NagorbMan Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 Are there any vids online for the 5h loop? I remember seeing them at one point but I can't find it anymore besides the potemkin only one. The setup is rather specific isn't it?
Eshi Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 Are there any vids online for the 5h loop? I remember seeing them at one point but I can't find it anymore besides the potemkin only one. The setup is rather specific isn't it? Not that specific. You just have to start the juggle as high as possible, it works on a bunch of characters. The number of reps depends on character weight & how high in the combo you start the loop as they keep getting heavier. Unless you're talking about the midscreen loop? I know it works on more than just Potemkin but it's much fewer.
Robawtninja Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 Definitely useful. There are two versions of the 5H loop. One that uses some calories and one that doesn't. You just need to be in the corner. Obviously the one that uses 5H > 623S does more damage. They're pretty flexible and you can end whenever. Calorie variant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LOq_8VLi7Y Non calorie variant (after he does the super): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjzelqX_J6M
RentalBlackout Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 I think the Potemkin midscreen one also works on Faust, but the timing is a little different. I don't think it works on Bedman, if it does, it's really hard.
Dreiko Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 5H loop is nice and all but while the voltic dein oki off of it is indeed nice, it's still not worth the meter AND the damage you sacrifice to set it up imo. I would rather just eat in the end of a full-damage combo and just YRC the food and go from there, even with voltic dein you still just do just one solid mixup (runup2K/jD is prolly the hardest mixup Sin has and even that is almost twice as slow as something like tk bad moon which costs the same or less resources) so I prefer to just keep myself fed and keep the resources there for converting off of hits in neutral rather than try and push Sin to be a char he's not and risk too much in the process. Of course if one little touch will seal the deal then it's good to go for it but in most cases Sin will kill you wayyyy before you enter that area with a huge damage combo so I don't often find myself in a situation where the 5H loops are even relevant.
Zephyrion22 Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 5H loop is nice and all but while the voltic dein oki off of it is indeed nice, it's still not worth the meter AND the damage you sacrifice to set it up imo. I would rather just eat in the end of a full-damage combo and just YRC the food and go from there, even with voltic dein you still just do just one solid mixup (runup2K/jD is prolly the hardest mixup Sin has and even that is almost twice as slow as something like tk bad moon which costs the same or less resources) so I prefer to just keep myself fed and keep the resources there for converting off of hits in neutral rather than try and push Sin to be a char he's not and risk too much in the process. Of course if one little touch will seal the deal then it's good to go for it but in most cases Sin will kill you wayyyy before you enter that area with a huge damage combo so I don't often find myself in a situation where the 5H loops are even relevant. I mostly agree with you but I just need to correct a few things - As you said 5H into Voltec okizeme is not always the route to go for. It's good for when your normal combo won't kill and you need that little extra kick to end the match, but it is also quite useful in some situations to avoid the threat of a burst at a point in our combos when we are low on calories.It can get really painful in a few matchups to get that needed refill, so going for 5H loops to force a burst out of them while keeping calories may be a good idea -While Voltec Dein Okizeme is limited, people forget that there is far more to it than one single 50/50 : when you do rising jH, you can do either jH(1) just before falling or go low. and get a combo from it. You can also airdash for multiple overheads . after a 2K/Sweep, you just have time to do either run rising jD>214S into 5H loop in the corner, or just throw another low. If you use all of your options, it is as bad as anything Milia can pull off on you and is definitely a mixup to be feared when the opponent is running low on life. It's situational but useful enough you may want to learn it, especially for beefier characters than can take on Sin's tremendous damage output. It is completely true that Voltec oki is not something you throw out mindlessly,though, and is definitely not a goal in itself for a neutral-oriented char !
