[UNIEL] Seth

[brett_]

I edited it... i meant 5B.. not 3B lol. It's pretty much the 2C BnB mixed with the 3C on CH. Im not really that good when it comes to creating combos... im better at expanding them than creating them so i apologize if this isn't "original"

Spent 15+ minutes trying to figure out how you were doing 3B there, but okaaaay....

 

 

 

3C CH > 2a whiff > 2C > etc combo is known. it's been in my combo notes for quite a long time, meaning its probably been posted somewhere here before in some shape or form

 

in general if you're going to post combos, 

 

post the actual damage, without vorpal.

 

if it's a super ender, post the non-super ender route.

 

It does 4339 dmg (4747 in vorpal). If you do the 5B > j.B > air backdash > j.6C > j.214A > IW ender route, it does 4295 dmg (4696 in vorpal).

 

If you do a dash C > orb > 6c ender without super, it does 3364 dmg (3692 in vorpal)

 

If you end in j.6C > j.214A > 214BB > j.214C, it does 3849 (4222 in vorpal) (3900/4279 w/o 5B j.B), with 623C ender its 3815 (4185 in vorpal) (3861/4235 w/o 5B j.B)

 

I HIGHLY recommend doing 5B > j.B for the j.6C super ender because doing j.6C is really annoying depending on the character, and you lose 50 dmg in order to make it work on every character and undroppable.

[o Nereus o]

Spent 15+ minutes trying to figure out how you were doing 3B there, but okaaaay....

 

 

 

3C CH > 2a whiff > 2C > etc combo is known. it's been in my combo notes for quite a long time, meaning its probably been posted somewhere here before in some shape or form

 

in general if you're going to post combos, 

 

post the actual damage, without vorpal.

 

if it's a super ender, post the non-super ender route.

 

It does 4339 dmg (4747 in vorpal). If you do the 5B > j.B > air backdash > j.6C > j.214A > IW ender route, it does 4295 dmg (4696 in vorpal).

 

If you do a dash C > orb > 6c ender without super, it does 3364 dmg (3692 in vorpal)

 

If you end in j.6C > j.214A > 214BB > j.214C, it does 3849 (4222 in vorpal) (3900/4279 w/o 5B j.B), with 623C ender its 3815 (4185 in vorpal) (3861/4235 w/o 5B j.B)

 

I HIGHLY recommend doing 5B > j.B for the j.6C super ender because doing j.6C is really annoying depending on the character, and you lose 50 dmg in order to make it work on every character and undroppable.

Alright.. ill keep that in mind when posting combos. And thanks for the info.

[mAceOfHearts]

Does 214 change the direction in which orbs must be blocked?

Also, for how long is he invincible during his 214 series? It seems to be completely random whether or not I can hit him out of it.

[Rikir]

Does 214 change the direction in which orbs must be blocked?

Also, for how long is he invincible during his 214 series? It seems to be completely random whether or not I can hit him out of it.

Orbs can be blocked either way. There is only one situation where they must be blocked cross up and thats when Seth throws the orb behind you and then teleports to that side.

214X series doesnt have very much invincibility. If hes visible you can smack him.

[brett_]

214X~A - hit him after he blinks with a long poke - Yuzu 2C, Gordeau 3C / 5C, etc. 

214X~B - hit him in the sky with something high reaching like Gordeau's 2C, Wald 2C, or jump and hit him rising with j.A assuming you guessed the side correctly (some chars can combo off of this, like Gordeau)

214X~C - just block and punish

 

214B / C naked can also be beaten with jump back rising j.A

[Rikir]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fU9wT3nV7k

Some silly Seth combo.

[brett_]

Tweeted about this already, but I forgot to mention I further optimized the ideal 2a 5b combo - I totally forgot that the 214AC(1) ender route I had listed didn't actually include a 623B. The full combo is:

 

2A > 5B > 5C > 2C(2) > 623B > 623A > 2B > 214BB > j.236A > j.214A > delay 214AC(2) > 6C - 2620 dmg

 

You can technically get the full hits of 214AC and then link to j.6C (easy) or 6C (very tough), but regardless it seems character specific - so TECHNICALLY you can actually get a little more damage from that extra 214AC hit. The only character that I've found it to be consistent getting 214AC full > 6C on is Vatista though.

