[CT] Hakumen Thread

[Maho]

Most people will burst if they get hit by Hakumen's HCF+C move. This is why I have kind of been scarcely using it. It sucks when you throw out this move and you get bursted on, having wasted all your orbs trying to land that shit. I was fighting this one guy and he was TOTALLY looking for it, I never did it and killed him with a less damaging combo and he didn't even burst before I killed him.

Don't stop using Zantetsu because people burst when they got hit, it's actually to your very advantage if they burst early, Hakumen can do 4k+ damage for only two stars with 623AA combos, it's like 6k if they bursted so they will really be in a bad position after it. Also Tsubaki being air unblockable means if you're air to air and get the opponent to block a normal, you can do it and they will have to instant block (which is easier said than done) it or it's a free combo for you.

Don't be too focused on saving your stars, Hakumen shouldn't get many oppenings against good players so you have to make every one count as much as you can.

And when opponents are using projectiles their tension gain is less than Hakumen's.

Especially if you cancel the projectiles with a C move as it gives you a free star.

6D is used more if you can IB her blockstrings esp hand clap. Block 1 of the handclaps the next one is free to 6D

2D is... well since Tao's 2A hits low you can use that against the 2A spammy Tao's. So far the one I've gone against loves his 2A after a gatling ->clap->Drive crossup combo.

2D doesn't only counters low, it counters everything that isn't an overhead and is instant like 6D, also it does damage, have less proration for good combos (especially interesting it you're back to the corner as it switches sides) and gives a free star. So it can be very interesting to use instead of 6D against non overheads, the drawback is that if you miss you get counter hit crouched, and getting hit crouched can be very painfull in this game.

[zer0kage]

Zantetsu if it hits at the tip the first hit is actually burst safe. Also yes the ideal combo for Hakumen off random hit comes off Enma (623AA) watch the recent Hakumen vids to see what is it like. That combo is much easier if you use the advance input as well. Hopefully when I receive the console version, I can see if it can combo off 2B because that would be great as part of the mixup. Well 2D does work against 2As in general since it's 'mid' and low. Perhaps I should use it more than 6D against the likes of Noel tbh. However, 6D generally can be followed up more consistently with jC 5C 623AA or dash in 5C (when theyre falling) 236A into something else. 2D and 5D feel abit tight concerning their followups. Most consistent is 6C -> Shippu which does alot of damage already and thats what alot of players do lately. 5C and 2C are possibilities but I think you need tomove forward abit inorder for those normals to hit. Not 100% sure in this part though.

[Angrynord]

I disagree with that. Unlike with OS where OS wouldn't get meter(especially in /) Hakumen can just wait for the zoning to end(either by mistake or by selfmade opening) while he keeps getting stars doing nothing basically. And when opponents are using projectiles their tension gain is less than Hakumen's. So trying to zone Hakumen only makes him more dangerous in the long run.

As for mobility, that's what corners are for:p

Meter isn't the point. Zangief in ST built cubic shit tons of meter just by whiffing lariats while trying to get in. Yes, he was extremely dangerous with a full meter, but that doesn't matter if he can't ever reach his opponent. That's why I made that remark.

Theory fighting is the act of taking facts about a game, character, and/or match-up and extrapolating them out to make a statement that may or may not check with the actual facts of how said game/character/match-up works in reality. Your assertion was that Haku-Men is automatically dangerous to zoners because of his meter gain. Check your post again versus the definition, which, honestly, you should know, since you claim to play fighters. Does it fit? Absolutely. Anyway, theory fighting's generally okay; even the best will lapse into it sometimes. qwerty makes the point, though, that you are theory fighting without any base at all, as you have not played BlazBlue for any extended period of time. The point I'll now make is that you seem to think that you are more correct about a character than someone who has played that character since his release. That's not theory fighting, that's plain old hubris.

Also, qwerty absolutely did not miss your point. He addressed it very clearly. Read his post again. It addresses your assertion that Haku-Men's meter gain makes him dangerous to zoners. I promise you, it's there.

