[P4AU] Margaret Gameplay Discussion

[Lord Knight]

Match up thoughts -

Aigis - no answer to JC? Have to play a careful full screen and mid range game. Margaret can tag wchange with 5B/5C/236C, so you have to play a sort of oppressive neutral game. Orgia - run away. J2C air to air seems to be best vs JC. Whiff 2B = dangerous when she's in Orgia. Even or maybe slightly in Aigis's favor.

Labrys - JB. Sweep chain knuckle on reaction, you can also fuzzy guard it. Same with Guilliotine OMC unless they do dash 2A after the first hit. I think the best thing is fuzzy block > suplex. 5A is the best vs JB. Her pressure is OK, nothing too rough, just need to know how to deal with it. Margaret favor.

Yu - Even... I think? Scariest thing he has is his ability to end rounds. Neutral is evenish, she doesn't have to worry about air Zio which is nice. Defense is a little difficult - command grab is rough, but mostly everything else is blockable on reaction, and if you select correctly you get 4K off ch 2B. His mixup is good. Even or slightly in Yu's favor.

S Naoto - Tense/stressful. On paper Margaret wins because of neutral, but you can't win unless you fulfill your win condition before hers. Slightly in Margaret's favor.

Teddie - Even though I got better at this, it's still hard. His pressure is good and JA is very hard to deal with. 5A, trade/challenge with 2B, air to air with JC. J2C is a really important air to air against him. Teddie favor.

Rise - 5A her JB. Her neutral is ok, Margaret's is better. Being scanned is ok if they use the disc right away, sj > ib disc > move again (your air options are restored). Baited B+D = 6000 damage. Her pressure is really good though, and she's going to try to get in on you the entire match. Margaret favor.

Adachi - 5A iad JC, 2B sj JC. Really annoying to play against but he has no ground game. 2B his j2D. This match is about playing solid, he wants to random you out/steal games from you. Margaret favor.

Sho - somewhat odd. 5A vs JB, but he has other aerials that are good against ground attacks. You can play air to air also. He's definitely got good mixup on his side but you can deal with most of it so it's fine. Even.

Naoto - plays the same as S Naoto, except you don't have to worry about Berserk. On the other hand, you have to pay attention to her standard meter options, since she'll use them more. Margaret favor.

Yukiko - Hardest thing to deal with is J1/2/3D. Meet it air to air or dash jump past it. Everything else is pretty easy to deal with. Remember that the key to beating her in neutral is being patient and picking your spots, she wants you to mess up. Margaret favor.

Chie - Fast! Doesn't have much range. You basically want to control your pace vs her. 5C is the ground move you want to challenge. Margaret favor.

Yosuke - annoying. Really hard to AA. 5A vs JD and 5D. Basically if he glides, he's almost always going to dash into X normal, so you want to try punish his landing. Slightly in Yosuke's favor.

Mitsuru - Fine. The hardest thing for Margaret to deal with is droit, which you want to avoid. For reference, slide has faster chest invul than sweep, but since it's a motion it's generally easier to use sweep. Jumping is GOOD against Mitsuru, all her buttons have a lot of recovery (like Margaret), but she doesn't move at all. Air vs air, Mitsuru doesn't get much reward for JA or JB as well, but Margaret gets knockdown. Slightly in Margaret favor.

Elizabeth - OK? Neutral is odd, it seems like Margaret should be able to AA Liz's JB easily, but she can't (very easily). 5A and 5C are the best AA's generally, SB god hand situationally. You need good defense and need to pay attention to her meter so you don't get caught doing stuff. Even?

Akihiko - Fine. When he's airborne you have to reposition yourself or meet him air to air. Getting hit by JC is bad, but it's easy to punish. You MUST understand how cyclone works for defense. Even or slight Margaret favor.

S.Lab - Fine. Margaret is really good at dealing with Asterius and S.Lab at the same time. Slight Margaret favor.

Junpei - free. You have to pay attention to the move where his persona dives at you and is overhead, and the one where if you block it, it strikes you three times. He can also reflect ice/fire balls/spear. Outside of those things, he doesn't have much. Margaret favor.

Minazuki - Not bad. Neutral has a weird pace because of how easily he can play full screen. Really, the struggle against him is how much damage he can shit out when he has meter, but Margaret can do the same to him in Awakening or with CH. Even.

Ken - super annoying. Really about how you manage attacking them both in tandem. Margaret is especially good at killing the dog. Likely even.

