[P4AU] Margaret Gameplay Discussion

[Mooglebane]

Try IAD after the 2D but not right after it (close to when ardha is going to launch the opponent) and when Margaret is close to the ground around the time the opponent can tech, do the j.22C then as soon as it connects and Margaret lands you can almost immediatly use 2C in quick succession, it's not really that tough once you get the timing of the IAD lol

 

Yeah, I've been doing all of this. Guess I just gotta keep grinding it out.

[So-Called-Chaos]

Its OK mooglebane, we are all struggling with this character lol

[Panda of Smeg]

Fatal counter 2B against minazuki teleport, 2B > j.2C > j.22D > land IAD j.22C > Dash God hand and then whatever. You have to react early to the teleport and it will auto correct on the d version but it let's you bring him back to the ground for the j.22C routes.

[Ragnarok_F4]

Combos for HT in the corner:

 

5A > 5B > 5C > 236AB > 2C > 2D > 214A > 214214A (like 4.4k)

5B > 5C > 236AB > 2C > 2D > 214B > 214214A (like 4.7k)

 

On midscreen:

 

j5B > j5C > 2A > 5B > 5C > 236C > 214214A (3.9k)

j5C > 2A > 2B > 5B > 5C > 236C > 214214A (3.8k)

 

This HT combos are nice, but they are only usable in awakening, so her damage outside of that is average I think.

 

BTW her defenses are terrible, how do you manage against rush characters like aigis or yosuke?

[So-Called-Chaos]

after spending 3 hours in the training room, Here are some of my thoughts for day 2.

 

J.A is not a bad jump in, at the very least I think its ok for jump ins since you can follow with 2B and 2A (although it's harder) on normal hit, it also has a nice cross up window so you can jump>air turn>air back dash>J.A>2B(1) rest of combo.

 

2B first hit is her fastest ground normal I think, it has a nice horizontal hitbox almost about as far Lizzie's 5A, and moves her forward so it's good for combos, I think it's a good alternative for her 5As which are somewhat slow plus it's AUB but it has less range than 5A.

 

I'm pretty sure we're going to use Gale Slash similarily to narukami's zio car.

 

things like Sweep, Gale Slash and AoA should be used as raw punishes, such as when Naoto's shooting bullets or when Yukari uses Feather Arrow or narukmi's zio car and shouldn't be used in neutral so obviously, could be used also in certain situations or resets, I also believe that Margaret's AoA is better than Minzauki's teleport since it has guard point and not fatal recovery.

 

divine wind C version is awesome.

 

her normals and cancels with them are so weird, this is the most difficult thing for me about margaret.

 

I really think Hassou Tobi's damage is unscaled, because I had combos that went from things like 2980 to 4600-4700.

 

her neutral is looking strong so far, she has so many ranged options.

 

Overall I'm absolutely loving her, her combos look awesome and are so damn fun, although she's really tough to play, I'm enjoying every bit of it!

 

here's another max Hassou Tobi or let's just say MHT lol: CH 5C>2C>2D>j.22C>2C>5C>214214A (Hassou Tobi) does 4791

 

edit: if you input power slash A version's input before hassou tobi, damage is 5071.

[Balguna]

Anyone got a list of her Fatal Counters and Recoveries?

[So-Called-Chaos]

her J.2B, J.22C and 2C can fatal, her DP is fatal recovery, I think there's more though lol

[Zouf]

Her DP is terrible. The range is just not enough. Good to bait safe jumps, but otherwise it's trash.

 

Her AoA is also very bad. Can't be used in neutral at all due to its incredible small hitbox and slowness. Even in pressing it's not so good. Maybe in corner but that's it.

 

5C is great, but random rolls will punish it, kinda annoying. 

 

I don't know how to play her. I keep spamming 5C > 2C > 5D/2D string over and over. 2A could be better. I guess it's a good meaty. I should use it more.

[Dopples]

Played a bunch of casuals with her last night at TRB. Thoughts:

j.5B is a good spacing tool for quickly punishing attempts at zoning.

 

2B is good, but it seems super easy to mistime. Not that whiffing 2B is absolutely terrible, since you can still go into j.5C after wards.

 

Mixing up j.5D and j. 2D on pressure created some interesting results. Both fireballs seemed safe, and  j.2D in particular seemed good for stuffing zoning attempts.

 

5A>either 2A or AoA works as of now as a dumb mix up lol. Probably won't after the first week is over though.

 

Conversions are hard :c

 

236C is super good in neutral.

 

Her air DP isn't that great, since the range is garbage. Still, it's fast, and it can be used to hang in the air briefly if you need to.

 

Speaking of, Margaret's ability to stall in the air seems really good. j.2C>j.2D>DP keeps you up there for a loooong time.

 

j.2B seems safe? I might be wrong though.

 

Instant overhead j.236C seems to be a thing. Have to confirm though.