Just a note on theory fighting: Yes, everyone does it at some point or another. It is especially tempting when one doesn't yet have a game. That said, I think it can be quite constructive. I do it in a general sense by making observations and comparing what I see to what I know from previous experience. I do this to fish for confirmation or rejection of my present perceptions, which allows me to have a better idea of how to approach a character once I do have the game in my hands. However, theory fighting becomes bad when one doesn't differ to the judgment of those who have already played a game for some time. Experience doesn't always make one correct (I've been playing Street Fighter for 15 years, but there are plenty of people who have only been playing for five years who have far more knowledge than I); however, if one has absolutely no experience, then one can only be correct about general things, or through luck. The point is, I'm agreeing with you Darago: One should differ to those with experience until one has some of his/her own.

That said, I hope that comments I have made come across as "This is how I see things", not "Things are this way". If any of my perceptions are incorrect, let me know ^_^.

[qwerty]

Good, now you totally missed the point and accused me of theory fighting.

i got your point, it just wasn't a very good one.

even from matchvids of jp players you should be able to see that more often than not, a hakumen with full meter is a dead hakumen, because the "doing nothing" you talked about happens to be the core guessing game of blazblue (and basically every 2d fighter); guarding high or low. people like 0 or buppa might make it look easy sometimes, but it's not. hence why hakumen is so low on the tier list and is going to stay there.

yes, building meter during your opponent's rushdown is nice, but you're going to have to find a way to use it. and more often than not, hakumen never gets the chance. you have to realize that hakumen is a retarded johnny/slayer/baiken hyrbid in a game where you have a loli robo eddie, eddie's long lost brother and dizzy with may's hitbox, and all three of them can effortlessly keep hakumen out of their face.

[reaVer]

i got your point, it just wasn't a very good one.

even from matchvids of jp players you should be able to see that more often than not, a hakumen with full meter is a dead hakumen, because the "doing nothing" you talked about happens to be the core guessing game of blazblue (and basically every 2d fighter); guarding high or low. people like 0 or buppa might make it look easy sometimes, but it's not. hence why hakumen is so low on the tier list and is going to stay there.

yes, building meter during your opponent's rushdown is nice, but you're going to have to find a way to use it. and more often than not, hakumen never gets the chance. you have to realize that hakumen is a retarded johnny/slayer/baiken hyrbid in a game where you have a loli robo eddie, eddie's long lost brother and dizzy with may's hitbox, and all three of them can effortlessly keep hakumen out of their face.

No, my point was, that Hakumen doesn't share the same weakness as OS did. In that OS is forced to rush down if he ever wishes to get anywhere. The longer Hakumen is forced/decides to wait till offense the harder his offense will hit the opponent. This is a feature that's not shared by Johnny, Baiken or Slayer. If there's anything I noticed about Hakumen it's the constant reminder that Hakumen can win the game at any moment even if he's down 90%. So if anything, being patient with Hakumen will pay off unlike it did with OS.

Also, I admit that I have only seen and read about the game. But my experience as an OS player isn't to be disregarded. Dealing with zoning and closing the gap is something that will come with experience, once you can do it however, all what you say will prove incorrect as it did with in regards to OS. Next to that, OS's primary weakness was and still is the lack of meter gain during neutral and defensive game. Rushing/aggressively zoning OS really shows that weakness as OS loses all means to do damage. Of course OS will beat most, if not any, rushers by other means than sheer damage as does Hakumen, but Hakumen simply performs a lot better against zoners.

If anything, I'm trying to tell you not to draw conclusions on what little experience you had. Yeah, you got more on me on the Hakumen department, but you seem to enter battles with a premature "I'm going to lose this one by default", there's no way you will gain any beneficial knowledge if you do that. This in turn applies that all your experience actually means nothing and should be disregarded. The moment you beat these 'difficult' opponents you have experience and you know how to deal with them. At that point you can complain about the matchup all you want and then I'd be willing to believe you.

[Tsak]

Also, I admit that I have only seen and read about the game. But my experience as an OS player isn't to be disregarded.

....

[Maho]

Hopefully when I receive the console version, I can see if it can combo off 2B because that would be great as part of the mixup.

