[Xrd] Leo Whitefang General Discussion

[IFD Flexo]

^^^^  I did mean RRC, sorry about that.  Thank you for the correction, Shadow.

[IFD Flexo]

I actually have a quick question that's more related to general gameplay than Leo specifically:  does Just Defense reduce block stun by a universal number of frames across the board, or does it vary depending on the move/character/etc?  Sorry for the short derail, btw.

[RentalBlackout]

It varies according to the level of attack. The higher the level, the greater the amount of blockstun reduced, in general. I think the Attack Attribute table shows it.

[Drake Aldan]

http://www.twitch.tv/drakealdan/b/607023912

 

Today's session.

 

I really do not do a lot of losing (... well at least to early morning randoms)... Is it me, or is it Leo? (Or is it both?)

Or maybe it's just online, and I need to stop puffing myself up over it...

 

---

 

Venom was jumping out of my BT pressure today (!)

I have to wonder if it was because I was using BT P and not BT K.

 

I was able to slam him back down with BT H because he was not using Faultless Defense, but... maybe BT P not catching pre-jump frames is a function of the lag?

 

It's somewhat concerning, since I use BT P specifically for lag/online play, since there are more throw invincibility frames...

 

---

 

Getting a little better with my confirms... Not by too much, though. :P

BT H > BT K > BT S > rekkas is the easy modo stuff I try to do from the overhead. Well, when people block long enough to let me point-blank overhead, anyway.

 

---

 

I suppose I should start thinking about how to bait bursts...

Seems like 5K > cS, block works.

5K > cS > 5H > 236S, block works too.

 

Using the fS~P/5H~P block works, you get a free 6H dash 5K > cS air combo. Pretty sweet.

Because you can't dash before the 6H though things can be kind of tricky... Depending on when you hit them with 6H, it'll result in them air teching, or a hard knockdown (feels like you get this if you delay it a bit)... If you get the air tech you're more likely to drop your combo, and if you run up and 5K > fS comes out you're more likely to drop your combo.

 

Maybe someone can look into it?

 

You can do these as well:

 

precharge 2H > [2]8H

2H > 632146H

6H hold, BT S > 632146S (pretty good damage!)

6H hold, BT S > 214S (extra combos in the corner)

6H hold, BT S > BT H (dash twice and you should still have enough advantage to go for regular BT pressure)

 

I think I would use the last one the most.

 

YRC OS looks like it'd be difficult to implement...

[Cross]

http://www.twitch.tv/godsgarden/b/604169710

 

Almost 3 hours of Kazunoko playing Leo. He had close a 100% win rate. 

[Mal]

After watching it for 1h, this is what I got -

Kazunoko's BnB's:
5K cS 6K Rekkas ( > RC >66 cS > jS(2) jc j.K jHS 236HS)
BT K P K S Rekkas
BT HS S HS S Rekkas

Lot's of pressure with 5K cS 6K (repeat)
After Rekkas, oki with 5[HS] BT mixups, specially in the corner. He doesn't use 236HS (whiff) oki.
236HS (hits) oki mostly after Flashkick. 

NO 6HS or even 5HS on blockstrings. They were mostly used on combos and to enter BT stance for oki.

He abused resets with Rekka12(hit), then BT KPKS Rekkas, or BT K HS (overhead hits) > overhead combo. Also Rekka 12(on hit), backdash, BT H
After Rekka12(blocked) backdash.
Almost never used BT D. Prefers to use Backdash when you would normally expect a BT D. 

But boy, did he abuse the rekka resets. Is it really better to do them instead of the 236HS whiff oki? What's the frame advantage of Rekka12 on hit, anyway?

[Dime_x]

Kazunokos leo wasnt impressive at all except for his opponents unwillingness to block. Most of what i saw from kaz seemed to be day 1 stuff and along with kazunokos skill at spacing and reading situations he went on a tear against people. Netplay is a REALLY bad way to see how a character plays. You play people with your one string and mixup and ot works over and over again.

Looking at longer sets is when useful info will come out, or when people know the matchup at length. It kinda isnt fun to see kaz flowchart the same thing over and over and get wins because that isnt indicative of anything outside of ranked. This is in no way to say that id be able to even take a round off of him, but he was winning because hes good, not necessarily because his tactics were.

Yesterday i played against an opponent offline, he WOULD throw 6H and 236H on reaction and other than that, never pressed buttons (except in one situation) he was using ram.

Leos weaknesses became super apparent really quick, not only against that guy but against the other people playing the game.

The people i played against blocked alot... Most of my dash ins would get blocked. Other than that my opponents would just stay in the air the whole match. Which is pretty anti leo.

I couldnt footsie with them well because leos dash is slow compared to most runs. His buttons are decent but without a run to set them up they wiff all day or you get caught out not pressing things and get put into pressure. His AA is suspect because it lacks active frames and leo is really hard to force the opponents hand with because of his neutral.