Kanji - Pretty easy. She wins this match in neutral. Shoulder charge loses to 236C (ironically). He's easy to AA since his airdash is slow. Baited B+D = 6000 damage. Margaret favor.

Yukari - Fine. This match is about patience/breaking her persona. Paying attention to how they like to set up orb > arrows helps too - you can either try to hit her out of the orb, or intercept her as she tries to shoot the arrow. Her B+D is very, very bad against Margaret. Even.
Marie - OK? 214B beats JC, but she has big gorilla normals, and has good pressure. Atm, this is the match I have the least experience with.


TL;DR
Favorable - Kanji, Yukiko, Labrys, Rise, Adachi, Naoto, Chie, Junpei
Slightly Favorable - S.lab, Mitsuru, S.Naoto
Even/Unsure - Marie(?), Yukari, Ken(?), Minazuki, Sho, Akihiko, Yu(?), Aigis(?), Liz
Slightly Unfavorable - Yosuke
Unfavorable - Teddie

[Inahk]

Good stuff Will, definitely useful for beginners.

 

I will point out that this: 5B 5A 5B 5C ~ delay 5B is exceptionally unsafe, and not what I would call a "setup", specially if you are just doing the 5B even if they don't roll. Letting your -18 5C recover and then doing a 10f startup 5B (28f gap), you are asking for trouble. At least react. I'd prefer to just cancel to 236C for the pushback and slightly less frame disadvantage, true blockstring, and then react to whatever they try.

 

Her dash cancels off 5C and 5A are also both quite negative, though 5A to a lesser extent. I use dash cancel throw quite sparingly, and its mostly works off the threat reinforced by the other options that discourage the opponent from mashing, like 2C, 236D, Hop Cancel j.C and 5D, but if they press almost anything its going to catch you out of a dash cancel.

 

Generally when it comes to rolls, I think its fine to just reset to neutral if you can, since that is where Margaret excels. Ending strings early and reacting to them. Get them to respect the 4.5k+ roll punish before you starting trying God Hands and stuff.

 

Oh also, 5C > Sweep, if they roll the gap after 5C, you can actually recover and throw punish their roll. This is the lowest risk lowest reward roll punish I think.

[Fortune]

Thank you so much for your sage advice Inahk, we've been having some discussion on rolls so I figured I put together everything I've observed from everywhere to iron things out.

 

Also I'll tack on LK's equally sage gdlk MU tidbits when I get the chance.

[rubedo777]

Match up thoughts -

Elizabeth - OK? Neutral is odd, it seems like Margaret should be able to AA Liz's JB easily, but she can't (very easily). 5A and 5C are the best AA's generally, SB god hand situationally. You need good defense and need to pay attention to her meter so you don't get caught doing stuff. Even?

 

I think this is 7-3 Margaret...Margaret sweep, 236C can shut down all of Liz ranged options and you can even react to EX lasers and the fire with AoA to punish her. I don't see how it's remotely even. Because of this Liz can't really play her ranged game much and has to jump around...I think her floaty jump makes it easy for Margaret to shut her down.

[Lord Knight]

Jumping is good in that match and it's pretty hard to deal with jb until you back them in a corner imo.

[susano]

Thanks for the writeup LK. Its helpful. Also, thanks Will.

[crimsonstardust]

This is a bit of an odd question, so when practicing some of these pressure/resets as show in this vid, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKq0F3B6bwQ should I set the dummy to block all or something? 

[susano]

^

 

Yea, but have the dummy block some attacks, that way you can see how the resets/mixups work.

[Jotamide]

Added some missing values on the wiki. More specifically, SP Skills and some variations of D attacks.

[Radori]

I am curious as to why this page is still blank? 

http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=Margaret_Frame_Data_(P4AU)

[Balguna]

The mook only covered frame data for the arcade characters, so frame data for console characters had to be calculated manually. Margaret was the last character released, so probably not a lot of people have gone out to gather her data and edit the wiki with it. You might notice some of the other console characters don't have all their frame data up either.

 

But anyone can edit the wiki, so if you feel like updating that page, feel free to go ahead.

[TheOneTrueScrub]

Where can I find frame data for Margaret?

[Balguna]

Don't think there's an established source out there yet as far as I know. I think her 5A is 8f or 9f, that's all I know.

 

LK did put up a list of some of her gatlings back in September.

[Radori]

There are only a few moves I want to know the frame data for. 

 

Startup for 2A, 2B, 5C, 5D and how much is 236D plus on block. 

