Hollysmoke Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 Maybe Pot actually is that good and you're just bad at him. One of the best GG players and the best Potemkin players said Potemkin is pretty awful. Players like FAB don't just use the limited tools Potemkin has to their full advantage, he's using general system mechanics as well as his wealth of experience as a fighting game player to do well. Since GG gives you more freedom to act than other fighting games, he's able to really push the limits. Tier-lists aren't considering a player's experience or knowledge but rather the tools and advantages a character has in certain situations. AC Potemkin had a ton of tools to get him in and do lots of damage, tools he doesn't have anymore (AND they nerfed his explosive grappler damage as well). So not only is a lot more work to get in as Potemkin, it's also less damage. Shoto characters like Ky and Sol will always be mid tier at worst because they have such a varied toolkit.
SoWL Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 Shoto characters like Ky and Sol will always be mid tier at worst because they have such a varied toolkit.This feels like the CP discussion thread and its "Imbalanced by design" arguments all over again.By the way, Pot lost exactly 0 ways of getting in, unless you count 2S's vacuum effect. Hell, he actually gained some (6K and ICPM). What he did lose is some tools that gave him mad momentum when he did get in, such as Heat's knockdown or 5P. And some damage, sure.
Hollysmoke Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 This feels like the CP discussion thread and its "Imbalanced by design" arguments all over again. By the way, Pot lost exactly 0 ways of getting in, unless you count 2S's vacuum effect. Hell, he actually gained some (6K and ICPM). What he did lose is some tools that gave him mad momentum when he did get in, such as Heat's knockdown or 5P. And some damage, sure. Momentum would be a better word for it, yes. ty. Every fighting game should be imbalanced by design, otherwise every character would be basically the same. I think Potemkin got toned down because they were fearful of how his momentum would be because of YRC changes. Characters will be closer that it's not broken, but not too close that it's boring.
Sytha Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 Ky and Sol have been low tier and bottom tier in Ky's case (X and XX) before. Character archetype has almost nothing to do with general strength. Even Eddie has sucked before. I can kinda see this argument for Millia but really no one else is just "this is amazing" by default. If you want an example of why what you said is wrong about them having tools to deal with everything look at AC+R Ky could not do a single thing against Justice other than lose if he got knocked down and Justice set up her bomb field. He could try to AHSE thru the Low and High bomb but if Justice FRCed one of them then that would fail and Ky would have to get cranked guard bar and lose like 20% of his life in chip damage just to get another chance at getting the match back to neutral. Johnny and Slayer also were pretty much screwed vs. her too. Sol could at least f.S the bombs to set them off and take one hit of damage. But yea that situation was not one he was well equipped to dealing with either. Worrying about the tiers for Loketest is really pointless btw. Should just keep this to 1.0 XRD.
StylisH Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 This feels like the CP discussion thread and its "Imbalanced by design" arguments all over again. By the way, Pot lost exactly 0 ways of getting in, unless you count 2S's vacuum effect. Hell, he actually gained some (6K and ICPM). What he did lose is some tools that gave him mad momentum when he did get in, such as Heat's knockdown or 5P. And some damage, sure. Please, no. I'm begging you all, no.
rubedo777 Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 One of the best GG players and the best Potemkin players said Potemkin is pretty awful. Players like FAB don't just use the limited tools Potemkin has to their full advantage, he's using general system mechanics as well as his wealth of experience as a fighting game player to do well. Since GG gives you more freedom to act than other fighting games, he's able to really push the limits. Tier-lists aren't considering a player's experience or knowledge but rather the tools and advantages a character has in certain situations. AC Potemkin had a ton of tools to get him in and do lots of damage, tools he doesn't have anymore (AND they nerfed his explosive grappler damage as well). So not only is a lot more work to get in as Potemkin, it's also less damage. Shoto characters like Ky and Sol will always be mid tier at worst because they have such a varied toolkit. Except AC potemkin didn't have YRC Hammerfall(or YRC anything really) that let you react to exactly to the state of the opponent. This option really makes xrd potemkin scarier than previous games I think.