 

j.A is fast, but it's range is garbage.

 

Sweep is really good against Aigis and Yukiko.

 

The range on 236236A/B is surprisingly good/it's actually pretty fast. Might be her go-to wake up super?

 

Her Persona-based command grabs are sick. They seem hard to beat out cleanly.

 

j.5C da gawd.

 

Will post more stuff later.

[PK Gaming]

We should call Gale Slash Sword Car...

 

No, Sword Limo

[ThatHiroGuy]

Played a bunch of casuals with her last night at TRB. Thoughts:

j.5B is a good spacing tool for quickly punishing attempts at zoning.

 

2B is good, but it seems super easy to mistime. Not that whiffing 2B is absolutely terrible, since you can still go into j.5C after wards.

 

Mixing up j.5D and j. 2D on pressure created some interesting results. Both fireballs seemed safe, and  j.2D in particular seemed good for stuffing zoning attempts.

 

5A>either 2A or AoA works as of now as a dumb mix up lol. Probably won't after the first week is over though.

 

Conversions are hard :c

 

236C is super good in neutral.

 

Her air DP isn't that great, since the range is garbage. Still, it's fast, and it can be used to hang in the air briefly if you need to.

 

Speaking of, Margaret's ability to stall in the air seems really good. j.2C>j.2D>DP keeps you up there for a loooong time.

 

j.2B seems safe? I might be wrong though.

 

Instant overhead j.236C seems to be a thing. Have to confirm though.

 

j.A is fast, but it's range is garbage.

 

Sweep is really good against Aigis and Yukiko.

 

The range on 236236A/B is surprisingly good/it's actually pretty fast. Might be her go-to wake up super?

 

Her Persona-based command grabs are sick. They seem hard to beat out cleanly.

 

j.5C da gawd.

 

Will post more stuff later.

 

j.236C isn't overhead. Was trying to do 2B>cancel after first hit (but midair) j.236C yesterday and you can not only DP it very easily, but you can roll through it, and it can simply be blocked ( I think) mid. Definitely doesn't hit overhead. Can't reasonably cancel it into other moves that I know of, either.

[Dopples]

j.236C isn't overhead.

 

 

Good to know. Still seems like a decent-ish pressure tool all the same.

[chemical ninja]

Good to know. Still seems like a decent-ish pressure tool all the same.

on the jourdal video that you guys probably know about he does j.c, then instant overhead j.c after landing into a confirm that I use a lot that's probably the instant overhead used. I like it a lot. Even without 3 barz for a rapid instant overhead it does 3.8 k.building a bar all the while.

http://youtu.be/8G8ZgrBPoBA hopefully the link worked im on my tablet and dont know how to link.

[Zouf]

It's not instant overhead as it whiffs on crouchers.

[chemical ninja]

It's not instant overhead as it whiffs on crouchers.

If you do a deep enough jumpin then j.c right when you land it should work im just using the setup in video which is 2a, 2b, 5c, 5b, 5aaaaa, 236d, 214a (knockdown), j.c when they land then instant overhead j.c...... actually my fault this is a fuzzy guard setup not really instant overhead my fault I forgot the difference.

[Ragnarok_F4]

Every time a play her I think she will be less top/high tier. She just doesn't have what it takes, her defense is beyond terrible, her DP is competing to be the worst in the game, you can't rely on that at all. Her pokes are slow, so slow, her 2B is decent but is not a reversal (great AA though, but on whiff is super punishable), so people can stagger you (lol Mitsuru) without much risk. I'm using 236236A as reversal since I think she doesn't have anything else (it works quite well but I'm spending bar now). Arda's 2D doesn't work that much as an AA, for example Adachi jC bested it every single time, is good for the mind game (but is easily dodgeable) and in combos, is better to use 2B as her natural AA. Her mixup could be good, but I agree that the AoA and Sweep should be done to punish stuff and not using it in mixup or in neutral (that much). She's indeed strong but has serious problems, also her damage outside of HT is average or below average too (but this could change with time). I think her blockstrings are really good too. Her meta game in general is so different to the rest of the cast, you can't do common things with her in neutral/pressure/defense. To me, she's like lambda/nu: very good offensive options, but with little to no defense (this explains why she has 9.5k). Margaret without someone rushing you is really formidable.

 

Her Fast Fall crouches the opponent, is there a way to follow it up without OMC?

[So-Called-Chaos]

I'm almost surprised that people are already making tier speculations, it hasn't been 3 days lol there's still TONS we don't know about margaret, fatal combos, what options we should use in neutral, frame data, possible resets and optimal damage.

 

the reason why I think poeple are struggling is because she's definitely not an easy character, her attacks are weird, her 5A is the longest in the game, her 2B is faster than her 5A, her 2A can't be chained into itself and slides her forward, her sweep goes fullscreen but is slower than other sweeps, her 5B can chain back to 5A.