 

You'll notice I wrote 214AC(2) and not 214AC(1). That is because technically 214AC is 3 hits, something I failed to notice. You can actually get 1 or 2 hits on the 214AC to hit, depending on timing, the normal way seems natural to get 2 hits - a single hit will only lower the damage by around 5-10 from what I've seen (it's very annoying to test).

 

On a side note, it seems like if done early in a combo, stuff > j.C > j.B does more damage than j.B > j.C. If anyone wants to further test be my guest. My assumption is that since j.C does more damage, it's better due to proration math. Or perhaps j.C just has better proration as well. This also only matters on a scale of like 10 damage or something too.

 

 

Lastly, I don't know if this has been known or not, but I was messing with an interesting midscreen unblockable setup that works even from 2A, and it's actually way harder to escape. It uses 100 meter and CS. You can do it from either combo:

 

2A > 5B > 5C > 2C(2) > 623A > 2B > 214BB > j.236A > j.214A > delay 623B > 9 > Orb Hits > ... 

OR

2A > 5B > 5C > 2C(2) > (623B) > 623A > 2B > 214BB > j.236A > j.214A > 5A > 3C > 9 > Orb Hits ...

 

once the orb hits:

 

.... > 236C > CS > Assault > j.6C > land > dash C > Orbs Blocked > j.214B Unblockable

 

There are a lot of midscreen EX Orb unblockables, since it's pretty easy to do ex orb, CS, and 6C knockdown to do stuff. Normally, however, they lose to back techs or delay techs or the fact that if they backdash, the orb won't be able to catch it.

 

The nice thing about this setup is since you're TK'ing the EX orb, it's placed horizontally so it can catch backdashes properly,

 

The other disadvantage of normal unblockable setups is that they lose to things like wakeup DPs or veil off. This setup does not, because you're meatying with dash C.  Meaty dash C will beat almost every reversal in the game other than 4 character's IWs and Nanase/Hyde's DPs (due to width). This includes wakeup Veil Off.

 

In addition, the EX orb is very far off the screen and hard to hit. Even if they DO DP you, the EX Orb will just hit them and you can generally combo off of it (something that you unfortunately cant do from the corner version). 

 

Basically if timed right the only thing this setup loses to is a properly timed guard cancel. 

[mAceOfHearts]

Thanks for the info, much appreciated

[brett_]

Since no one has really written out an actual guide for this character, I just cleaned my notes up and added some more explanations

 

http://tinyurl.com/sethguide

 

feel free to throw it up on the 2nd post or whatever if people want.

[Tigre]

You could put all of this info on the wiki too. Probably get more visibility and easier for people to contribute.

[brett_]

You could put all of this info on the wiki too. Probably get more visibility and easier for people to contribute.

 

The combos section on the wiki already seems to be stuff I wrote that someone plopped down there, so if anyone wants to do that for any of  the other information I've written, they're more than welcome to.

 

That being said, the document I've made is meant to be my personal review of the character, not something that can be easily compatible with the thoughts of others. There is certainly room to debate MUCH of what I've written.

 

The wiki, on the other hand, is not my personal space to prune and edit, however - it serves a different purpose than what my google documents are often for. 

 

Again, anyone who wants to sift through what I've written and throw it on the wiki is more than welcome to, as long as they're aware that what I've written is often subjective.

[Syklone]

Since no one has really written out an actual guide for this character, I just cleaned my notes up and added some more explanations

 

http://tinyurl.com/sethguide

 

feel free to throw it up on the 2nd post or whatever if people want.