xlolxlolx Posted March 18, 2015 Posted March 18, 2015 5hs loops arent very good because the damage vs meter and burst your opponent receives is pretty bad past the 2nd 5hs
Robawtninja Posted March 18, 2015 Posted March 18, 2015 Not really related but now that everyone is throwing out the fireball super, just wanted to point out it's spelled "Voltec Dein" and not some of the things that's been said here. That's what the command list says and yes even the Wiki is mispelled. Sorry if that was nitpicky and off topic. 5HS loops and Voltec Dein in general are incredibly underused and really underrated. 5HS loops are there for the purpose of using less calories and meter building. If you ever found yourself in a position to punish in the corner but had 3-4 calories you would be passing up over 100 dmg because you chose to go into a simple punish of sweep or something. It also gives you the benefits of adding damage, conserving calories to use after Voltec, building meter to use Voltec and in general, AND racking up the hitstun to perfectly push yourself to a distance to throw Voltec Dein and get a good setup going. You are by no means giving up something more for something else less. Pretty sure every Sin player in this forum can agree that Sin's mixups are really poor. So what's the point of playing to his weakness and not augmenting it? You can keep the meter or RC into big damage but after that then what? Now you're left to pressure and that's it. Sin is not scary to block and no one that plays this game would ever say that they can't block Sin. Zephyrion already covered the various layers of 50/50s that you can do. With Voltec Dein you can do actual 50/50s that aren't easy to block that could lead into another guess and any hit will lead into really solid damage. Oh yeah you also gain a good amount of meter because you're not comboing off RC which puts you in Tension Gain decrease. You can use this meter to do whatever you wanted to do before or perhaps do another VD setup if you conserved enough calories before and get enough meter. It's pretty clear that if you were ever put into a situation that you had to do 5HS loops or had the chance to do a Voltec Dein setup, it's silly to not do them. Why handicap this character any further instead of pushing his limits with the tools given? Sin isn't a mixup character because he doesn't have any. But the reason for that is because it would be cheap if he did. Now if he could do a mixup that was actually ambiguous, layered, relatively safe, leads into his usual big damage or into pressure on blocking; why would you not do it? No one is saying that you should push Sin into becoming a mixup character by trying to force mixups out of nowhere. But it's pointless to not use a tool to circumvent his weakness of bad mixups. I can agree that there aren't a huge amount of times that the situation arises to use these options but they definitely happen more often than none (esp VD setups) and it's best to be prepared for optimal punishes/decisions.
RurouniLoneWolf Posted March 18, 2015 Posted March 18, 2015 Just hopping in here real quick to say that I won't be doing the 1.1 Combo and Video threads so Eshi or some other kind soul can feel free to make them for 1.1's release, which should be tonight our time.
Eshi Posted March 18, 2015 Posted March 18, 2015 Just hopping in here real quick to say that I won't be doing the 1.1 Combo and Video threads so Eshi or some other kind soul can feel free to make them for 1.1's release, which should be tonight our time. Absolutely! I've been itching to update it but there's no freaking new footage ever and I'm not sure how people feel about nicovideo links. Once 1.1 is out and Final Round has ended, I'll update it consistently.
Renegade Posted March 18, 2015 Posted March 18, 2015 What should I do to ensure proper distance to end a combo with beak driver->VD? Cuz my normal combo path goes to 6H-623S->214S->214P->j.6HS->c.s->5H->6H
xlolxlolx Posted March 18, 2015 Posted March 18, 2015 stuff i dont think you understood what i was referring to, it's fine to do say 2 5hs iads in a combo but after that you're not getting much damage off subsequent loops and you're giving the opponent a ton of meter and cranking their burst meter back for them,
Robawtninja Posted March 18, 2015 Posted March 18, 2015 What should I do to ensure proper distance to end a combo with beak driver->VD? Cuz my normal combo path goes to 6H-623S->214S->214P->j.6HS->c.s->5H->6H You have to build up the hitstun by adding a ton of hits if you can. This is assuming that you are in the corner. I'm not exactly too sure what's the optimal distance to get a VD setup. But if you are in the corner, your combo is too short. Try adding a 5HS IAD j.K j.S j.K in between and stuff to get proper pushback at the end with Beak Driver. i dont think you understood what i was referring to, it's fine to do say 2 5hs iads in a combo but after that you're not getting much damage off subsequent loops and you're giving the opponent a ton of meter and cranking their burst meter back for them, I was not replying directly to you. There were other naysayers before you and I put out my points to why I believe 5HS loops are worth it. I'm not sure why the combo cranks the burst meter more than any other combos. DL wiki does not state an actual formula for building burst besides damage. So you're basically saying that the burst gauge refills itself based on hits and not damage value taken? I didn't know that was common knowledge or if it's something only you know. Also do you actually know how many 5HS IADs in a combo you can do? 2 is basically the max, 3 if you started the loop really early but the first aren't usually IAD's. So you can't even go past 2 anyways if you started off anything else because of gravity and pushback. The reason to go for as many loops as you can is to maximize building your own bar and to get the pushback/meter for VD oki. The benefits from this combo, if it leads into VD oki, really outweigh any of the negatives like building opponent's meter or even burst meter.
