ShinsoBEAM Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 Not sure what you mean here, each of those strings work just fine into her usual combo routes. Perhaps you're not inputting 5[C] and J{C} cleanly. Dang you're right, no idea what was wrong with me last night.
brainwasherdetective Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 Make sure you cancel 2C into 5[C] by inputting 5C the moment the second hit of 2C connects. Learn the earliest time you can input the jump cancel for the J[C] links, and delay the jA whiff after to avoid connecting it, so you can land 5B. Iv noticed you can use "2C 8~j[C] 214C land 5B" to negate proration effects (thanks Melty Blood Sion technology), I wonder if this allows you to combo into 5B when J[C] jA whiff wouldn't...? edit: apparently it doesn't help enough to make a difference. i tried: 2A2A 5B2B 2C j[C] JA whiff ~land 5B ...(5B won't connect) 2A2A 5B2B 2C 8j~[[C] j214C land 5B 5[C] ...(5B connects, 5[C] won't though)
Tenryuga Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 Not sure what you mean here, each of those strings work just fine into her usual combo routes. Perhaps you're not inputting 5[C] and J{C} cleanly. I was doing some testing and 2A > 2B actually does cause this combo to drop: ..2C>5[C]> 421B > J.BC > 66C > 22B > 66C > 22B > 66C. The last 66C will not connect. If you plan to use this string you need to have some other combo for Linne, Hyde, and Hilda.
UmaiCakes Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 Just don't go for 6B do the version that works on smaller characters. 6B 2C 5[C] 421B j.B j.C d.C 22B d.C 22B d.C reload 2276 damage 6B 2C j.[C] j.Awhiff 5B 5[C] 421B 6 22B d.C 22b d.C reload 2277 damage Edit: the second combo is counter hit only, forgot to turn it off. The first one works fine so use that one Speaking of 6B, charged 6B allows you to go into a full damage combo route... 6 > whiff 2A > 2C > j.[C] > whiff j.A > 5B > 5[C] > etc (CH/Shield break) 6 > whiff 2A > 3C > 8j.[C] > dj.[C] > whiff j.214A > 5B > 5[C] > etc I find myself using it alot more than normal 6B...it doesn't feel like its all that much slower, but leads to more damage and is more advantageous on block since 6 -> 2A is better than 6B -> 22A 2A2A 5B2B 2C j[C] JA whiff ~land 5B ...(5B won't connect) 2A2A 5B2B 2C 8j~[[C] j214C land 5B 5[C] ...(5B connects, 5[C] won't though) Pretty sure any combo with an A starter doesn't allow the 2C j.[C] route. Even with 2A > 2C > j.[C], the 5[C] will drop
UmaiCakes Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 So I was able to activate debug mode on my game, and the debug text shows startup/active/recovery framedata + frame advantage...also shows frame advantage for for whiff cancels and oki situations. I can't guarantee its correct or anything, but this is the frame advantage stuff I've recorded on Eltnum so far: Normals: 5A: -2 2A: -2 5B: -6 2B: -8 5C: -16 5[C]: -14 5CC: +3 2C: -5 3C: -10 6B: -9 6: -9 66B: -5 66C: -5 Specials: 22A: -1 22B: +8 236A: -4 236A(enhanced): +1 236B: -7 236B(enhanced): -2 236C: -10 214A: -8 214B: -11 214C: -9 623A: -15 623B: -25 623C: -32 421B: -15 421C: -18 TK j.214A: +7 B+C: -12 [b+C]: -7 Common whiff cancels: 2C > 5A: -3 5C > 5A: -3 5[C] > 5A: -1 2C > 2A: -4 5C > 2A: -4 5[C] > 2A: -2 Also some useful numbers for startup frames: 5A: 4 2A: 5 5B: 7 2B: 6 5C: 12 2C: 12 6B: 26 6: 32 623A: 4 623B: 4 623C: 2 236A: 10 236B: 12 236C: 11 421C: 6
QewQew Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 Can I be added to the skype group please? skype name: hitagiyanagi
Wokker Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 For those that want an invite to the Eltnum skype chat, go ahead and add me: md_wokker Type a message like "Eltnum chat" or something so I know.
Chumaralupa Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 According to "that" frame data, I should never reverse beat for pressure, I should just keep gatling'ing into 5CC into more pressure. I always thought 5CC was a bad idea on block.
Wokker Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 5CC is nice since it pulls them closer and you can 22A or go for a 2B. Has anyone been able to get any good damage off a 236C air-hit(When you catch them doing stuff in the air)?
stickystaines Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 5CC is a bad idea if you are predictable with it and your opponent knows how to deal with it, since 5CC can be jumped out of or mashed in between. You can do 5C 214A to catch people jumping out though, or 5C 5A then try to anti air their jump or or bait a reversal.