Red Star Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 Except AC potemkin didn't have YRC Hammerfall(or YRC anything really) that let you react to exactly to the state of the opponent. This option really makes xrd potemkin scarier than previous games I think. Except AC Potemkin had FRC Hammerfall which is better. Edit: to add to the actual discussion of Xrd tier list. Potemkin seems weak, which shouldn't be confused with being trash. He isn't CT Tager vs unwinnable matchups. It is just that Potemkin doesn't get to do the ridiculous oki games the high and top tiers get to do. He doesn't corner carry into hard knockdown, he doesn't have high damage midscreen. His heat change really made things a pain since he launches them across the screen and unless you hit some arbitrary combo numbers it won't cause a hard knockdown. It is hard to punish people running away after you knock them down. He has tools, he just simply isn't as ridiculous as the strong characters in the game.
rubedo777 Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 Except AC Potemkin had FRC Hammerfall which is better. I don't think it's better...first, the FRC is much harder to perform. You also can't FRC at any point during the Hammerfall and it doesn't slow down time. The slowdown allows not only for the potemkin player to react to the situation better, but it also makes it harder for the opponent to escape (since their escape options are slowed down).
Hollysmoke Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 Ky and Sol have been low tier and bottom tier in Ky's case (X and XX) before. Character archetype has almost nothing to do with general strength. Even Eddie has sucked before. I can kinda see this argument for Millia but really no one else is just "this is amazing" by default. If you want an example of why what you said is wrong about them having tools to deal with everything look at AC+R Ky could not do a single thing against Justice other than lose if he got knocked down and Justice set up her bomb field. He could try to AHSE thru the Low and High bomb but if Justice FRCed one of them then that would fail and Ky would have to get cranked guard bar and lose like 20% of his life in chip damage just to get another chance at getting the match back to neutral. Johnny and Slayer also were pretty much screwed vs. her too. Sol could at least f.S the bombs to set them off and take one hit of damage. But yea that situation was not one he was well equipped to dealing with either. Worrying about the tiers for Loketest is really pointless btw. Should just keep this to 1.0 XRD. Fighting against Justice isn't playing a fighting game anymore, it's a goddamn bullet hell game. I do see your fair point though. The point I was just trying to make is that the cast of characters have a clear set of strengths and weaknesses. In Potemkin's case, the strengths aren't enough to justify the weaknesses at the moment.
Red Star Posted February 13, 2015 Posted February 13, 2015 I don't think it's better...first, the FRC is much harder to perform. You also can't FRC at any point during the Hammerfall and it doesn't slow down time. The slowdown allows not only for the potemkin player to react to the situation better, but it also makes it harder for the opponent to escape (since their escape options are slowed down). FRC Hammerfall lets you actually hammerfall. They are forced either into hitstun or blockstun. You don't have to react all, they either got hit, which in AC is a combo into hard knockdown, or they block then they are in blockstun and you get to continue pressure. Both scenarios are better than what YRC hammerfall gives you, the being easier part is the only part that YRC does better. This Potemkin is no where near as scary as AC Pot or +R Pot. I think a couple tweaks are he will be arguably up with the rest of the cast, like a heat that gives hard knockdown.
