[P4AU] Marie Gameplay Discussion

[Surf]

Thanks for the info. So DP causes shock in Cloudy huh. How long is the shock exactly. Is it a short duration like cloud or does it last awhile

 

Also for 214CD do you have to use it both times for the unblock. Or can you do 214D but activate with 214CD. I'd imagine that wouldn't be unblockable though. 50 sp may be a lot for an unblockable but like I mentioned earlier, eye starter was granting 2.8-3k unoptimal damage. And imo 50 sp isn't expensive if you factor in Snow and Awakening meter bonus. But I'm sure theres some setup that will procure enough time for the eye to go off by itself and also hit meaty. Shit would be silly

 

 

So when she activates 214C/D she goes into the animation again I've noticed. I don't think it will be the go to oki tool most likely because 214C~214C will get you DP'd. But it still looks like an amazing tool to set up upon their knockdown to keep them in place so you can space yourself away and set up. But I can imagine rolls to be a problem.. but those can be stopped upon proper spacing. Really need the character

[RurouniLoneWolf]

Also for 214CD do you have to use it both times for the unblock. Or can you do 214D but activate with 214CD.

 

I'm also curious about this as well. If we can only do it from the SB summon, that means it'll only work with the farthest eye summon, which sounds right to me. If ASW learned anything from the Kokonoe fiasco, it'll probably go beyond the edge of the screen in the corner as well. There will probably still be some useful setups with it though but proper spacing will be important.

 

So when she activates 214C/D she goes into the animation again I've noticed. I don't think it will be the go to oki tool most likely because 214C~214C will get you DP'd.

 

Hmmmm, true. Oki is out of the question now. But, we might be able to use it similar to my idea with the cloud as a means to extend pressure if we can keep them blocking for the 4 second timer. I'm pretty fine with tools to extend pressure if we don't end up with any tools for oki.

Lets see, other than what was covered already, particular tihngs of interest to me from this breakdown were

 

• 5AA and 5B putting her airborne creates some interesting opportunities in terms of OMC blockstrings. But to be honest, I'm more curious to know her normals that you can jump, hop and dash cancel.
• The vacuum on airborne opponents for 2C will make it useful in combos
• j.C might be a good air combo ender or maybe the air bag swing special. Needs testing.
• The Awakening Super having an option to make the magatama start coming from the other side of the screen really increases its ability to control the screen compared to Mitsuru's Mabufudyne
• SB versions of supers only increasing damage is somewhat disappointing since I prefer utility but we've got some good SB Specials so it'll probably be better spent there.

 

Looking at the supers themselves, Magatama feels like it might be good for a full screen knockback to allow us to setup an obstacle course for the enemy while best super name in the world is good for changing the weather to something more favorable to us. The freeze effect for snow might prove to be useful on its own, though I'm not quite sure how currently. Maybe as a combo extender. The paralysis effect can be pretty useful too though, depending on how long it lasts.

Thanks for all the info Justice and AtomicOreo Just 1 more week until she's released and then you guys can start to try her out.

 

[Justice7541]

Doing 214D > 214C+D will just set both eyes out. You need to do the same input twice to detonate the eye.

Should also mention that you can airdash, jump, etc.after the recovery on her bag smash special. Ground version also groundbounces so it's possible to do 236B > airdash j.B > stuff although I haven't figured out a way to combo into 236B raw to begin with unless you've already got something else out, since the startup is kinda slow. I think 236A/B on block > airdash j.B will be a legit pressure option though.

[Surf]

The freeze effect for snow might prove to be useful on its own, though I'm not quite sure how currently. Maybe as a combo extender. The paralysis effect can be pretty useful too though, depending on how long it lasts.

 

 

I feel that some setup can be vreated after they're frozen from the super. Maybe set up an 214C/D > roll for a crossup while they're breaking out of the ice. Have a couple other ideas

 

236A/B > OMC (right before the second hit and as you land) > 5A might be a good fake high into low setup.

[AtomicOreo]

The most legit pressure though is 236A > air dash > j.C. She recovers really fast from her j.C if done close the the ground, and it's a pretty big button. Even though it's not an overhead, I still think it's better and more reliable to use for pressure (for midscreen pressure at least). Her 236B has too long of startup and can get snuffed out by a 2B on the way down on the second hit of it.

The 214 C/D in the corner does not go off-screen. I had my friend confirm this for me the other day before we started looking for tech with it. We also found out that you can activate her magatama super in the air. Only downside is that she falls to the ground and seems to be unsafe all the way. The persona stays in the air until you press C or D to activate it.

 

Only way I can think of to combo into her 236B is in the corner. She recovers fast enough from 236C to do sweep > 236B. Pretty sure it's starter dependent, but I think it would go like 236C > sweep > Igor > j.2B > j.B > 5BB > sweep > 236B > stuff. Also, she can't do 5C > 2C into specials. It has to be 2C > 5C into anything. That includes sweep as well.

[Surf]

But her j.C doesn't look like it places the opponent in much hit/blockstun. Is she still at a reasonable amount of frame advantage if its done low to the ground. 