RentalBlackout Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 What should I do to ensure proper distance to end a combo with beak driver->VD? Cuz my normal combo path goes to 6H-623S->214S->214P->j.6HS->c.s->5H->6H I think I recall seeing something like 6H>623S>214S>236[H](low wallsplat)>214P>j.6HS>2H(3)>5H>IAD j.K>j.S>j.K>5H>(6H)>236H>VD I don't remember if you have to do 214P[4] or not. Alternatively you could also do(if wanting to save on calories) 6H>623S>214P>(j.S)>j.K>5H>IAD j.K>j.S>j.K>(dash c.S)>5H>IAD j.K>j.S>j.K>5H>(6H)>236H>VD The j.S after pole vault is necessary if the character is heavier.
xlolxlolx Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 im talking more about loops like these https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Rm0Xjh6usE iad loops involving j.k are much worse as the damage from those is pretty poor and number of hits building more burst meter for the opponent has been a thing for a really long time
Eshi Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 Sin's new 623S looks so good. I know it said so in the patch notes, but actually seeing blue hit 623S still combo into 214S makes me very happy. His hit confirms look so much more reliable now. Another thing about bursts not related to the conversation: hitting someone with a throw generates a TON of burst meter for them. So it's actually not a great idea to spam it as a mix-up.
Dreiko Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 Sin's new 623S looks so good. I know it said so in the patch notes, but actually seeing blue hit 623S still combo into 214S makes me very happy. His hit confirms look so much more reliable now. . Where's that footage? Not seen it here.
Eshi Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 Where's that footage? Not seen it here. I'm watching a mikado 3v3 live stream on nicovideo and gaku came on briefly. I think his team lost so y'all will have to wait for the recordings >.>
Destin Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 I can't wait for more gaku footage. The man likes vd's
Renegade Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 BTW, does anyone else think the "Maybe I'll hit something" is really underrated? The thing JACKS up the RISC meter, and is a great tool to through out there to discourage people dashing in after beak drivers... so that you can sometimes beak driver->eat. It's also so far away, I don't even know if anything but slayer super can punish.
Renegade Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 Sin's new 623S looks so good. I know it said so in the patch notes, but actually seeing blue hit 623S still combo into 214S makes me very happy. His hit confirms look so much more reliable now. Another thing about bursts not related to the conversation: hitting someone with a throw generates a TON of burst meter for them. So it's actually not a great idea to spam it as a mix-up. Sin's mixup game is so poor and his + on block pressure is so good that throw is essential, really. Bonus points, if you build up the RISC bar so that the throw is a counter hit... you can combo without using Roman Cancel in the corner!
Robawtninja Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 There are setups that involve with RC'ing after stabby stabby to jack the RISC gauge up and doing mixups with CHs. Also yes it's been stated that you can combo off CH throw from RISC. The gauge needs to be about 72% full, tested from training room. There was also a really solid Sin player using ALOT of VD's. His name was Trust. This was before the 3v3.
Dreiko Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 I like doing mash H as a weird frame-trap when people think "nothing he has is gonna hit me all the way over here after his 236H that I just blocked" or to chip someone who has no life and no meter. Both situations are very uncommon and gimmicky as hell though.
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