Diveman Posted May 9, 2015 Posted May 9, 2015 wow wow wasn't Venom like, way better in this version? what happened?
DaiAndOh Posted May 9, 2015 Posted May 9, 2015 wow wow wasn't Venom like, way better in this version? what happened? So even though Venom (as well as I-No and I think Sin for example) pretty much got 90% or more buffs, they're just not good enough to overcome certain bad matchups. Most of Venom's changes, with the main exception being spinning balls to level them all are largely geared towards pressure and combos, which wasn't exactly an area he was lacking... There's nothing new that stops Chipp from teleporting next to him or Millia's speed and pin shutting down a portion of his neutral game. Now he also has less room for error against Slayer, and Bedman and Axl matchups got harder (the latter I think will still probably be in Venom's favor though, not sure about Bedman). On the other hand, the Elphelt grenade changes help Venom maybe more than any other character, he got better in that matchup and probably the Ramlethal one too I imagine!.
Hollysmoke Posted May 9, 2015 Posted May 9, 2015 You pretty much nailed why I'm feeling conflicted about whether or not I want to keep playing her. I could care less about her being Top Tier, I just don't like the idea of having to re-learn what's a completely new, gimped character, when my all my subs got buffed or barely changed. I feel like that's why we're seeing so much less of her in general nowadays. As if learning a new character from scratch isn't going to gimp you? Adjusting to your main is a lot easier to master then building up from scratch again. You like the character? Then stick it out. You make her sound like Slash Robo-ky
RWA Announcer Posted May 9, 2015 Posted May 9, 2015 Can't say I get the comparison since I didn't start playing Guilty Gear until the AC release on PSN, but I'll keep playing her, I just want to hear something positive, since most of the impressions I keep hearing are pretty negative, and my 3 subs didn't really change to much. I just don't want her to be as uphill of a climb as Elizabeth is in Persona. I don't THINK it's going to be bad, I just want somebody to show off what she can do now, since match footage is pretty scarce nowadays.
muerto Posted May 9, 2015 Posted May 9, 2015 well for that, you could just enter her subforum and watch around 8 or so hours of Daiji beating the crap out of people all of which in the last page of her video thread ( http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php/topic/8594-xrd-ramlethal-video-thread-the-future-of-humanity-is-the-past-updated-01112015/page-4 )
Pomparomp Posted May 10, 2015 Posted May 10, 2015 wow wow wasn't Venom like, way better in this version? what happened? in addition to what Dai said, that chart was someone reaction to day 1 loketest stuff, when everyone was freaking out about blitzshield killing venom (this ended up being so untrue it's laughable) and the other is just someone who had been watching at the time. Real tier lists are gonna take a lot longer than this to hammer out. I felt like Venom was A tier in 1.0, and I really don't think that Venom's any stronger weaker overall, even taking into account that Bedman, Axl and Slayer finding their way into the high tier. His buffs made him Venomier, and gave him ways to directly turn meter into massive amounts of chip damage. El's still ridiculous, but she has no answer to his pressure, he's got good pokes for fizzling out pineberry under pressure, and his neutral game v El isn't a nightmare anymore like it is against Millia and Chipp, so if it wasn't for Millia and Chipp still completely dictating his neutral game than he wouldn't have any outright bad matchups. He dominates neutral against large chunks of the cast, has very good, very safe (even if it does take experience and practice to *make* good and safe) pressure. His QV confirms convert more reliably at all spacings, and he can get his best on most of the cast now. His only real problem is those two matchups, but he's more likely to lock down and kill them off a single touch now with his expanded pressure tools. Not to ignore that other characters got buffs too, but I think that in that regard the patch was kind of give and take for Venom. I thought he was in a good spot before 1.0, and I still feel like he's the same good spot in 1.1. At the very least, his buffs are really fun.
DaiAndOh Posted May 10, 2015 Posted May 10, 2015 in addition to what Dai said, that chart was someone reaction to day 1 loketest stuff, when everyone was freaking out about blitzshield killing venom (this ended up being so untrue it's laughable) and the other is just someone who had been watching at the time. Real tier lists are gonna take a lot longer than this to hammer out. I felt like Venom was A tier in 1.0, and I really don't think that Venom's any stronger weaker overall, even taking into account that Bedman, Axl and Slayer finding their way into the high tier. His buffs made him Venomier, and gave him ways to directly turn meter into massive amounts of chip damage. El's still ridiculous, but she has no answer to his pressure, he's got good pokes for fizzling out pineberry under pressure, and his neutral game v El isn't a nightmare anymore like it is against Millia and Chipp, so if it wasn't for Millia and Chipp still completely dictating his neutral game than he wouldn't have any outright bad matchups. He dominates neutral against large chunks of the cast, has very good, very safe (even if it does take experience and practice to *make* good and safe) pressure. His QV confirms convert more reliably at all spacings, and he can get his best on most of the cast now. His only real problem is those two matchups, but he's more likely to lock down and kill them off a single touch now with his expanded pressure tools. Not to ignore that other characters got buffs too, but I think that in that regard the patch was kind of give and take for Venom. I thought he was in a good spot before 1.0, and I still feel like he's the same good spot in 1.1. At the very least, his buffs are really fun. The buffs are hella fun for sure. Venom would still have problematic matchups though. Zato, Faust, I-No, and Sol are not his in favor as well (not sure of 1.1 Sol? But if he's that much the same, then yeah). And yeah, getting knocked down and getting run on is a problem for Venom in a lot of matchups, even against weaker characters if they have effective okizeme..