HeWhoRocksAlot Posted May 7, 2015 Author Posted May 7, 2015 Anyone else kept track of notable players discussing their tier's for ver.1.10 for the sake of compilating them...? So far, I've only seen Shuuto opinion on ver.1.10 but that was during the location test, way before 1.10 officially hit arcades. Ver.1.10 arcade balance patch came out on March 19.-Shuuto's GGXrd Tier List- March 3 Really Strong: Faust, Millia, Zato Strong: Axl, Elphelt, I-No, Bedman, May, Sin Kind of Strong: Sol, Ky, Slayer Bad: Venom, Chipp, Ramlethal, Leo ?: Potemkin
ApertureBlack Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 Anyone else kept track of notable players discussing their tier's for ver.1.10 for the sake of compilating them...? So far, I've only seen Shuuto opinion on ver.1.10 but that was during the location test, way before 1.10 officially hit arcades. Ver.1.10 arcade balance patch came out on March 19.-Shuuto's GGXrd Tier List- March 3 Really Strong: Faust, Millia, Zato Strong: Axl, Elphelt, I-No, Bedman, May, Sin Kind of Strong: Sol, Ky, Slayer Bad: Venom, Chipp, Ramlethal, Leo ?: Potemkin From my experience most of the top stayed the same, minus Ram while Axl, Bedman, and Slayer got bumped up. From me watching/talking with others. S: Faust > Millia >= Zato A: Elphelt > Bedman >=Slayer >=Axl B: Ino >= Ky > May >= Venom >= Sin C: Ram > Leo >Potemkin Havnt seen enough about new Chipp vs the cast to say anything about him. Potemkin still looks bad though
Hollysmoke Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 What's the reasoning behind these two tier lists? They don't make sense to me based on the patch notes and my own experiences. There were 2 additional loketests and changes since March. Arbitrary character rankings are pointless. Give a reasoning for the tier list.
mynus Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 What's the reasoning behind these two tier lists? They don't make sense to me based on the patch notes and my own experiences. There were 2 additional loketests and changes since March. Arbitrary character rankings are pointless. Give a reasoning for the tier list. Makes no sense at this moment.
HeWhoRocksAlot Posted May 8, 2015 Author Posted May 8, 2015 What's the reasoning behind these two tier lists? They don't make sense to me based on the patch notes and my own experiences. There were 2 additional loketests and changes since March. Arbitrary character rankings are pointless. Give a reasoning for the tier list. Shuuto's was based around the last loction test IIRC, so I'm not considering it notable enough... I only mention it since that was the only thing discussed around for a tier discussion within the months that passed for ver. 1.10. I'm only asking if there were more discussion about the Japanese players opinion on 1.10 since they been playing that this entire time.
MechaBaphomet Posted May 8, 2015 Posted May 8, 2015 Why did Ram get knocked down so far? I know you can hit he swords now but what else did they do to her?
D.R.F. Posted May 9, 2015 Posted May 9, 2015 ^ idk why she is so shit, like some characters I am pretty sure have bad matchups against her still. Anyways isn't a tier list constructed around matchups? How are you putting all these characters together into a qualitative list without putting that element into play?
DaiAndOh Posted May 9, 2015 Posted May 9, 2015 Ram isn't "shit". However, many matchups have significantly changed for her for the worse in some way. Her neutral game from far range needs to be completely re-adjusted compared to what it was, and what it was compared to what it is could be quite dominating....
RWA Announcer Posted May 9, 2015 Posted May 9, 2015 You pretty much nailed why I'm feeling conflicted about whether or not I want to keep playing her. I could care less about her being Top Tier, I just don't like the idea of having to re-learn what's a completely new, gimped character, when my all my subs got buffed or barely changed. I feel like that's why we're seeing so much less of her in general nowadays.
RWA Announcer Posted May 9, 2015 Posted May 9, 2015 They're supposed to be about matchups in theory Fenrir, but I honestly haven't seen a single, legitimate, comprehensive, matchup chart for this game that wasn't from Eventhubs. And that's not just for Xrd, but for BBCP and Ultimax as well. I guess none of the strong players feel like making one, or they don't have enough experience in every single matchup to assign a correct number to all of them?
D.R.F. Posted May 9, 2015 Posted May 9, 2015 I haven't seen a matchup chart in a while, like for a lot of games. I would like to see what people would be able to put together, since it's interesting to see not only the numbers, but the thought process to why advantage is given to which character in a given matchup.
DaiAndOh Posted May 9, 2015 Posted May 9, 2015 Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think a lot of matchup charts came from Arcadia magazine (with input from players), which doesn't exist anymore.
RWA Announcer Posted May 9, 2015 Posted May 9, 2015 I want to say it was late last year, like November or December of 2014 I think?
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