[CT] Carl Clover Tactical Discussion/Questions/Help

[Zoogstin]

If you've ever seen Chaz's I-no you'll know this guy knows how to play a character he loves. Kyle I know how you feel. SOOOO many wirez!!

[Mikachiru]

I don't see why people aren't taking Chaz serious. =/

If this man says something. I advise you to listen. He rarely post... and I know exactly why.

Who's Chaz?

Noone said Rachel v Carl was easy. I can win cause im a smart player hands down. Plus i play Alzarath who is the best Rachel and Top 5 in this country in BB so there is no other Rachel other than him that is seeing me. Y are you ppl talking like this is impossible?

It's not impossible, it's just hard. Honestly, I don't care if you're smart or not or if you fight Alzarath or whatever. That's not the issue. If people are struggling against Rachel, it must mean they're dumb, right? That's ridiculous.

Lemme say this now: Everyone has a different style of playing. Period.

Whether you're smart or not doesn't make much of a difference. It's whether you are able to find some hole in there game plan and use it to your advantage. Of course, brainless mashing will get you nowhere, but you don't need to be a damn rocket scientist to win. It's just that most Rachels follow the same pattern that rapes Carl. Also:

If you play Carl and you cant win his bad matchups seriously you should start looking for another char, or start counter picking....nah just look for another char. If you dont like doing throw loop i hope you dont play Carl seriously. Throw loop is broken and hilarious. I like it. LOL.

Well, not like everyone on this forums goal is to be a top player but at least thats what i thought these forums were for.

...goes back to raping Rachels...

This pisses me off. :/

[feri]

I never said its impossible. What I MEANT was if your equally skilled players you should be having a hard time winning (read chaz not impossible) otherwise they either suck or aren't fighting Carl properly. But thats okay you can have your ego and keep your info. If anyone is serious enough they wont need your info.

[Mikachiru]

I never said its impossible. What I MEANT was if your equally skilled players you should be having a hard time winning (read chaz not impossible) otherwise they either suck or aren't fighting Carl properly.

But thats okay you can have your ego and keep your info. If anyone is serious enough they wont need your info.

Amen to th- wait, who's Chaz?

[Zoogstin]

who's Chaz?

Mynus

[Mikachiru]

Oh.

[Kyle]

Will be soldering tonight. >_>

[4Corners]

ITT: Bitches have no respekt

[Mikachiru]

ITT: Bitches have no respekt

Respect for who...?

[4Corners]

Someone could correct me, but hasn't Chaz given us a few universal loops?

[Mikachiru]

I don't know. He made me feel like I was being looked down on. :/

Mostly, this:

If you play Carl and you cant win his bad matchups seriously you should start looking for another char, or start counter picking....nah just look for another char.

Yup, because if you can't win, you won't win. And apparrently, learning how to deal with bad match ups are pointless because if you won't win. So go learn how to play someone easier, like Jin or V-13. :/

[4Corners]

I'm pretty sure he meant that you need to stick with him until you learn your bad match-ups better, or to just give up on Carl. Rachel is pretty much penance for what we do to almost every other character. Own up or go home. He's not personally attacking anyone. Just telling people to stop bitching about the match-up and learn it. Example - Without wasting a LOT of wind and a pole nearby/super meter, Rachel isn't going to be doing over 3k per combo. Learn to block, respect the pumpkin, and frustrate her until she does wind mix-ups. Like zoogs said, if your blocking isn't up to par, GGs, but if it is, you might be facing a Rach with only 1 wind stock left. Combo into loop ASAP, make her burn the wind to get out, and loop that hoe. Also, my ground loop is the shit, guize. Start using it vs her fat ass.

[soujiro seta]

Mikachiru had somethign very important to say:

Look at the Rachel forums everyone.

To beat Rachel, Carl HAS to outplay her. PERIOD. Therefore, You should know Rachel's options and know how to guard them.

If you find yourself saying:

Wait.. that special cancels?