Lol at "made of paper"

[brett_]

5C > 623B > Dash C > 623A > 2C(1) > 214AC > 6C > 236B > j.214A > 214BB > 22 > 2C(1) > 3C > Orb Hits > 6C seems to do more than the previous 5C > 2C > 623A combo. I already forgot the damage on it, will recheck later on, but its over 3300 iirc. Certainly more than 3200.

 

3C CH > 2A whiff > 2C(2) route still does more, but this can be done from non-CH starter. 

 

note that the 2C(1) > 3C > 6C ender here is used - it improves damage significantly in this combo but it doesn't seem to for many others. Using this ender for the traditional 3200 5C > 2C combo puts it at 3201 instead (lol), and using it at the end of the 3C CH combo actually reduces the damage slightly, in this case due to SMP on 3C is my guess. 

 

My assumption is that if you did dash C in your pre-214AC series, then 2C > 3C will extend damage compared to the SMP'd Dash C ender. 

 

Will test later with raw Dash C starter and recheck damage to see if that stays consistent.

 

I also found a really easy midscreen UB setup that goes into dash C oki like the one I wrote above, using the same 2C > 3C ender concept:

 

standard bnb into 6C > j.214A > 214BB > 2C(1) > 3C > TK EX Orb > CS > j.6C > dash C oki > Orbs Hit > Unblockable. Haven't fully tested it but hopefully it works along the samelines as the 2a starter.

[S.D.]

Great notes Brett, there's a bunch of stuff that helps a lot, especially the match up notes, just a couple of things I'd like to point out.

 

 

Essential BnB #6: Comboing off Command Throw

A/B Command Throw > CS > land 2C(1) > 214CC > etc

Can also fit in Dash C > 623B > 214AC > etc after CS

 

If you fastfall and just do a raw 214AC, and then continue the combo, you'll actually do more damage so, I think it's better to omit the 2C(1)? Unless you want to get the meter I guess.

 

 

Another thing is that you mentioned this alternate route to combo after the command grab.

 

Can also fit in Dash C > 623B > 214AC > etc after CS

 

Are you fast falling and then doing dash C or just waiting until Seth lands? I end up crossing up with dash C (I was only able to get that combo once so I'm trying to find a way to pull it more consistently)

 

 

As for comboing off a B dive in the corner (Something that always gave me a lot of trouble) I think I found an optimal combo:

j.214B > CS > 6C > 2C (1) > 214A4C > 6C > 623B > 623A (Orb hits) 6C...

 

The reason why you want to do 214A4C is to end up really really close to the opponent (You won't cross up if you're next to the corner) and connect the 623B > 623A part of the combo, this is great because it sets up an orb in the corner and you get the oki to go for an assault C > j.A > j.214B setup.

 

 

Fully Optimized Combo from 2A 5B into 6D Knockdown (Best as of 9/7/2014)

 

Small typo, it should be 6C, right?

[brett_]

Great notes Brett, there's a bunch of stuff that helps a lot, especially the match up notes, just a couple of things I'd like to point out.

 

If you fastfall and just do a raw 214AC, and then continue the combo, you'll actually do more damage so, I think it's better to omit the 2C(1)? Unless you want to get the meter I guess.

 

 

Another thing is that you mentioned this alternate route to combo after the command grab.

Are you fast falling and then doing dash C or just waiting until Seth lands? I end up crossing up with dash C (I was only able to get that combo once so I'm trying to find a way to pull it more consistently)

 

 

As for comboing off a B dive in the corner (Something that always gave me a lot of trouble) I think I found an optimal combo:

j.214B > CS > 6C > 2C (1) > 214A4C > 6C > 623B > 623A (Orb hits) 6C...

 

The reason why you want to do 214A4C is to end up really really close to the opponent (You won't cross up if you're next to the corner) and connect the 623B > 623A part of the combo, this is great because it sets up an orb in the corner and you get the oki to go for an assault C > j.A > j.214B setup.

 

Small typo, it should be 6C, right?