Sakaku Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 22B being +8 is insane, lol. Thanks for the data, really appreciate it.
stickystaines Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 So I was able to activate debug mode on my game, and the debug text shows startup/active/recovery framedata + frame advantage...also shows frame advantage for for whiff cancels and oki situations. I can't guarantee its correct or anything, but this is the frame advantage stuff I've recorded on Eltnum so far: Normals: 5A: -2 2A: -2 5B: -6 2B: -8 5C: -16 5[C]: -14 5CC: +3 2C: -5 3C: -10 6B: -9 6: -9 66B: -5 66C: -5 Specials: 22A: -1 22B: +8 236A: +1 236B: -2 236C: -10 214A: -8 214B: -11 214C: -9 623A: -15 623B: -25 623C: -32 421B: -15 421C: -18 TK j.214A: +7 B+C: -12 [b+C]: -7 Common whiff cancels: 2C > 5A: -3 5C > 5A: -3 5[C] > 5A: -1 2C > 2A: -4 5C > 2A: -4 5[C] > 2A: -2 Also some useful numbers for startup frames: 5A: 4 2A: 5 5B: 7 2B: 6 5C: 12 2C: 12 6B: 26 6: 32 623A: 4 623B: 4 623C: 2 This is great. Could you also find the startups of the other supers? Would be nice to know if you could punish certain things. Especially with 236C at far ranges.
Tenryuga Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 Thanks a lot for those frames. Someone mentioned that these frames don't point toward reverse beat for pressure; Why is that? Also is 4f startup standard for 5A's? Was wondering if we could still outpoke someone after the -1 from 22A. Sent from my BlackBerry 9780 using Tapatalk
Wokker Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 Is her 5A really 4f? Doesn't vorpal make it even faster? 4f 5A and then vorpal boost would make it like 3f, which would be insane
Sadeyo Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 but so many negatives and I mean like -5+ on many of her attacks or links. I'll just have to adjust my approach accordingly because I have been punished for stupid things on my end, this explains why I don't win many poking games with her. Maybe that's her trade for such momentum and normals/specials that cover half the screen.
Sadeyo Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJ6z1C8zVQY&feature=youtu.be Enjoy the matches and critique as you see fit, I know of the minor mistakes but I'll gradually work on them. I really like to get her to a competitive level one of these days and provide more videos.
stickystaines Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 Dunno if this is common knowledge, but i've concluded that if you have trouble landing 66C after 22B because they seem too far away, then they need to be closer to the ground when you hit 66C. For example i tried this combo against Sion midscreen: 5A 2C 5[C] 421B j.B j.C 66C 22B 66C 22B 66C If jump straight away after the 421B, once i hit the j.B j.C, you have to do the 66C while they are quite high and makes the next 66C after 22B difficult. But if i wait a split second after the 421B then try it, they are closer to the ground when you hit 66C which leaves them closer to you when they hit the floor. Just something if people are having trouble with it and don't know why. I originally thought you just need to be closer but i don't think hat makes as much of a difference compared to the opponents height.
stickystaines Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 About the framedata: 236A is definitely not +1. It's about -2 and 236B is more than -2. Just tested that by the jump-on-block technique, so don't know the viability of others. I was able to punish Sion's 66C with 5A but not 2A, so i could believe the frame data about those 3.
Chumaralupa Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 Yeah even if the frame data from debug isn't reliable, knowing that 5a is a faster poke than 2a is good enough info. I can't really see 236A being plus either.
stickystaines Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 Anymore uses for vorpal 5a? There is the 421B loop combo, which doesn't seems much worth it. 2A 2B on someones wakeup to catch some backdashes. Or 5A on someones wakeup, see if they super and then whiff cancel your 5A into DP/super. The last one seems the best use to me, especially with characters that only have meter reversals, like Merkava, Waldstein and Gordeau
Wokker Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 The last one seems the best use to me, especially with characters that only have meter reversals, like Merkava, Waldstein and Gordeau Pretty much this. Id rather hit them with a whip move or 2B as meaty tho.
Tenryuga Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJ6z1C8zVQY&feature=youtu.be Enjoy the matches and critique as you see fit, I know of the minor mistakes but I'll gradually work on them. I really like to get her to a competitive level one of these days and provide more videos. I would say you should work on hitconfirming and blockstrings. Remember that you are supposed to 2C > 5[C] or 2C into whatever your prefered BnB is. I suggest starting all your blockstrings with a normal into 2C to train those; The reason being the fact that 2C is 2 hits and gives you ample time to confirm if you landed it or if it got blocked and decide what to do from there. I'm still working on those things myself and starting my strings off like that helps; Especially against mashers.
RoanYagyu Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 Ghetto frame data testing results that could be off but ill post anyways cause maybe itll help someone with something? 5A: 6F -3 2A: 7F -3 5B: 9F -7 2B: 8F -9 5C: 13F? 2C 13F? -6 3C 10F -10 236A -5 with enhance bullet +1? 236B -8 with enhance bullet -2? 22A: -1 22B +Da god? 623A/B 9F 623C 4F 236C 13F -8 ALL LIES ;_;. Srry
Sashi Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 Are we consistent with how we're reading frames? I'm assuming we're going by first active frame.
brainwasherdetective Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 Pretty sure any combo with an A starter doesn't allow the 2C j.[C] route. Even with 2A > 2C > j.[C], the 5[C] will drop Sorry i should have been clearer, i wasn't recommending these combos, but using them to show a theory in practice involving j214C fastfall " 2A2A 5B2B 2C j[C] JA whiff ~land 5B ...(5B won't connect) 2A2A 5B2B 2C 8j~[[C] j214C land 5B 5[C] ...(5B connects, 5[C] won't though)" I used a string where "j[C] land X 5B" would definately whiff, to see if using j214C (instead of whiff JA or j214A) would give shorter recovery on landing and allow for better followups, much like the more advanced Sion CurrentCode combos. And it does work to reduce landing recovery... But the j[C] X j214C fast fall technique doesn't seem to be relevant in UNIEL, i can't find a combo where this becomes usefull. Perhaps someone else will. tl~dr : this is not Melty Blood
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