WTH- That jumps on block.

That's an Overhead?!?!

You've lost already.

The problem though with this matchup is that, as you said, you have to outplay her, but rachel is S tier. Even if you are better than the rachel you're fighting you can still lose simply because of how good rachel is as a character, and not because the person you fought played very well. Carl with the throw loop is A tier, except in the match vs rachel it's "rachel vs carl without the throw loop", who happens to be among tager and hakumen in the tier list. So you have to use such a low tier character, to beat arguably the best character in the game. This is the same with tager vs nu, a great tager can lose to a subpar nu simply because of what nu can do to tager.

I see it as one of those, "You hope your opponent makes a huge mistake and doesn't know how to recover matchups", cause if both of you are close in level, and both of you almost play a perfect game, the rachel will still have no problem dismissing you. You have to play miles ahead of the rachel to win, but when you're close in skill and she doesn't mess up, what do you do?

I'm not saying this matchup is unwinnable, but we need to remember it's carl without loop vs rachel. There is only so much you can do to her, and if the rachel player is really good, you have to play way better than she does to even have a chance, not to win.

Look at this,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBPtfPDfj9c

it feels more like you're navigating an obstacle course of death rather than trying to fight her.

[feri]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQCvUatGGgY&

an idea for a reset had carl not had throw loops.

[Kyle]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQCvUatGGgY&

an idea for a reset had carl not had throw loops.

With a slight altering of timing it would be UB. Here's an idea tho.

Rather than breaking the opponents guard with 2]D[ and Carl's low. Use 3]D[ & Carls overhead. This will keep your opponent standing and open for back to back resets. =)

Or you could go into Raise the roof loops & use 3C for the KD/Oki.

[Mikachiru]

The problem though with this matchup is that, as you said, you have to outplay her, but rachel is S tier. Even if you are better than the rachel you're fighting you can still lose simply because of how good rachel is as a character, and not because the person you fought played very well. Carl with the throw loop is A tier, except in the match vs rachel it's "rachel vs carl without the throw loop", who happens to be among tager and hakumen in the tier list. So you have to use such a low tier character, to beat arguably the best character in the game. This is the same with tager vs nu, a great tager can lose to a subpar nu simply because of what nu can do to tager.

I see it as one of those, "You hope your opponent makes a huge mistake and doesn't know how to recover matchups", cause if both of you are close in level, and both of you almost play a perfect game, the rachel will still have no time dismissing you. You have to play miles ahead of the rachel to win, but when you're close in skill and she doesn't mess up, what do you do?

Tiers are pointless. They don't mean much to actual gameplay. Who gives a crap about S-tier or Tager tier? No matter what you say, tiers don't influence someone's game. It's skill. Carl goes even with Ara and Nu, but accorrding to the tier list, he's supposed to lose. I've beaten a few (bad/lazy) Rachels, but the tier list says I'm supposed to lose. But I don't. :/

[feri]

With a slight altering of timing it would be UB. Here's an idea tho.

Rather than breaking the opponents guard with 2]D[ and Carl's low. Use 3]D[ & Carls overhead. This will keep your opponent standing and open for back to back resets. =)

people f'ing jump so much that i'd never want to go for the UB ;(

But yes I can see the UB potential.

3d does make nirvana kinda laggy but i'll see if it fits in later.

[soujiro seta]

My point was-

With a good enough DEFENSE. You can beat Rachel. It's like Eddie & ABA in GG. You will guard, A lot.

By outplaying your opponent and knowing Rachel's options. You can have a high enough defense to prevail.

This match is No where near as bad as Tager vs Nu & Rachel.

I edited my post, sorry if you missed it.

I didn't mean it was as bad as tager vs nu, but as in it is a similar scenario, the carl has to be better than the rachel, or he has to bring his almost absolute best. If the rachel knows carl's options, and the carl knows rachels options, then the rachel is at an advantage. They both know what to look out for, but rachel is the better character, so the match already starts out in her favor.