 

1) Ah, yeah I haven't gotten around to damage values on a lot of those combos - I wasn't aware that omitting 2C actually increases the damage a bit. The actual combo is just the Dash C version, but I have that combo listed as the basic, or easy version. I think I'd still suggest 2C because it's a lot easier to execute, and if you want to omit 2C you might as well just do Dash C afterwards, since that's also really easy. I'll consider making a note somewhere about it, but honestly everyone should just be Dash C'ing. I might just make the Dash C version the bnb rather than making it an optional extension. As a taking off point though, 2C seems more introductory.

 

2) I generally do not fastfall after CS cancelling from command grab. If you're whiffing Dash C it just means your timing is tight. If you're hitting crossup Dash C, you can just delay your 623B input to get it to come out the right way. I'm not really sure what would be giving you trouble, but perhaps just not dashing so long - just input it as 6 6+C and it should be very easy to connect.

 

3) What you're describing is a j.214B CS pickup into standard corner combo, which is described somewhere else in the combo section I think (I SHOULD have it there, if it's not, I must have just forgotten about it or it might have gotten jumbled up somewhere).

 

[Edit: Ah I just had it listed in the unblockables section only]

 

In any case, though its not important, another reason I haven't really bothered paying that much attention to exact values in many CS combos is due to the fact that it depends on how much GRD you have at the time of CS. Corner j.214B > j.6C > 2C(1) > etc into corner bnb does indeed do ~100 more dmg or MORE, if you have SIX or more GRD blocks when you CS. If you have less, j.B > j.C > 2C does more damage. Regardless the damage difference isnt too big, and j.6C is universal whereas j.B will whiff in the corner on some characters, so it's pretty much player preference. My guide simply says all of them are possible, so I leave it up to the player to choose which they want.

 

You don't actually need to do 214A4C. If you're at the corner, 214AC puts you in the exact same spot, unless I'm tripping out somehow.

 

4) Yes

[o Nereus o]

I was going to post this yesterday.. but i forgot lol. Here's a Seth setup just for shits and giggles:

 

5B > 5C > 214CC > 6C > j.236B > j.214A > 214BB > 22 or 2A+B > Dash C > 6C > j.236C > CS > j.214A (whiff) > 623C

 

Had the CPU do this while i used Gordeau. With Gordeau... i teched up and did 623C. At times my 623C wouldn't come out but when it did... Seth beat me out clean with his 623C.

 

Can someone explain to me why this works? Is it because Seth's 623C came out first? Or that Gordeau doesn't have that much invincibility during his 623C?

 

Also, i've been meaning to ask you Brett. In the wiki.. don't you think it may be a good idea to list the best combos from Seth's starters? Like for example, what to do when you hit someone with 2C etc.?

[brett_]

I was going to post this yesterday.. but i forgot lol. Here's a Seth setup just for shits and giggles:

 

5B > 5C > 214CC > 6C > j.236B > j.214A > 214BB > 22 or 2A+B > Dash C > 6C > j.236C > CS > j.214A > 623C

 

Had the CPU do this while i used Gordeau. With Gordeau... i teched up and did 623C. At times my 623C wouldn't come out but when it did... Seth beat me out clean with his 623C.

 

Can someone explain to me why this works? Is it because Seth's 623C came out first? Or that Gordeau doesn't have that much invincibility during his 623C?

 

Also, i've been meaning to ask you Brett. In the wiki.. don't you think it may be a good idea to list the best combos from Seth's starters? Like for example, what to do when you hit someone with 2C etc.?

 

Really don't know why you feel the need to write out the entire bnb notation ._.

 

Still pretty confused about what this is supposed to be because there's no real description. I'm going to assume that the j.214A > 623C is supposed to be blocked? You should probably designate where the combo actually ends though. Unless this is all a combo, but based on your comment afterwards it doesn't seem like it.

 

I can't really help you with this because I'm having trouble understanding what this setup is.

 

@wiki: The mizuumi wiki? I haven't written anything there. Someone else just took one of my random posts regarding basic seth bnb theory and copy/pasted it, at least thats what it seems like.

