[P4AU] Margaret Gameplay Discussion

[susano]

I start by setting the stage. In neutral, I hardly press j.D, since it's sort of hard to confirm (imo), and on a normal jump, I'm pretty sure you can't do anything other than that. So instead, I judge where the opponent is, and react appropriately. j.2C (for me) is good against people who are too far or horizontal for j.C to hit, and you can throw out other persona moves after it, if you feel the need to. j.2D is great if you're far enough, because it sets the Persona out for you to do anything with it when you hit the ground (it stays in the same general area on screen). On the ground, I try to space 2B for anti-airs appropriately, but I find more success in air-to-airing them with things like j.A and junk, since 2B is hard to use for me.

 

Dash 5A (1 hit) is great, because it forces the opponent to stop about half the screen away to react to either a god's hand, or whatever pressure you have planned out. Typically, I dash 5A>sweep, since it's fast and people sometimes don't expect it. At that point, some opponents stop doing anything altogether, they allow you to start pressure. Others are more resilient, and you'll have to keep your 236C/D game strong, as well as aerial zoning and general defensive tactics.

 

Pressure is simple, but risky. For me, what's yielded most results is just doing 5C>2C, or 5D, or 236D>5C>etc etc. You're fishing for a hit at full screen, or half-screen, more or less. I've said it multiple times, you'll have to judge the situation, because Margaret has a huge issue with people who roll her options, so keep an eye out to make sure you aren't doing the same blockstring, because people WILL catch on. 5A>sweep, 5A>god hand, 5A>5B>5A>sweep, 5A>5C>236D, 5A>236D, so on so forth. You really just have to keep things fresh and react accordingly.

 

I'm more a visual person so will someone start a neutral video or something in the future? I really had to drop Liz and will be using Margaret exclusively. I used her for a bit but her neutral was very weird.

[ThatHiroGuy]

I'm more a visual person so will someone start a neutral video or something in the future? I really had to drop Liz and will be using Margaret exclusively. I used her for a bit but her neutral was very ackward.

 

I have a capture card, but I've had issues with it recently. I'll see what I can do about this. I've been trying to do this for a while now :/.

[Speakeasy]

A few questions:

1) Is 2D not an AA grab? I've been trying to use it to keep people jumping out but they have enough time to hit the persona and still jump away with no consequences. How do I keep them from just jumping out of my persona pressure?

2) What do I do about people that sit crouching full screen and refuse to do anything at all? I can't force/punish a mistake if they won't move. Do I just throw spears all day until they die of old age at the stick or something?

3) Is 5D regularly in pressure (not in predictable blockstrings, just used like twice per round) a terrible idea? It's so slow they can also smack this one and jump out before getting grabbed too.

(also when's matchup threads)

[Zouf]

I don't know about smacking or hitting 5D or 2D, because these two moves have armor so it doesn't really matter.

 

1) 2D is indeed an AA grab, except it's slow and has a poor hitbox. If you want to prevent people from jumping away from your pressure... Well end your string with 236C, then use j.2C. The persona will stay where 236C ended, and you'll be able to catch your opponent air to air. Either than that, since she can't jump cancel on guard, you don't have that many options to begin with. You can also use some 214C/D in your strings. It might catch the start up of a jump if timed well.

 

Also, 2C > 2D can catch jumpers too if 2D is slightly delayed.

 

2) Why would you care about this? I mean, 236C is indeed strong, but you can also rush them down. You have 3 command grabs, and you can combo out of a regular throw in corner. Hit them with 5C / 2C then 5D. They'll learn they can't turtle against margaret.

AoA can work too, but it's slow and very unsafe so use it wisely.

 

3) 5D is good. It's legit too. If you mix well between 5D, 2D, 236C and 214C, opponent will have a hard time reading you. And since 5D has armor, he can't mash out of it.

2C > 5D can work fine since the opponent will either read a 2D misconfirm or trying to catch him jumping.