 

I'm pretty sure her 5A is 9 frames on startup since in can punish Yu's 236C on block. Which is -10. But barely. 

[GregariousMonk]

This is what I have, not sure if it is 100% correct.

 

Startups (frames on block)

 

2A: 8f (-6 to -13 depending on distance)

2B: 7f 

5C: 12f (-19)

5D: 35f

236D on ground: 19f (-6)

[Radori]

This is what I have, not sure if it is 100% correct.

 

Startups (frames on block)

 

2A: 8f (-6 to -13 depending on distance)

2B: 7f 

5C: 12f (-19)

5D: 35f

236D on ground: 19f (-6)

 

Thank you sir! The 2B one really helps out!

[So-Called-Chaos]

So far these are the 2.0 changes we know of going by the 2.0 character videos, not a 100% sure on these so feel free to correct me or add anything

 

Buff: Sweep can be delayed

Buff: SB God's Hand more plus on block (but not safe on IB), can cancel into supers (?)

Buff: Mediarahan has guard point, if attacked, Margaret recovers more health, health recovered seems relative to the potential damage received.

Buff: C and SB Phanta Rhei (Tornado) appear from her persona's position rather than right next to Margaret.

 

Possible Nerf: Hassou Tobi minimum damage reduced.

[Fortune]

LK roughly translated the bulk of the general changes on Twitter if he doesn't mind me relaying them.

 

Up until the start of a Persona attack, her Persona are invul (All C attacks except J22C, all versions of 236, all versions of air 214)

 

She takes more damage from slide down attacks(?)

 

Persona Break - She recovers her Persona cards slower

 

Mediarahan - Initial total HP regained reduced

Both players regain all their P-cards

Has armor against everything but throws

During the armor, she gains HP and is invul

Total duration is reduced

 

Hassou Tobi - Faster up to super flash

 

B Hassou - Faster start up. Less recovery, possible to continue to combo afterwards

 

C/SB tornado appear where the persona was last

 

SB tornado -  Faster startup. Only invul against projectiles (might be invul before startup)

 

All versions of Power Slash - Faster from start up to super flash. The actual speed of the attack is unchanged.

 

SB God Hand - Reduced recovery. More advantageous on block. 

(Fortune noting: this appears to be +2 as only on IB could Narukami trade with our 7F 2B with his 5F 5A) 

The amount of time afterwards where you cannot use Personas has been reduced.

 

 

236C - Spear gets thrown slightly lower

 

All versions of God Hand - Ardha is invul until the start of the attack

 

AoA - Reduced recovery, Loses to invul moves(?)

 

Airthrow - Reduced untech time

Ultra Suplex - Reduced untech time on CH

 

5C /2C - Smaller hitbox

j2D - Slightly faster start up

 

Sweep - Can be held/charged to delay the start up

 

Auto combo - 

If you're holding a direction during auto combo, 236C won't come out

5th hit has more pushback? (のけぞり時間)

 

5A - Isn't special cancellable into persona moves? Not sure.

 

 

I for one welcome our +2 SB God's Hand \o/. Also the game is literally giving us no excuse to be Persona broken lol.

[Syklone]

No damage nerfs? Surprising since they're nerfing pretty much everyone's damage.

[Fortune]

I'm sure we have universal damage nerfs but we have yet to see. The demonstrated combos with Hassou Tobi did 4960 and 5906 but both were with a lot of meter, we'll have to wait to see in a second when they're optimized.

 

We can combo after B Hassou, which was /never/ used before now and air tornado into displaced 2C 2D is a thing now, so that will probably make it where she can just combo off even more situations if there's a damage nerf.

[Fortune]

I'm also curious about mediarahan as megablues mentioned as to why it's mediarahan and not simply diarahan, it could possibly recover persona card....

So yeah can we talk about your mad prediction skills?

 

Also, I can't wait to see safejump applications from this (pardon the doublepost)

[Balguna]

If you can Mediarahan through Yukari's Magarula it'll be hilarious.

[Radori]

If you can Mediarahan through Yukari's Magarula it'll be hilarious.

This is the FIRST thing I was rejoicing about.

Praise ArcSys. 

[Radori]

Good to see fortune took note on what I said to him about God Hand with our 2B vs Yu's 5A and it being +2 on block.

 

In regards to 5A no longer being special cancellable, does this mean 5AAAAA as well? In theory it shouldn't since auto combo is a thing. 

 

If this is true, our knockdown game is gone. 

[Fortune]

Minor correction, it's actually j.2D iceball with slightly faster startup and not 2D icegrab