[o Nereus o]

Really don't know why you feel the need to write out the entire bnb notation ._.

 

Still pretty confused about what this is supposed to be because there's no real description. I'm going to assume that the j.214A > 623C is supposed to be blocked? You should probably designate where the combo actually ends though. Unless this is all a combo, but based on your comment afterwards it doesn't seem like it.

 

I can't really help you with this because I'm having trouble understanding what this setup is.

 

 

It's really just a habit of mine in terms of writing the bnb lol. And the j.214A is supposed to whiff. You can cancel j.214A on whiff with 623C. If you do the setup correctly.. Seth's 623C will come out first.. then Gordeau's, and Gordeau will get beat out.

[brett_]

It's really just a habit of mine in terms of writing the bnb lol. And the j.214A is supposed to whiff. You can cancel j.214A on whiff with 623C. If you do the setup correctly.. Seth's 623C will come out first.. then Gordeau's, and Gordeau will get beat out.

 

Can't you just recover from j.236C rather than needing the j.214A whiff?

 

If they block 623C the setup doesn't really seem to be very useful - we might as well just be talking about the legitimacy of meaty 623C, but why do that when you have Dash C.

[S.D.]

1) Ah, yeah I haven't gotten around to damage values on a lot of those combos - I wasn't aware that omitting 2C actually increases the damage a bit. The actual combo is just the Dash C version, but I have that combo listed as the basic, or easy version. I think I'd still suggest 2C because it's a lot easier to execute, and if you want to omit 2C you might as well just do Dash C afterwards, since that's also really easy. I'll consider making a note somewhere about it, but honestly everyone should just be Dash C'ing. I might just make the Dash C version the bnb rather than making it an optional extension. As a taking off point though, 2C seems more introductory.

 

2) I generally do not fastfall after CS cancelling from command grab. If you're whiffing Dash C it just means your timing is tight. If you're hitting crossup Dash C, you can just delay your 623B input to get it to come out the right way. I'm not really sure what would be giving you trouble, but perhaps just not dashing so long - just input it as 6 6+C and it should be very easy to connect.

 

3) What you're describing is a j.214B CS pickup into standard corner combo, which is described somewhere else in the combo section I think (I SHOULD have it there, if it's not, I must have just forgotten about it or it might have gotten jumbled up somewhere).

 

[Edit: Ah I just had it listed in the unblockables section only]

 

In any case, though its not important, another reason I haven't really bothered paying that much attention to exact values in many CS combos is due to the fact that it depends on how much GRD you have at the time of CS. Corner j.214B > j.6C > 2C(1) > etc into corner bnb does indeed do ~100 more dmg or MORE, if you have SIX or more GRD blocks when you CS. If you have less, j.B > j.C > 2C does more damage. Regardless the damage difference isnt too big, and j.6C is universal whereas j.B will whiff in the corner on some characters, so it's pretty much player preference. My guide simply says all of them are possible, so I leave it up to the player to choose which they want.

 

You don't actually need to do 214A4C. If you're at the corner, 214AC puts you in the exact same spot, unless I'm tripping out somehow.

 

4) Yes

 

1) 2C is more intuitive yeah (Expecially since that's our starter after an orb hits so it just feels more natural, doing the raw 214AC/214[C] isn't that difficult really but it does feel rather unnatural at first and it seems like the opponent will be able to tech out of it, I just wanted to point out the slight increase in damage, you know just some small thing to keep in mind.

 

2) Gotcha, that's what I thought, I always fastfall (It feels more natural to me) and I end up way too close and cross up with dash C, I might also have to work on delaying the 623B a little bit, I'm just conditioned to me muscle memory of other combos.

 

3) I could swear I had to do 4C to connect 623A more consistently, it really feels that way I'm positive that Seth ends up in a different position too, I'll double check later tonight.