 

And shit. No 5C > 2C > 214C/D then. I was getting pretty excited about that. But omitting the 5C, can she do 2C into specials or is it just not special cancelable

[Justice7541]

She can do 5C 2C 2B for whenever that may or may not work.

[Surf]

2C on air hit sends them back down and causes emergency tech, so if she could cancel into 214C/D the eye would be right ontop of them. 2B would just send them back into the air wouldn't it

[Justice7541]

I don't think the positioning would work out that well anyway. Even C eye set starts out kinda far and 2C puts them right in front of you.

[Surf]

Can she do 2C > 5D at least

[AtomicOreo]

Can she do 2C > 5D at least

Yeah she can do that. j.C is preeetty safe. Multiple attempts to DP or reversal after j.C just end up getting blown up by 5A. She recovers almost instantly from it. Because she moves forwards when she does j.C, you don't even have to bother air dashing when doing it to someone in the corner. If they roll/jump/dp, they'll get hit by the tip of her j.C and you'll be close enough to hit them with 5B afterwards.

[AchedSphinx]

50 SP for an unblockable isn't much really when you consider Mitsurus use 50 SP to do j.B > OMC > j.B to win them rounds. If that 50 SP will win you the round, then go for it.

[Surf]

Yeah she can do that. j.C is preeetty safe. Multiple attempts to DP or reversal after j.C just end up getting blown up by 5A. She recovers almost instantly from it. Because she moves forwards when she does j.C, you don't even have to bother air dashing when doing it to someone in the corner. If they roll/jump/dp, they'll get hit by the tip of her j.C and you'll be close enough to hit them with 5B afterwards.

 

Sounds pretty damn silly. If anything it can probably be stuffed out before she makes contact because it looks to have pretty slow startup

 

About 2C > 5C, watching the challenege archive again it looks like 5D is slower than I remember. Can you check if she can be DP'd out of the setup

[AtomicOreo]

50 SP for an unblockable isn't much really when you consider Mitsurus use 50 SP to do j.B > OMC > j.B to win them rounds. If that 50 SP will win you the round, then go for it.

Very true, but it never hurts to try and find setups that won't require the whole 50 though. That's what I'm really going for mainly because she does the same animation when she sets it out AND when she activates it. I wanna make sure people don't roll, jump, or dp out of it ya know? And it really isn't much when you consider Marie's snow SP gain. 5 per tic is pretty amazing.

 

The startup on 5D or j.C being slow? j.C doesn't actually seem to have that slow of startup. The only part about it that's slow coming out is when it moves forwards. It'll always do 3 hits and then fly forwards afterwards. 5D on the other hand has a ton of startup. I feel like that button shouldn't be used for anything other than spacing. I guess it could be used for oki when against the right character or in the right situation for it though.

[Surf]

5D probably wont be good for any sort of oki. Can't think of much else to run oki with except chocolate. Which looks like it would be great to use. Just need to be able to procure an ender which will grant enough frame advantage for chocolate to come out and hit rolls/delay tech. Should be something she could do. If that's possible then that's all the oki she would probably need

 

214C/D needs experimentation. It sets off by itself eventually so a route that results in the opponent teching or getting up into the eye as it opens just might be possible somehow.

[Buttface]

An alternative to chocolate oki could be popping a cloud to keep them from jumping away on wakeup

SB present summons both chocolate and a cloud, so I get the feeling we'll be using that a great deal

[Surf]

Well you would shut down jump as an option but the opponent would still have a plethora of other options. Roll, DP, press something, character specific stuff, etc. 

 

Think about knockdown in the corner into cloud and you sitting there. The opponent could just get up and press something which would result in your blocking. You get hit, clouds gone. They don't jump, they don't have to worry about it. And cloud descent is pretty damn slow in the corner. Looks slower than its descent midscreen. Chocolate travels on the ground and ontop of them when active so if it stops both roll and delay tech, it should stop almost all the opponents options on wakeup. And they'll have to block the 6 hits. 

 

SB present resulting in chocolate and 2 clouds in Cloudy sounds really good. And you'd have the chance to also set up an eye or two. We'll just have to see how everything turns out

[Buttface]

The cloud seems like it would be better if coupled with a throw

It'll beat waiting and dodging, and if they try to jump away they'll get tagged by the cloud

At worst, they'll tech the throw and you'll be back at neutral

If you think they'll go for a DP, you just bait it and punish instead of a throw

[Surf]

We''ll just have to see what her oki route(s) actually ends up becoming

[Justice7541]

5D probably wont be good for any sort of oki. Can't think of much else to run oki with except chocolate. Which looks like it would be great to use. Just need to be able to procure an ender which will grant enough frame advantage for chocolate to come out and hit rolls/delay tech. Should be something she could do. If that's possible then that's all the oki she would probably need

214C/D needs experimentation. It sets off by itself eventually so a route that results in the opponent teching or getting up into the eye as it opens just might be possible somehow.

SB Eye opening by itself isn't unblockable, just so you know. It's only unblockable if you actually trigger it.

