[XRD] Sin Kiske Gameplay Discussion "Playing with Poles"

[KentoHardRok]

Well I actually feel the exact same way, minus elphelt. I feel that if you can stay out of the corner she is pretty harmless. And a really strong zato is scary.

[Robawtninja]

Just wanted to comment on the Sol matchup which I feel is very difficult. 4-6 at least. He wins at basically all ranges but Beak Driver range. If he IB's your 236K, you are forced to respect him unless you choose to frame trap him with delayed 236H but those guesses are never in your favor since you're just constantly consuming calories. Unless you're already on top, his normals are much faster so they will usually always win. And his pressure is difficult to get out of. You have to play a very well spaced game in order to win this matchup. Also beware of 2D, it's one of his best normals against Sin because fast startup and super low profile. 

[Dreiko]

While the Sol MU is annoying, the backdash and the range of your normals make it easy to kinda space him out. It's nowhere near as bad as Elphelt though since if she corners you in shotgun stance you have little to do while for Sol the DP is usually a good enough answer. Also, Sol's hitbox allows for the good combos to be performed while Elphelt has the single worst one for Sin combos and forces you to do worse ones.

 

 

Sol has to take a lot more risks to approach since 236H beats GF and air approaches can get 6Pd while Elphelt just tosses a gliding grenade in the air and is in.

[KentoHardRok]

This changes in 1.1 right? The grenade not only disappears when she is hit but will be destroyed by 236h, right?

[Dreiko]

This changes in 1.1 right? The grenade not only disappears when she is hit but will be destroyed by 236h, right?

The grenade goes away but shotgun stance is still undpable and unbeatable without spending resources of some kind or making a crazy risky read. Also I don't think her hitbox will be adjusted. Sin is stronger overall so the MU will be better but still bad.

[FKGunBlaze]

Also I don't think her hitbox will be adjusted.

 

And here I was jokingly saying that you must hit her boobs in order to actually hit her...

[Eshi]

I don't think there's a tier list, but I definitely have a personal list that I'm working on for when I will pick Sin and when I'll pick Venom.

 

Match-ups I love with Sin: Potemkin, Slayer, May

Okay match-ups: Venom, I-no, Zato, Chipp, Elphelt

Annoying match-ups: Leo, Sol, Ky, Axl

Garbage match-ups: Millia

 

No idea about Bedman & Ram.

[Dreiko]

I don't think there's a tier list, but I definitely have a personal list that I'm working on for when I will pick Sin and when I'll pick Venom.

 

Match-ups I love with Sin: Potemkin, Slayer, May

Okay match-ups: Venom, I-no, Zato, Chipp, Elphelt

Annoying match-ups: Leo, Sol, Ky, Axl

Garbage match-ups: Millia

 

No idea about Bedman & Ram.

Definitely disagree about Axl Leo and Chipp, Millia and Chipp are the same kind of problem, one just dies a little quicker. Bedman is easy and Ram is in the OK group next to El and Zato.

 

 

Leo should never be able to get in on you and if he does backdash solves him pretty easily. Just 6P and 236H for days, Leo has no safe way of closing in. You can poke him through his fireballs. Axl can do nothing in neutral since chains get poked out by 236H for free. Ky and Sol are annoying but not too much. I'd probably bring El up with them but she doesn't have a dp so I can understand that.

 

Ky's stun dipper is probably the most annoying move in the entire game for Sin since it low profiles and becomes active from f5, outspeeding everything it doesn't low-profile. Even 236K sucks here since it won't become active right off, though this is fixed in 1.1. You have to hard call out stun dipper with 3K (which is a very slow move) or just completely dodge it. Overall though, Ky's projectiles all lose to 236K (even his super ones and the ones that have gone through his seals) so in neutral Sin has the upper hand, the problems arise when you're cornered.

 

Chipp though, hooo boy. You really are too slow to deal with anything he does and he can alpha blade under 236H. His 2D is almost Sol levels annoying, he can teleport and punish your eating from anywhere. He's a pain. Granted he dies in 2 combos but Sin is especially horrible at poking out of pressure so against the master of forcing pressure on you, it's a real pain if he gets in even once.

[khmxspider]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ar0kUvGcvjM

i've made a video of things you could do after a knockdown and do j.HS instant overhead on their wake-up, i would need some feedback about it. might help find more stuff for sin.

probably need to find mix-ups after 236HS as ender, since its how most of sin combos end.