Sadly it doesn't unless 2B is a counter hit.

[qwerty]

dude reaver, i'm not even going into why you're wrong on so many levels. i guess you sort of make a valid point in saying that hakumen and hos share nothing in common, but i didn't need a reminder of that, and neither did anyone else, thanks.

but what i will say is that i have beaten high tier characters- tons of them actually. i've even managed to beat players such as copperdabbit and taoftw a few times (and they are no pushovers by any means). i don't go into matches thinking i'm going to lose because i play a low tier character- if i did, why would i bother playing as hakumen?

just stop reciprocating this dumb discussion. seriously, you're making my head hurt with all this baseless speculation and assumption about a game you have not even played yet. if you're going to get the 360 version when it comes out, i will gladly give you as many matches as you need to gauge how good i am. but until then, i could honestly care less about what you have to say about this game.

[Zuji]

Bit of a newbish question here, but I feel obligated to ask.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgcQD5elWYA

In this video, starting at around 6:48, there's a 95% combo and a 100% combo for Hakumen. Is there any way at all to get out of these?

[4r5]

* Combo

- n. - A series of hits that, once the first connects, the rest will connect without giving the opponent the ability to defend at any point. Some games have moves that act as "Combo" breakers, but most do not.

short of you opponent failing to execute, bursting is the only way out of a combo.

real answer to the question I think you were trying to get at: Don't get hit by mids or overheads, right after Haku-men does Mugen.

[zer0kage]

I want your UPS Hakumen avatar back.

[4r5]

It's still on SRK, where it has always been.

[reaVer]

dude reaver, i'm not even going into why you're wrong on so many levels. i guess you sort of make a valid point in saying that hakumen and hos share nothing in common, but i didn't need a reminder of that, and neither did anyone else, thanks.

but what i will say is that i have beaten high tier characters- tons of them actually. i've even managed to beat players such as copperdabbit and taoftw a few times (and they are no pushovers by any means). i don't go into matches thinking i'm going to lose because i play a low tier character- if i did, why would i bother playing as hakumen?

just stop reciprocating this dumb discussion. seriously, you're making my head hurt with all this baseless speculation and assumption about a game you have not even played yet. if you're going to get the 360 version when it comes out, i will gladly give you as many matches as you need to gauge how good i am. but until then, i could honestly care less about what you have to say about this game.

Ok, apart from 0 playing Hakumen vs some V-13, lets put that aside, your argument is now contradicting itself. You stated(or angrynord did and you supported him) that zoning kills Hakumen's gameplan which will lead to him losing, yet you're beating these toptiers that would kill you by your own words.

I didn't state OS and Hakumen are totally different. Both their basic game relies on getting close to the opponent. I only pointed out the differences between the 2 characters as I assumed you'd know what both OS and Hakumen are about.

Now, I don't have a 360, but if you somehow get your hands on a ps3, feel free to hook me up.

[Silmerion]

Ok, apart from 0 playing Hakumen vs some V-13, lets put that aside, your argument is now contradicting itself. You stated(or angrynord did and you supported him) that zoning kills Hakumen's gameplan which will lead to him losing, yet you're beating these toptiers that would kill you by your own words.

ReaVer, are you suggesting that characters with bad match-ups against other characters will always lose against those characters and/or that hard work can't overcome bad match-ups? Because it sounds as though that's what you're saying.

[Koozebanian Fazoob]

Reaver stop shitting up this thread. You haven't even played the game, you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

[MumMum]

I do believe we need a guide thread on Hakuman. I really wanna get a good start on him when I get the game. I love the "vs." threads so far, they will be a big help. EDIT: Err, maybe I should say first page just needs a up-date?

[taokaka]

Yes a well done guide on haku would be great.

[reaVer]

ReaVer, are you suggesting that characters with bad match-ups against other characters will always lose against those characters and/or that hard work can't overcome bad match-ups? Because it sounds as though that's what you're saying.

No, that's not what I said, I'm actually saying that such a thing can't be the case and that Hakumen matchup specifics aren't as bad as they are made out to be.