 

and she has like 10 different air normals lol

 

that being said, I don't really care how she's ranked, she's just too fun to not play

[gamewizard108]

it is only day 3 but i agree with what ragnorak said, having a terrible dp and bad defensive options and the fact that shes the only character in the game without a crouching short( i feel like this is HUGE) usually aren't signs of a top tier/good char. i feel like her damage is just overall mediocre. also, has anyone found a good use for that tornado super? it seems pretty useless

[Ragnarok_F4]

All that stuff is awesome and has a lot of offensive options, she's great with momentum indeed. But I'm still struggling trying to get out of pressure, with her you need to be good defensively without a DP and without a fast normal to poke your way out, 5A has long range, but is slow, and 2B is not fast enough. You have to rely more on IB, dodge, Counter-Assault (or super reversal) and the OS that were explained in the other thread, it's time to train this last part with Margaret xD. She's indeed weird, not that hard but weird as fuck, lol. But she's really fun and her combos are lots of hype, I dunno but is going to be her or Yukari for the main, and I'm gonna kick Aigis from my sub spot xP.

 

Btw, she's unbreakable, they barely touch the personas since you can cancel one into another and she has 8 cards, by that time the round is already over.

 

has anyone found a good use for that tornado super? it seems pretty useless

 

I have nothing in my side for that yet. The lance is dense enough and faster to destroy projectiles and I'm not spending bar on it as an ender, is only like 300-500 more damage and doesn't knock the opponent down. "Maybe" for oki? Dunno. Mediarahan looks pretty useless right now too, I still don't understand it completely.

[So-Called-Chaos]

trying to find combos with it myself lol.

 

it could be useful as an anti-zoning tool if it plows through high level projectiles, I don't think it should be used as a super reversal, power slash (236236A) is better for that, and possibly like ragnarok said, it could be useful for oki, or as a way to get in.

 

am I the only one who's been using Phanta Rhei (tornado) defensively? I've been using it when I have a narukami or sho closing in on me or when I'm being backed into the corner since it keeps the opponent in block stun for enough time to reset pressure/escape.

[ThatHiroGuy]

Setups!

 

This only works close, so I don't really know why it has me so excited, but here you are.

 

Right next to your opponent- 5D>2B>jump cancel>(insert persona special). The idea is to go through the opponent with 2B (read- use 2B as soon as Ardha grabs them). When you go through, you'll be pushed by their forward momentum, so you don't have to chase them down. When they (and you) are about to land, you can jump cancel, then choose which side to end up on. You can also use Ardha (who's sitting on the opposite side of them now) as placement for a new Persona attack that'll hit them on the other side.

 

For passing through them, 5B works too, and is ultimately less tricky due to the jump cancel on 2B being a pain to time. I'll try to get a video of me doing it, but I just like it, it's pretty neat, and you can do so many ambiguous things with it.

 

This actually would be extremely frightening in the corner, since it's a given that you'll be close to them anyway. 

[ThatHiroGuy]

... You can also put your Persona off screen. Very hard to do, but it can be done, and it's hilarious.

[Buttface]

2A>2B(1)>5C>5B>5AAAAA>236CD>2C>2D>44>214D is really nice as a corner combo

the backdash lets you space yourself just enough that you can stay out of reach of them but still meaty with 5C.

 

does 2709, gains more than enough meter during the combo for the 236CD

[So-Called-Chaos]

Finally found a follow up to J.2B.

 

air gale slash (214 A or AB) or air divine wind (236 C or CD) but no idea how to continue from there.

 

Also couple ideas on the jump ins mentioned before by hiroguy I believe.

 

J.B>J.C (J.C itself is enough) is a freaking awesome jump in, you can do things like J.B and if they're expecting the J.C and you're close to the ground, you can go right into 2A for a tricky mix up.

 

edit: also 2B first hit causes the opponent to stand on hit.

[Loli Bacon]

This character is easy, just bad. She lacks options to open people up and while her neutral is "okay" it really isn't "okay". Her neutral is mediocre/bad at best. Once people realize she lacks space control in the 30 degree/40 degree vector in front of her on the ground and 15/20 degree vector in the air, she loses neutral hard. She can't control these spaces and so people can just run on in against her.

 

Against zoners, she loses hard. How does she deal with projectile users at range? Her movement/attacks aren't good enough to compete. Not only are they slow, but the have terrible hitboxes. Sure they have long range, but most of them just straight up lose in trades.

 

Unless some new tech is found where she gains amazing mixups/pressure or gets crazy damage off punishes, I'm saying she's on par with Liz/Labrys.

 

She relies entirely on forcing her opponent to make a mistake at neutral and then punish it, but her punishes are generally 2k damage or 3k if she lands a 2C/j.22C. That's not worth it, considering characters like Sho, Chie, or Narukami can just put their buttons on the screen and convert to 4k without meter. She loses in the risk v. reward in this scenario.