[KentoHardRok]

I'd love to see this in gameplay because sin is obviously slower than most of the other cast and it's pretty hard to mix someone up like that, especially someone with a vertical attack... i.e. Leo or ky

[Zephyrion22]

I posted something similar ago, and it's clearly a good shenanigan but nothing else : you pull it once to surprise your opponent and steal a round and then never use it for at least the next ten matches xD : it's completely blown up by everything but can pseudo safe-jump sloppy DPs, So yeah, be really careful with this !

[KentoHardRok]

When I play someone who is good, typically i don't crowd on wake up, especially if they have some shoryuken (anti-air) type move. I use Sin's reach to keep control but I think it comes down to play style and who you are playing. Obviously adapting is important.

 

I was playing someone the other day who saw that I wold try to catch him with 214s on wakeup because the reach is insane, well he responded with blitz guard, luckily I was far enough he couldn't do much with after the second time he did the same thing I knew he would jump on it right away and when the last round came, I attacked, he blitzed then I YRC and punished him. To Zephyrion's Point, even if your strategy works once then they feel like they know what your going to do and have a counter, adapt and its still good...

 

I guess I could have said option selects are important

[Eshi]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ar0kUvGcvjM

i've made a video of things you could do after a knockdown and do j.HS instant overhead on their wake-up, i would need some feedback about it. might help find more stuff for sin.

probably need to find mix-ups after 236HS as ender, since its how most of sin combos end.

jH has like 2 frames of block stun, a good player will air throw you out of all of this.

[Destin]

Iirc jump s low links to 2h.

[Zephyrion22]

Since I had time, and nothing better to do, I finished the beginning ( yeah I know) of what I intended to do to complete Sin's wiki and one-sidedly posted it. I don't know when I'll have time to do the rest so any willing person to update combos and other topics is welcome. Also, as I'm not a native speaker, feel free to correct any mispelling or weird phrases ! Advice on how to complete/correct some of the points is also welcome, so feel free to send a message on my DL for all of this stuff !

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Just a quick point, in the strategy section it says you cannot PRC the hunger state when the calorie gauge is empty, but this is not the case. At the very least, I have definitely PRCed in situations where I wasn't paying attention and ran out of food.

[Destin]

You can prc the beginning of hunger state, not the middle/end (you get the big red X)

 

I don't think ky's yolo slide is that big a of deal dude.  IB the second hit, then you get a free punish.  With 50% meter, it's a scary punish that usually closes out the round depending on how good your pressure is.

[RentalBlackout]

Since I had time, and nothing better to do, I finished the beginning ( yeah I know) of what I intended to do to complete Sin's wiki and one-sidedly posted it. I don't know when I'll have time to do the rest so any willing person to update combos and other topics is welcome. Also, as I'm not a native speaker, feel free to correct any mispelling or weird phrases ! Advice on how to complete/correct some of the points is also welcome, so feel free to send a message on my DL for all of this stuff !

 

Your English is great dude, perfectly understandable. But yeah, like TITANIUM BEAST!! says, I'm pretty sure I have PRC'd hunger multiple times before. Also, in the part about normals, you missed out a few of them, unless that's what you intended to do. Otherwise though, pretty solid stuff, keep it up.

 

EDIT: Destin cleared up the part about PRC hunger.

[Zephyrion22]

Your English is great dude, perfectly understandable. But yeah, like TITANIUM BEAST!! says, I'm pretty sure I have PRC'd hunger multiple times before. Also, in the part about normals, you missed out a few of them, unless that's what you intended to do. Otherwise though, pretty solid stuff, keep it up.

 

EDIT: Destin cleared up the part about PRC hunger.

 

I'll correct this soon !

For the normals, yup I only put normals that have something notable to boot for the neutral game (good range and/or good reward on hit). That's why things like 236H rapid fire or 2P weren't included. I also didn't include moves that could be used but are outshined by others (2K is outshined by 5K in spacing due to hurtbox and range, jD is outshined by the other air normals for air-to-airing and air-to ground in neutral due to its speed and angle etc. I completely forgot 2D, jH and 236236P, and will add them though.

This is a personal choice, and of course, I may have forgotten specific uses for x or x moves. I'm not doing this just for the sake of doing it, but to help any Sin or potential Sin player. For the sake of accuracy and lisibility (this is meant to be understandable for most people), any meaning contribution or feedback is appreciated and encouraged !

[Destin]

Whoa 236k is GREAT in neutral. Good range, low profile, fast, +3, crazy dage on ch.

