dash C for an ambiguous crossup.  Not sure how great it is yet and it can probably be disrespected but it looked cool as hell.

[dere]

I've been using this one:

5a 5b 2c 5c delay j.A j.B(H) A-drill 2c(H) release B 2a 2b release C, wait for them to fall a little, j.C j.B(H) land j.C A drill release B

 

Does around 3k and if timed right is confirmed reversal safe against Hyde, Eltnum and Akatsuki (didn't try against the rest but I suppose it'd be safe as well)

Only problem with this combo is that it seems really finnicky? The timing on the ender is character specific (I think some characters might fall faster? or maybe it's just a hitbox thing) and it gets even harder if you have to use j.B j.C instead of j.A j.B because of proration. And of course if you release the last bomb even a tiny bit too late you can get punished.

 

On that note I've been testing with dummies and it seems Vatista BNBs themselves are somewhat char specific in their timing. Practicing on Linne the j.A j.B and j.B j.C routes seem almost universal except j.A almost always whiffs on Nanase (it's still possible but you have to delay it a lot and sometimes drill will whiff) and j.B j.C sometimes whiffs on Sion. 2C OTG also has to be delayed against Orie, Merkava and Walden.

[sibladeko]

vs Hilda thoughts:

At high level, Vatista favor.

At low-mid level, Hilda favor lol.

I got blown up super hard by a friend's Hilda yesterday like 20 games, though it was 2 bar.

It wouldn't have helped my approach to the matchup though, I kept jumping into anti-airs and was afraid to play zoning game and my laser charge kept getting eaten.

Anyway today I was watching serikamo (French Bread's battle programmer for MB,UNIB,DFC) play Hilda and a really good Vatista called crazy_lemonmilk kept coming on and beating him (and was the only player consistently beating him)

 

Here's what I took away:

Always end your combos into double orb oki unless it will kill.  Hilda cannot deal with orb oki well.  Do not use the meter for EX flashkick enders.

Don't get discouraged if your laser attempts get stuffed a couple times by swords, it is not in Hilda's best interest to keep throwing swords.  You need to be very aware of your charge timing here, I'm still not used to the length so I kept whiffing.

Grounded [4]6B will put Vatista's hitbox below Hilda's swords on startup.

Don't shield! Hilda mid to fullscreen, it pushes her out and gives her space, and Vatista's normals are fast enough to mash on her w/o shield.

66C is amazing, is special cancellable into [4]6orb, held orb, FF, and can be chainshifted from for a full combo into orb oki enders.

Meter is used almost exclusively for EX laser and IW punishes on reaction to gaps in midscreen strings/jumps.

jAB can bait Hilda 3B anti-air.

In general, don't jump too much, Hilda has too many AUB moves, if it's on oki though even if she shields the last hit of jC you can just jump over her and jC again.  Remember a successful shield on the last hit of your jC will remove your ability to chain into 5A/2A on landing.