[Justice7541]

Double post lmao

[Surf]

SB Eye opening by itself isn't unblockable, just so you know. It's only unblockable if you actually trigger it.

I didnt mention SB. I said C/D

[Celerity]

Was watching a Marie stream tonight, some things I noticed (you guys might know most of this already, but whatever):

 

-Her DP is ridiculous. Like, maybe the best DP in the game. It's big enough to counterhit some moves from starting positions, and the startup is extremely fast; faster than Yu's at least. The active frames on the outer hitbox seem shorter than the inner one, so it's easier to win trades the closer they are to you (vs other DPs for example).

 

-The jack-in-the-box is her FC move, and the SB version is very quick (looks like there's no actual SB version, but you can kara the SB gift into it. Unsure if this actually changes the startup). None of the versions have any sort of invuln, at least not head/body.

 

-Traps can be manually detonated. The detonation has pretty slow startup, but very fast recovery, so it's possible that they could be good for pressure or making stuff safe.

 

-Gift can be feint canceled, but I'm not sure how practical this is. There didn't appear to be any kind of stance cancel shenanigans with it.

 

-AoA definitely seemed to be >30F startup and very obvious "ass attack" animation, which is a shame, because I was hoping ambiguous AoA mixups behind licks/arrows might be a thing.

 

-The unblockable (from SB trap detonation) is easy to set up in the corner, but damage scaling is massive. So far looks like you can only get 2k-2.5k from it, although you can crank it further if you use OMB to unscale and go into a ground combo.

 

-Regular supers seemed pretty meh at first glance, very unsafe and limited use in neutral. The AWAKENING super on the other hand, is basically Litchi's OD. It stays on the screen foreeeeever. At least long enough for 2 free mixups. I need this in my life.

 

-Her colors are the best, and her glasses are an eyepatch. Why would you not pick this character.

[TransientFaith]

Just gonna throw in some random stuff here for now:

 

DP puts her in airborne state so you can only cancel out of it into 1 of her 2 air-capable supers. Magatama super (the personaless one) or the awakening super

 

Traps are hella plus on block so it makes up for the slow activation

 

Air normals have pretty horrendous vertical hitboxes... don't expect too much from them for jump ins. Though you can still air dash > air turn > j.B fairly reliably

 

As you prolly figured, you can make AoA completely safe with chocolate present

 

Going to be interesting seeing how people combo with her for sure considering most of her specials don't see very combo-filler friendly

[DaGodhand]

I've been training with her throughout the week so here's some random stuff off the top of my head:

 

-Her DP and throw grant shock status during cloudy weather.

 

-I thought about the feint canceling as well but couldn't really find a practical use for it. It's there but there's too much recovery imo. It's nothing like 3S/SF4 Makoto.

 

-Awakening super has potential but the biggest downside is if the opponent is able to hit the persona then all the beams go away. Beams will come from one side then come back the other way (in rainy weather they'll come back a third time). Hitting C shoots a beam starting from your side; vice versa for D. D version of the super shoots the beams automatically.

 

-236236A/B: Despite being low damage compared to some 236236C/D follow ups, they're really good as reversals. A version I really fast. It's also invincible until just after she completes her pose. B version is the same but has longer startup before the active frames and more damage. SB version combines the damage from B and speed from A. This super also gets a damage boost from sunny weather.

 

-236236C/D: Like 236236A/B, this super also has a bit of invincibility. She's completely invulnerable until she finishes her spin/card throw. D version has longer startup before the spin and more damage. SB version combines the damage from D and speed from C. Hold a button to determine the weather that results. Switching from one to another results in a "level 1" element attack. Staying on the same weather gives a "level 2" element attack. Sunny level 2 does more damage. Cloudy level 2 grants shock status. Rainy level 2 does damage on par with sunny level 2. Snowy level 2 freezes, which is great for continuing pressure or going into 236236C/CD [A].

 

-5AA > 2C is a frame trap.

 

-5BB OMC can be used to set up a high/low mixup with j.A/5A afterward.

 

-Can dash cancel 5C. Not sure how useful it'll be since she ends up being negative afterward on block/normal hit.

 

-2C has a great hitbox (especially vertically). She can hit a standing opponent from just under half screen. Though it's air blockable it still covers a wide vertical range. If it does hit an airborne opponent, they'll be hit to the ground towards you.

 

-236A/B/SB cause ground bounce but the air versions do not, which makes the grounded version perfect for comboing into 236236C/CD. The only exception to this I've found is the SB version during a correctly timed AoA C combo (it's actually one of her challenges). Doing a somewhat late j.B > j.C > jc > j.B > j.C xx j.236AB will cause the ground bounce like the ground counterpart. You can tell if it was timed correctly by the increased hit-stop on the bouncing hit.

 

-I've found Igor (214A/B/SB~C) to be the most combo friendly special DURING juggles just for the relaunch. It won't hit crouching opponents nor will it combo on normal hit to a standing opponent. During a juggle the only way I've found to reliably combo into it is to use sweep before it for the soft knockdown.