Just be aware that everything i've told you can be beat by rolls. Rolls is indeed the bane of Margaret.

[Speakeasy]

I didn't mean that they just turtle until I come bring them the pain, but that they react to me doing anything that might constitute trying to get closer and then go back to camping out. It's a huge problem with me in general, but I have no idea what to do. I'm used to forcing/punishing mistakes and it doesn't feel like I can efficiently do that with Margaret yet.

[Zouf]

j.C and j.D are great tools to approach safely. I don't see how they could react and punish these two moves.

 

I don't know, margaret shouldn't have any trouble at all approaching an opponent. Her neutral is fairly good (it has flaws through)

[Illuminoid]

What are you guys doing off of 5D

[So-Called-Chaos]

Run up 2B>J.C etc for me mostly but you can do things like 5B>5C>J.C etc I believe

[Speakeasy]

I've been doing 2B stuff too, but if 5B stuff works, that's probably the better option.

[SectumSsempra]

What are you guys doing off of 5D

 

If it's in the corner or counter hit , usual string. 2b to jC j2C jump cancel jC j2C (236 C/ 214 b/ 214 AB) hassou tobi or power slash depending on the need, meter and combo number can be done after the sb attack.

Usually nothing if midscreen.

If you're feeling risky and sure,  midscreen you can use 5d, dash ahead and theres a really tight place to catch 2a 2b to jC j2C jump cancel jC j2C (236 C/ 214  b/ 214 AB), issue is if you are late they may have already recovered, if you're too early, it goes in the other direction and they can recover and punish.

 

A few questions:

3) Is 5D regularly in pressure (not in predictable blockstrings, just used like twice per round) a terrible idea? It's so slow they can also smack this one and jump out before getting grabbed too.

 

 

It's fine in my opinion as long as you realize that once they figure out how the ardha call works they can simply jump and dash before its active. 

hitting ardha is exactly what you want them to do btw, they don't have the time to hit the persona and then jump over(unless they give up after a 5a), usually its too late and becomes a counter, so you can use the corner followup anywhere on screen. 

 

 

My biggest issue with her is out of counter and awakening she isn't breaking mid 3kish easy, but I guess with that oki what should I expect. I dont always do the most optimal combos but I'm digging her. 

I find a lot of combos with hefty damage use hassou tobi, issue is half the time I'm in awakening I usually needed to use meter to get out of a nasty situation or Im already on the ropes and in no places to use the combos with hassou, I almost wish she had a mind charge like liz sometimes.

[Zouf]

CH 5D > 2C works

 

I still haven't found a reliable combo route off 5D non CH midscreen. Usually I just let it go and okizeme

[TD]

as soon as 5d hits midscreen, 2b (all hits) into standard combo. you have to end it fairly quickly though, probably because 5d doesn't have great proration. very similar to liz 5d, where liz has to do a slight delay 5a after the bite, margaret can hit 2b right after the punch.

 

so are there any options against rolls? I was reading about hop cancel jc a page or two back, is this effective and are there any other setups? so far roll on wakeup has been very strong as well as random points in neutral when the foe thinks I am about to strike. seems like everything margaret has hits right in front of her..

[Zouf]

She needs to bait rolls unfortunatly. Sweep can be effective, as well as 2A or 214X

 

Rolls on wakeup shouldn't be possible if you meaty. Rolls aren't invul from frame 1. But this isn't as easy as I sound, i mess up pretty often too :P

[So-Called-Chaos]

Rolls are seriously troublesome.

 

The best you can do is try to be as gapless as possible with your pressure and try not to throw out things like 5C too often because margaret has lengthy recovery on most if not all of her attacks which allows for easy counters after rolls.

 

and as Zouf mentioned, using things like 2A and 5B can effective because even if they roll through them, margaret will probably be too far out of range for the opponent to retaliate.