NecroTheReaper Posted May 10, 2015 Posted May 10, 2015 Can someone explain to me what weakness El has that doesn't make her top? Playing against her, I cant see how she isnt better than Faust, Zato and Millia all around.
RWA Announcer Posted May 10, 2015 Posted May 10, 2015 Lack of defensive options and 1.1 PineBeery not being retarded anymore? And according to our Wiki, "Numerous character-specific combos" and "Gameplan and useful tools are heavily matchup dependent." She's my sub and in my personal Top 3 as well. I can't really find any weakness or holes in her myself to dispute a potential #1 claim though. Especially since the patch nerfed all of the S Tiers.
Destin Posted May 10, 2015 Posted May 10, 2015 The buffs are hella fun for sure. Venom would still have problematic matchups though. Zato, Faust, I-No, and Sol are not his in favor as well (not sure of 1.1 Sol? But if he's that much the same, then yeah). And yeah, getting knocked down and getting run on is a problem for Venom in a lot of matchups, even against weaker characters if they have effective okizeme.. I actually think sin handles venom better than sol. Like, I don't character switch, but if I was in a tournament and I did, I would totally rock sin against a V player.
DaiAndOh Posted May 10, 2015 Posted May 10, 2015 I actually think sin handles venom better than sol. Like, I don't character switch, but if I was in a tournament and I did, I would totally rock sin against a V player. Might be true. or Sol being personally worse for me. Although I do have Sin experience, it's mostly limited to one Sin player..
Kyosuke Kagami Posted May 10, 2015 Posted May 10, 2015 So, uh... Ky got buffed and he got down in the ranks? That is... weird, for me at least. Well, no matter, I will still main him though I don't see his gameplay changing dramatically. Zato and Bedman, on the other hand... OH MY GAWD. Liking how Bedman feels now, and Zato feels riskier in some aspects.
D.R.F. Posted May 10, 2015 Posted May 10, 2015 So, uh... Ky got buffed and he got down in the ranks? That is... weird, for me at least. Well, no matter, I will still main him though I don't see his gameplay changing dramatically. Zato and Bedman, on the other hand... OH MY GAWD. Liking how Bedman feels now, and Zato feels riskier in some aspects.Ky got buffed AND nerfed by the way.... stun edge 90% proration added ain't no buff and neither is him losing level 4 air stun edges. Stagger on CH 5Hs is nice though.
daymendou Posted May 10, 2015 Posted May 10, 2015 Ogawa's list S - MI ZA(at Ogawa's level) FA in that order; then EL AX SO BE all equal A - all others Nage's list "@MF_NB Hello!! I think top tier is MI, ZA, EL. But, I think other characters aren't weak.(^-^)/"
XXXDC Posted May 10, 2015 Posted May 10, 2015 Ogawa's list S - MI ZA(at Ogawa's level) FA in that order; then EL AX SO BE all equal A - all others Nage's list "@MF_NB Hello!! I think top tier is MI, ZA, EL. But, I think other characters aren't weak.(^-^)/" EL will go up
D.R.F. Posted May 10, 2015 Posted May 10, 2015 Whoa, Axl that high? Also Nage's tier list lol no faust
Hollysmoke Posted May 10, 2015 Posted May 10, 2015 Whoa, Axl that high? Also Nage's tier list lol no faust YRC Rensen which also knockdowns now + f.S > 2S gatling REAAAAAALLY helped with his pressure game. You can mix it up with 3P or 6H YRC > Throw or crank up that RISC.
Kyosuke Kagami Posted May 10, 2015 Posted May 10, 2015 Ky got buffed AND nerfed by the way.... stun edge 90% proration added ain't no buff and neither is him losing level 4 air stun edges. Stagger on CH 5Hs is nice though. Oh wait, that doesn't sound bad. I actually wanted Ky to be nerfed in some way. Good to know this.
Justice7541 Posted May 18, 2015 Posted May 18, 2015 YRC Rensen which also knockdowns now + f.S > 2S gatling REAAAAAALLY helped with his pressure game. You can mix it up with 3P or 6H YRC > Throw or crank up that RISC. What's f.S 2S for? Confirming hits on failed jump-out attempts?
Justice7541 Posted May 18, 2015 Posted May 18, 2015 I think he actually does mean f.S > 2S, which is in fact something he got and which helps his combos a lot, but not sure how that would affect his pressure game.
Hollysmoke Posted May 18, 2015 Posted May 18, 2015 What's f.S 2S for? Confirming hits on failed jump-out attempts? f.S was always a really good, fast poke that gives stagger on CH. Now you can use it depending on spacing to combo into aerial routes (IE blocked burst bait, read on a jump out, etc). But why are you jumping against an Axl anyways? Are you sure it's not f.S> 2Hs? I wish :|
Hollysmoke Posted May 18, 2015 Posted May 18, 2015 I think he actually does mean f.S > 2S, which is in fact something he got and which helps his combos a lot, but not sure how that would affect his pressure game. YRC Rensen takes care of that. Here's a really good example of why f.S > 2S is good.http://gfycat.com/OrdinaryClearcutEidolonhelvum In the first blockstring, had the Sol decide to jump out at the end of f.S, you can gatling into 2S. If he keeps deciding to block, you do YRC Rensen and keep pressure going. They either have to block and take chip damage + RISC crank, or burn tension FDing.
ekuah Posted May 22, 2015 Posted May 22, 2015 Ogawa Tierlist 22.5.15 S : Sol, Millia, Zato, Axl, Faust ,Sin ,El A : Ky, May, Chipp, Ino, Bedman, Leo B : Venom, Slayer, Ram C : Pot Source: http://www.twitch.tv/adastream/v/5308877
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