And for sure I also tend to favor 6C near the corner because Assault j.B > j.C feels like it might drop on certain characters (But I do prefer the later for midscreen CS extensions after dive B.)

[Syklone]

So worst personal match up? For me it's gotta be Gordeau. That damage. That range. Owie

[S.D.]

I can't really pick one.

I just don't know how and when to get in against a good Hilda, Vatista? Same as Hilda but she also has flashkick and instant overheads she can just disrespect your oki (Blink A helps a little but it can also be risky), Eltnum drops from some Dash C combos and her 2B is very good plus I'm not very patient when it comes to her long blockstrings (Just like Carmine), Linne just drops from 6C combos (In the middle of a match I just can't time the microwalk 6C > dive A properly)

Gordeau, yeah, raw damage, range, really good options, high low grab mixups... other than that the rest of the match ups are fine (I feel like the Waldstein matchup isn't that bad, even if he can destroy your orbs from almost full screen, then again I haven't had a lot of experience against good Waldstein players)

[o Nereus o]

Can't you just recover from j.236C rather than needing the j.214A whiff?

 

If they block 623C the setup doesn't really seem to be very useful - we might as well just be talking about the legitimacy of meaty 623C, but why do that when you have Dash C.

That's why i said "for shits and giggles" because it's not necessarily useful.. but it's a cool setup to just mess around with. 

[brett_]

3) I could swear I had to do 4C to connect 623A more consistently, it really feels that way I'm positive that Seth ends up in a different position too, I'll double check later tonight.

And for sure I also tend to favor 6C near the corner because Assault j.B > j.C feels like it might drop on certain characters (But I do prefer the later for midscreen CS extensions after dive B.)

 

i was doing it with and without 4C and the positions looked the same after 6C knockdown - but maybe it's character specific.

 

@Vatista: Hate this matchup too - I've had most success trying to just look out for when Vatista's go for j.C and anti-air them. I think if they're knowledgeable about the matchup they'll tend to lean more towards air to air j.C at mid range because for some sad reason it hits so far out that it will blow up your jump back B orb > air backdash cancel (hits you even while you're air backdashing cause of the range). Still haven't had amazing success dealing with proper stein lockdown in that matchup - my current things I'm working on vs it aside from yolo 623C are proper shielding into TK j.214C and jump back j.236A air backdash cancel into air assault > stuff. if you time Dash C right it will beat flash kick but its annoying. On pressure, throwing out assault to go over 2C occasionally feels pretty key to making them respect your pressure. 

 

@Hilda: Hate this one too, but I think I just need to study her frame data a bit better and be more on point on when to move forward. Dash C makes me sad in general. If they tend to use fireball, you can air block it then j.236B before landing to set orbs safely.

 

The matchup I personally dislike the most is Carmine, because it feels the most like you need to just get lucky and ridiculously outplay them, one in which it feels like there aren't many actual "answers" to.

[S.D.]

Alright I was able to try that corner 4C I explained before and while doing the corner CS combo normally works once in a while, the timing is weird and the opponent might tech before 623A, if you do 4C you end up closer, the orb ends up closer and the enemy doesn't get time to tech, I'll dig up my capture card and show an example of what I mean.

 

 

Delaying the 623C worked wonderfully after dash C, thanks Brett, I felt like I'd miss the cancel window if I delayed it too much, but that wasn't the case.

 

Another small note:

 

 

623A > CS > Dash C > 623B > 214AC > 6C ~ etc - 3353 with Dash C ender

I like this way more over what I usually do after a blocked dash C > 623A crossup (I just 214AC right away, the risk of dropping that is high too)

 

I found out that you can actually increase the damage if you squeeze a 623A > 2C(1) after 623B (Not only that but that also means there's no risk of dropping 214AC since you cancel right after 2C, you don't have to time if after 623B and of course you can still 6C after the move)

 

Edit:

It seems like this extended route isn't possible after a command throw > CS > Dash C starter (Or 623C >CS). They tech before 6C, and it doesn't seem like a j.6C makes it work.