[Urichinan]

Mid-Screen hit 5D > 5B > 5C > 2B > j.2C > j.214B works. The further away you are, the harder it is to land 5B, so just omit it and go straight into 2B. It's insanely easy to confirm 5D hits, and there should be zero problem comboing after it, unless they are the absolute other side of the screen. In the corner you should always be able to get 5B > 5C > 2B.

 

CH 5D > Dash 2C (No dash in the corner) > 2D > j.22C > Dash j.214C > 2B > j.2C > j.214B is a pretty standard CH combo.

[SectumSsempra]

5d isn't insanely easy. it's certainly possible but not insanely easy. 

We're not talking about a counter hit. 

You can hit with 5D and use 2b and margaret can be facing the wrong direction to follow up with jc j2c j 214b

[Urichinan]

5d isn't insanely easy. it's certainly possible but not insanely easy. 

We're not talking about a counter hit. 

You can hit with 5D and use 2b and margaret can be facing the wrong direction to follow up with jc j2c j 214b

j.2C auto-corrects after 2B. If she goes behind them, all you have to do is dj.214B after j.2C. It's easy.

[ThatHiroGuy]

Video processing. I might have to re-record it... It's like 14 seconds over their 15 minute limit lol.

[ThatHiroGuy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6AnhHooMKI&feature=youtu.be

 

^ Just leaving it here. I'll post it in the video thread later, but for now, more people will notice it this way. I'm pretty sure I recorded in 720, but the youtube video seemed to only allow 360. In any case, cheers, and hope I helped.

 

Edit- YAY 720!

[ThatHiroGuy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLZFCxl1Msk&feature=youtu.be

 

^ Second video. First time I've done any tutorials, so there's a lot I messed up on, I realize. Little things like mixing up "j.2C" and "2C", etc etc.

 

I forgot a few things in the video, but it's mostly stuff that people should figure out naturally, even if they're just starting with Margaret. Just for reference, beginners, and the curious-

 

j.2D allows you to still do another air option (jumps or dashes) after using it, which is why it's one of the better air normals for her, at most spacings. It's downside is being slower to activate. It's great for setting the stage at neutral, but depending on how close you are to your opponent, you'll want to be more concerned about using it.

 

j.D does not allow another air option (on a normal jump, anyway). If you use j.D, prepare to commit to the decision. It's best to use it closer to the ground, something I did mention in the video.

 

j.C is similar, in that you are committing to it's use, and on a normal jump, you won't be able to do anything else unless you cancel it into other moves. 

 

j.2C is more of a combo utility than anything else. For almost any reason you'd use it, another move could (arguably) take it's place.

[Speakeasy]

Sorry if the videos on this page cover it (Tapatalk hates my phone and won't let me watch them), but what can we do to call out rolls? Just not press anything after the first hit of pressure when we're expecting one and get that juicy CH? Do we have to condition people to stop rolling before we can do pressure/mixup?

[ThatHiroGuy]

Sorry if the videos on this page cover it (Tapatalk hates my phone and won't let me watch them), but what can we do to call out rolls? Just not press anything after the first hit of pressure when we're expecting one and get that juicy CH? Do we have to condition people to stop rolling before we can do pressure/mixup?

 

I might post match videos of me fighting some (average) players, so you can get an idea of how she functions during matches. At least, how I play her anyway.

 

People dodge roll her because the Persona strings never end if you don't do that, or hit them. Because of that, ideally, you don't want to limit yourself to Persona based blockstrings. If it comes to that, as I showed in the videos, there's only a few ways around them dodge-rolling. 

 

Using neutral (in moderation) and having a good control of dashing/air-turning seems really strong. 

[susano]

Is this thread still alive? I posted in the critique section and no critique. D:

 

Also, I'm confused by using neutral in moderation. Is it like you can't really pressure for too long? I'm still learning Margaret and while I can pull of 3-4ks out of my ass, I'm still iffy about neutral.

[So-Called-Chaos]

SB god's hand, ardha has guard point during the attack unlike the C/D versions

[dive-slam]

Is there a Margaret Skype chat?