[P4AU] Marie vs Mitsuru

[Celerity]

Discuss your thoughts on the Mitsuru matchup here! Every opinion is helpful.

 

General Gameplan

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Zoning and Trap Placement

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Offense

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Defense

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Things to Look Out For

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Summary

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[Buttface]

236236A/B isn't "safe" like against everyone else because droit is fast and large enough to hit it even with the pushback

SB version is still safe of course

 

Artemesia's whip can shut down careless j.C, j.D, or present pulls from fullscreen

 

I don't know how to deal with Mitsuru's neutral or pressure, so I can't give any insight on what to do, just what not to do

[YoUP1]

This matchup feels impossible. Mitsuru can 5a me from ranges past the starting distance and still get a combo; j.a beats 2b from a distance and leads to beefy crouching damage, and you can't set anything faster than she can hit you from even full screen with her projectile...I feel like as long as the Mitsuru is patient and can aa good enough she can just hold down back and wait to win. How do we even approach this matchup?

[RurouniLoneWolf]

I haven't really fought many Mitsuru players but since there doesn't seem to be much conversation going on in here, I thought I'd try giving you some ideas to experiment and brainstorm with to try and get some conversation going. Feel free to ignore it if you wish.

 

Mitsuru 5A

Her 5A has great reach but it can be jumped over if you act quicker than they 5A. It also has more recovery on whiff than your typical 5A, meaning jumping over it can end in you getting a full combo. Also, in judging how to deal with this, it's important as always to mind your spacing. There isn't too much immediate danager at max range from blocking just the tip so just blocking isn't a bad idea. Better to block than to eat a full combo because you tried to do something too late. You could also consider back dashing through it at this range. Sweeps have been universally buffed in Ultimax so that they have Chest invuln from frame 4 through the first few active frames. If you're within range of Marie's sweep, this is also an option that you can consider going for

Mitsuru j.A (j.B?)

j.A can indeed beat 2B...but j.A has like non existent vertical range to begin with and the only way to hit you out of 2B is if they're low to the ground, possibly from a hop or letting themselves fall from a jump for a bit. Is the normal you're thinking of j.B? I'm going to proceed assuming you meant j.B. Correct me if I'm wrong later.

So, there's j.B in neutral and then there's j.B in pressure. Lets start with j.B in neutral. There's no denying that j.B is an amazing jump in when spaced properly. That said, you still have options. You could try to AA them with 5B. 5B has an overall better vertical and horizontal hitbox but it also doesn't have the head invuln that 2B does. So, your success in AAing with this will come down to a quick draw competition (Whether you can get 5B out before Mitsuru's j.B comes out). Alternatively, like many good poking tools in neutral and like we discussed with 5A, not being in the space they control to begin with is also an option. Like many good jump in pokes, Mitsuru's j.B has a nice vertical reach below her but not necessarily good horizontal reach against an opponent in the air with her. Consider trying to jump back j.B or possibly jump back j.C if you are consider you have the time to do so?

AS far as j.B in pressure goes, hmmmmm, I'm not really sure if it's realistic to do too much about it. To be honest, if you can manage to block this properly, I feel like you've already done more than most will, lol. It's worth noting though that unless something has changed, I don't think Mitsurus can get anything out of j.B unless they OMC it, at least on non-CH and at the height they would hit you to get the fastest possible j.B. So, it might be a good idea to keep an eye on the Mitsuru's meter to consider whether they'll go for it or not.

Summoning vs Mitsuru projectile

I assume you're speaking of Tentarafoo for the projectile? Hmmmm, Tentarafoo can indeed blow up a summon but at the same time, tentarafoo is a big commitment on the Mitsuru's part as well. Even the SB version locks Mitsuru into the animation for 48 frames. At the right distances, jumping forward and doing j.C might be able to punish a Tentarafoo. Once you establish that's an option, you'll be able to get away with a summon from time to time.

Misc.

I did some testing a while ago concerning Mitsuru's 5D/2D vs. Marie's j.C, j.D and summons. As Buttface said, it is indeed possible  for a predictable j.C or j.D  to get blown up by Mitsuru's 2D. However, with 25 frames of startup on 2D, I don't think doing it on reaction to seeing j.C or j.D is an option. Mitsuru's 5D vs summons is also in a similar boat since it has 27 frames of startup. So, it's still good to go for this stuff, just make sure to keep the opponent guessing about your plan of attack.