The problem with rachel vs carl is she can break your guard very very easily, and once that happens half your life is gone. You're gonna have to do something sooner or later, and if you saw the vid I posted, she can chip/kill you from far away. So not only can she make you come to her, up close and personal is still in her favor. Carl having the lowest health, guard libra, and damage output by himself doesn't help either. Also she's moving around the place all the time, and you need nirvana to hit her, but it can be hard if she is keeping an eye on both of you.

The matchup is winnable, but can be very difficult, and at times you can almost feel hopeless.

[soujiro seta]

Tiers are pointless. They don't mean much to actual gameplay. Who gives a crap about S-tier or Tager tier? No matter what you say, tiers don't influence someone's game. It's skill. Carl goes even with Ara and Nu, but accorrding to the tier list, he's supposed to lose. I've beaten a few (bad/lazy) Rachels, but the tier list says I'm supposed to lose. But I don't. :/

Actually tiers aren't pointless, and mean a whole lot. If char B has a 7-3 matchup in his favor against char A, then if they both played a perfect game, so to speak, then B would win 7 games out of 10.

The problem with tier list is that it doesn't take into account individual player effectiveness, such as "Did the player controlling character B punish character A when he had the opportunity", "Did player A mess up on his execution", "Was player B a bit too defensive and had he been more offensive would he have won", etc. The tier list is somewhat of a "how hard/good player A has to play in order to beat player B".

Yes you have to factor in player effectiveness into every match up, but the punishment carl can give rachel after she makes a mistake vs the punishment rachel can give carl after he makes a mistake is too drastic. Plus, you factor in that it's "carl without throw loop", and things just get worse.

[feri]

Tiers are pointless. They don't mean much to actual gameplay. Who gives a crap about S-tier or Tager tier?

I do.

Tier lists are the opinions of players (we follow the current top Japanese players). You can say whatever you want but they are not joking when they say one character seriously beats up another in a particular match up... or for example Nu is much better than Tager overall.

You can choose to disagree... But i'll argue your supplementing the tier difference gap with skill.

[Kyle]

First off tiers are different than match-ups. Secondly- I'm not going to allow this conversation in the Carl Clover general discussion thread, or anywhere in the Carl section to be honest. Take it to the general discussion (Gamefaqs lol) threads. Post will be edited for humor. Thanks.

[soujiro seta]

First off tiers are different than match-ups.

Secondly- I'm not going to allow this conversation in the Carl Clover general discussion thread, or anywhere in the Carl section to be honest. Take it to the general discussion (Gamefaqs lol) threads.

Post will be edited for humor.

Thanks.

Sorry, I didnt mean to derail the general discussion thread this much, there is a matchup thread after all.

lol, btw what's wrong with Gamefaqs? I go there for lols all the time, they're really funny guys over there.

[Mikachiru]

I'm with Kyle. I don't feel like debating about pointless stuff like tier lists. This isn't the place to do it and it's really crowding up the general discussion area. Moving on. Does anyone know a corner loop...?

[ZONG_one]

I'm with Kyle. I don't feel like debating about pointless stuff like tier lists. This isn't the place to do it and it's really crowding up the general discussion area. Moving on.

Does anyone know a corner loop...?

Throw loop: j.B+C>8]D[>airdash B+C>8]D[>5B>j.C>8]D[>Repeat.

On throwbreak: Clap hits>forward dash>5B>j.B>j.C>8]D[>j.B+C> etc.

Punch loop: j.C>5B6B>6]D[>IAD j.C>5B6B>6]D[>IAD Repeat.

You can always mix these up. (In regards to the timing, and replacing certain j.B's/j.C's or 5B6B/5B>5C and such. It usually all works.

All ]D[ attacks refer to when it hits, not when you input the command.

[Mikachiru]

Don't know what Oki means. I think it's like a set-up for when they get back up, right...?^^;;