[Dreiko]

You can prc the beginning of hunger state, not the middle/end (you get the big red X)

 

I don't think ky's yolo slide is that big a of deal dude.  IB the second hit, then you get a free punish.  With 50% meter, it's a scary punish that usually closes out the round depending on how good your pressure is.

They only ever yolo slide when they can rc it if they're good and they get in without risk for it which is a huge problem since Sin sucks when people are in on him. It's even worse than Grand Viper since it's only 5f to startup. You have to legit hard call out slide with attacks such as 2S or 3K which can often be too slow to hit.

[Destin]

I mean, you can just be moving in such a way that it isn't gaurenteed to force your block. It's a good tool for sure, and helps against sin because it contests his 236h so well, but having ky spend 50% meter to get in on you then rush down with the meter reduction just isn't all that scary.

If I had to choose what are slide does to him, or his to us, id take our side. And sin doesn't really suck when people get in on him. Granted his normals are 5f, but he has a serviceable dp that forces space baiting and a fantastic backdash, scary throw with meter, and a good super if enough space is given.

[Destin]

I have a question for everyone.  What is the most solid counter to BR at long range in pressure.  236H Cuts the gunflame and the BR, loses to the BB iirc.  I think stand P tags the br, in time to block the gunflame and BB, so buffer in the h.  6p probably beats BR the latest, but also probably gets tagged by the gunflame.

 

I'm thinking of using 5p as my standard, but wondered if you guys had anything different.

 

Also, is there anywhere we have made a list of characters that can be hit by:

 

2D -> slide

 

and

 

stab -> slide.

 

Also great would be character you can put in j.s j.6h pressure on block from a vault in, and which you can't.

 

Finally, some characters seem much harder to anti air into standard 5S, 5h, 6h combos.  Faust especially almost always whiffs the 5h.  Something to keep in mind I suppose.

[Dreiko]

I have a question for everyone.  What is the most solid counter to BR at long range in pressure.  236H Cuts the gunflame and the BR, loses to the BB iirc.  I think stand P tags the br, in time to block the gunflame and BB, so buffer in the h.  6p probably beats BR the latest, but also probably gets tagged by the gunflame.

 

I'm thinking of using 5p as my standard, but wondered if you guys had anything different.

 

Also, is there anywhere we have made a list of characters that can be hit by:

 

2D -> slide

 

and

 

stab -> slide.

 

Also great would be character you can put in j.s j.6h pressure on block from a vault in, and which you can't.

 

Finally, some characters seem much harder to anti air into standard 5S, 5h, 6h combos.  Faust especially almost always whiffs the 5h.  Something to keep in mind I suppose.

Wait, people are doing gunflame into BR in a long range setting? Would br even reach you? I'm not sure I understand the situation you're asking about. If they're doing BR and GF in a way where BR will hit you, you should have had enough time to 236H through the GF and hit them or make them block it at least so they shouldn't be able to br without YRC or something and if they're doing GF yrc I don't see them doing BR after it.

 

 

2D>236K fails on slayer and I-no I believe.

 

6P antiair always fails to go into 5H on Elphelt and Faust unless you 6P them when they're barely off the ground, Venom also has this issue but a bit less. You wanna directly jump cancel the cS there.

[Destin]

Wait, people are doing gunflame into BR in a long range setting? Would br even reach you? I'm not sure I understand the situation you're asking about. If they're doing BR and GF in a way where BR will hit you, you should have had enough time to 236H through the GF and hit them or make them block it at least so they shouldn't be able to br without YRC or something and if they're doing GF yrc I don't see them doing BR after it.

 

 

2D>236K fails on slayer and I-no I believe.

 

6P antiair always fails to go into 5H on Elphelt and Faust unless you 6P them when they're barely off the ground, Venom also has this issue but a bit less. You wanna directly jump cancel the cS there.

Sol, if he has exhausted a good number of options in his current run of pressure is going to have to use S and HS in his gatling string.  Usually if done at a decent range he may cancel the (usually S, sometimes HS) into BR, gunflame, feint, 2S, or BB.  In these situations, the BR can be spaced in such a way as to give him frame advantage, or at least neutral frames.  But with a 3f 5K, it might as well be + frames.  So, most of the time you can try to jump out here, or beat the BR.  Not like, 5s gf br, more like, 5s, then GF/BR/BB/feint, ect.

 

2D>236K also fails on Chipp.  Thanks for the input, maybe if we get an exhaustive for each ill post it.  If I had more time I would run the tests myself, sorry that I don't guys!