[Buttface]

Marie 2B doesn't have head invuln

[RurouniLoneWolf]

How sure of this are you? Pretty much every 2B in the game has head invuln unless there's a reason for it not to have it (Aigis when she has ammo, Yukiko and Yukari's 2B because their projectiles). And sure enough, I spend bit of time in training mode just now and was able to get the white circle that signifies attribute invincibility to appear when beating Mitsuru's j.B with 2B sometimes. That said, it was pretty tough to get it to appear at all, let alone consistently. I had to do it for 10-15 minutes before I could sort of get a feel for the timing it takes to make it appear. On the other hand, it didn't require too much effort to get the white circle to consistently appear AAing with Mitsuru's 2B. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the head invuln for Marie's 2B is similar to Naoto's 2B in the sense that it probably only lasts 3 frames and is only head invuln for the very first frame ;.;  

[Buttface]

it might, but even then, if that's the case, there's so little head invuln that it's not worth planning around

The whole reason it has no or so little head invuln is because 2B is safe, fast, has good range, and your hurtbox during it is already pretty small

it's not particularly hard to hit people out of air normals with it because of this

 

you want to use 2B to hit Mitsuru out of the startup of her j.B, if you try during the active frames you're likely going to get hit or maybe clash

[RurouniLoneWolf]

you want to use 2B to hit Mitsuru out of the startup of her j.B, if you try during the active frames you're likely going to get hit or maybe clash

 

That's true but I also never said you should try beating j.B with 2B either, more because j.B's superior horiozntal and vertical range also means you're more likely to whiff it entirely if j.B's spaced well but still. 

[Spring_Raid]

After playing a FT10 against a Mitsuru along with a several others, I wanted give my additional input applied in those matches. Some tidbits were already mentioned by RurouniLoneWolf

 

 

General Gameplan

• Setting up 214A/B and pushing her in the corner is crucial to help control momentum in this MU. Because Mitsuru has better overall range on her normals, can snipe jump-ins more effectively and play better neutral without meter it's important to remain patient and allow 214A/B help set the pace for Marie; This makes the difference between the MU feeling like a 6-4 or 7-3.

 

Item Placement and Setup

• 214A helps prevent Mitsuru from using Coup Droit to get in so try to keep it out often as possible. I'll typically wait until either I'm full screen or after a knockdown before doing 214A. Keep in mind there's still risk of getting hit by Tentarafoo or Droit if done full screen. 
   
• While Mitsuru is in blockstun from 214A, you can either 214C/D to setup an eye while having time to continue your string, go for cross ups or setup 214B; 214C/D confirms lead to the majority of Marie's 3.1K-3.8K meterless damage so it's good to get in a habit of setting up for a possible confirm.

 

Offense

• A good majority of Marie's safe pressure midscreen will come from following up after 214A/B (more so 214A) so it's important to stay patient and slowly inch your way in until one of them leaves your opponent in blockstun or hits; Getting touched before then erases your effort.
   
• Utilizing jC loop combos are important in order to make your 5AA confirms count to match with some of Mitsuru's damage output. You'll also want to use jC little to not at all, in order to keep them guessing when it'll come.
   
• If you've got 25 SP after knockdown for 214AB don't be shy to spend it  and keep up pressure until she's pushed in the corner. This also gives you a better opportunity to go 214C/D confirms or mix ups as mentioned earlier while opening up new combo routes.
   
• Sweep > 236C is one of Marie's better offensive tools not only to push Mitsuru in the corner but convert to a full combo once she's there. It also beats her 5A and coup droit from close range if timed right.

 

Defense

• Unless it's Mitsuru's max range 5A which can be punished by sweep combos, you'll want to stay patient and block until you can back dash out and setup 214x again. Also be wary that any crouching confirm from Mitsuru can make you pay not reacting correctly/guessing wrong.

 

Things to Look Out For

 

• Mitsuru's 2D and 2B can snipe out Marie's jC and jB without  much needed reaction so avoid using either normal full to midcreen and sparingly.
   
• Keep an eye out for Mitsuru's Tentarafoo when setting up 214x 

 

Summary

• This match up is in Mitsuru's favor but winnable with the right amount of patience and getting 214x going. She has too many options to stop Marie's air normals, so playing a strong ground game is key. 

 

[Hiari]

2AB beats mitsuru's 5a, if you see she likes to poke alot then you can punish it and gain momentum.