So when you say that one thing kills a character's gameplan, that can't be true by default. If you could that character would always lose against you which can be contradicted by a simple matchvid. By no means does it mean it's a problem easy to deal with, but it can be dealt with which is important.

[qwerty]

Reaver stop shitting up this thread. You haven't even played the game, you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

.

I do believe we need a guide thread on Hakuman. I really wanna get a good start on him when I get the game. I love the "vs." threads so far, they will be a big help.

EDIT: Err, maybe I should say first page just needs a up-date?

i did start up a wiki page for h-man, and i'll be adding to that over the course of the week (though it's all just info from this thread and other places atm), so bookmark that i guess.

jackG is doing a good job with the matchup threads here, so hopefully we can get more of those soon.

[JackG]

Hey, so I am stilll in the process of getting back from Austin's SBO qualifiers, so I didn't get a chance to moderate this shitstorm of reaver posting nonsense. To put it bluntly, it's very common for Hakumen to lose with 8 stars, because frankly even with meter he doesn't have the ability to get in. His 623 dash has limited invincibility, and only about the waist. Any v13be able to keep you out pretty handily or arakune worth his salt will be able to zone you with or without meter. Zerokage- only 5b and 5c will combo into 623aa on the ground, and 5b only hits on standing opponents except for Tager. In terms of a guide thread and a combo thread, I'll get working on it when im back. What type of stuff do you guys want to see in a guide thread? Not sure what's helpful or not (move descriptions, etc)

[Angrynord]

One of the criticisms of Dustloop that I have heard is that it is not beginner friendly. I'm not saying that this community is unfriendly, as I find it rather welcoming here. What I mean is that for people who have never played fighters before, it can be difficult to wrap one's head around even the basic introductory character guides, due to the large amounts of jargon. Now, I don't find information here difficult to digest, as I've been playing fighters for quite some time now, but to an absolute beginner, dustloop would be a nightmare. So, that said, I believe a guide thread should have the following:

• A link explaining the notation used on Dustloop
• A link to a thread that explains basic Blazblue System Mechanics
• A section explaining any additional abbreviations or terms that are used
• Brief descriptions of every attack, so even people who are confused by the notation can understand the guide
• Frame data for moves, for intermediate and advanced players. If this is included, perhaps have a link explaining frame data.
• A list of character pros and cons so players know what they're getting into
• A section listing and describing combos (when to use, etc.) Videos would be good.
• Basic match up strategies, with videos showing good examples of good Hakumen play during that match up.

A guide thread really shouldn't be a "general character discussion" thread. It should be a thread simply where the guide exists, and posts should pertain to making the guide better. If you guys wanted to have something like this, I'd be willing to help out. Like I said, I don't have the game yet, so a lot of those things I cannot help with. However, once I get it, if you would like me to do move descriptions or any formatting work, I'd be happy to do it.

[dj asakura]

@Angrynord: A guide like that would be an amazing thing. I'm not exactly *new* to fighter, but I'm by no means a vetern and often have some trouble understanding the terminology that I've been given for a game like this. I think having a guide that goes from your most basic information (explaination of terms, system mechanics, etc..) leading all the way up to advanced combos and setups/strategies would be an amazing guide for any player to have. I would love to see something like this come together. And since there are already some sites that go over things like system mechanics and other basic information, no one would need to write anything up, but just link the site and give some credit to the writer.

[frcflyingjohnny]

Yo Haku-men's 2A is VERY quick, use it to stop pressure and for good links. Also after a CH 3C, do 2B, qcf+A, 6C. It doesn't work on every character, but most of them... probably. I haven't tested it in training mode vs. all the characters but in my matches it worked everytime, though sometimes the combo was grayed out... it doesn't work on every char.

[frcflyingjohnny]

In terms of a guide thread and a combo thread, I'll get working on it when im back. What type of stuff do you guys want to see in a guide thread? Not sure what's helpful or not (move descriptions, etc)

Please do a guide on pressure. How to hold it, stop it or just plain mix it. Haku has scary pressure because he has scary combos. I think everyone should focus on this aspect.

[4r5]

4r5's guide to pressuring with Haku-men (and Johnny)

Stand in front of opponent.