All in all i found ALOT more weaknesses with him than i thought i would. Like when i see jap players playing and stuff, they tend to get alot of their starters to actually hit. With leo i feel like all my starters are going to get blocked and an on the ball opponent will catch my 6H and 236H on reaction which leaves with me with not a whole lot of options.

Going into rekka1 on block was putting me into my opponents pressure, blocked f.s was getting punished everytime as was blocked 5H...

So i felt like i didnt have any deep string enders that were any kind of safe as far as not allowing me to be put into pressure easily agterwards. And since my deep strings were so unsafe, it made me really have to be super accurate with counterhit setups.

I just felt like i needed to be WAY more accurate than my opponents to win, and even my correct guesses could be wrong since leo is a frame trap character, i can giess right on frame trapping a normal, but if i mistime my frame trap to early they block, if i do it to late im the one that gets countered... It just doesnt seem to bode really well for leo imho.

If they are mashers... Or its online then leo is pretty beast if he gets first block... But if its offline he seems to suck. At least from what ive plyed against for now.

If one of his fireballs werent a charge it would do really well for him, but right now his neutral feels kinda bad and so does his offense.

[DarkZero197]

Quick Note

 

Say for example, you combo into rekkas in the corner, so they stay in the corner

After the 3rd rekka they are still in juggle state, only a 2K, 2P, and 2S pick the character up but the juggle after does not last long enough for you to get a full extension

 

So what I did was 2K xx HS Fireball

 

The opponent has to wake up into it

 

This is better against characters without reliable reversals, or if they have less than 50% tension, or if the opponent does not know the matchup/respecting you way to much (obviously loses to bursts but that can be baited)

 

Since you are more likely to have obtained 25% bar by the time you do the reset, YRC the HS Fireball

 

From here you can go multiple ways, you can jump and go overhead (iad, or a simple jumpin works)

Empty Jump low

Dash up Dust or 2K lead into fullcombos (the dust is sort of reactable, also make sure you delay the dust so that the fireball doesnt reset them)

You can Use HS to go into stance and go for a high low from stance but you can probably be hit out of it, so parry is also an option

 

In a way you have a sort of vortex against a good portion of characters, since I believe most dont have a reliable reversal

 

Just something I kinda came up with, if someone found it before me and already posted please let me know

[Drake Aldan]

What's the frame advantage of Rekka12 on hit, anyway?

 

At about 27:43 http://www.twitch.tv/godsgarden/b/604169710?t=27m38s he goes for his reset, and gets CH by Ky's 2P (5f startup).

We can't see Kaz's inputs to know what he was doing at the time, but I remember not liking the 236H reset at all during my initial testing.

 

Actually, I went and looked up what I wrote back then.

 

Does anyone know what the numbers are on this? In training it feels like you're even, or maybe slightly negative. Sol's 5P seems to be winning out, and he also has the option of chicken blocking...

 

Sol's 5P is 4f, Ky's 2P is 5f... I don't think this looks good. You would have to threaten their mash with BT D- since you are not going to be backdash whiff punishing 5Ps/2Ps.

Even then they have the option of just holding upback (timed FD)- if you go for a reset they jump out, and if you finish with Dritt well they were getting hit anyway.

 

Maybe it is an option depending on the matchup, or if the other player is just plain ignorant about Leo (get what you can, right?) but, for general play, eh...

 

(It does seem that if you are able to get away with it, standing resets are a great way to crank them into a stun.)

 

5K > cS stagger pressure was interesting to see, but I haven't been punished enough for using 6H to develop that myself...

Jump back, [4]6H seems obvious in retrospect but I just have not been doing it. I need to steal that.

 

 

Maybe there will be some offline Leo footage at KiT? (Does anyone have any from Japan, is that a thing?)

[zankoku]

One of the nicer things I did pick up from watching Kazunoko was thus:

5K > ( cl.S > ) f.S > 6K is fairly nice. Blocked f.S > 6K leaves only a 2f gap, during which 6K is well into its throw invuln frames, and on block 6K gives you +4. 6K can validly confirm into rekkas, though you've got the usual restriction of only being able to connect f.S > 6K on crouchers.

This isn't as nice as a blocked 6H, since 6K pushes you away instead of getting you closer, but you'll probably have to work to earn the respect needed to force a 6H to be blocked, so this little string can make them less willing to press buttons for that.

 

 

As for rekka12 > mixup, you're -5 on hit (-4 on crouch hit), so it probably only works if people are panicking with buttons that aren't Punch, or if people are unfamiliar with Leo and are down-backing the wrong way on your reset. For what it's worth, you might be too far away to get thrown, and bt.P/bt.K can avoid dash-in throws, but with such a disadvantage you're at risk of dealing with all manner of proper disrespect. The reward is great, of course (you're sacrificing literally the last hit of your combo for a potentially new combo), but this definitely seems to play on either ignorance or "lazy block".

 

EDIT:

I've added images for Leo's moveset in his normal wiki page.

http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=Leo_Whitefang_(GGXRD)

[DarkZero197]

Quick Note

Say for example, you combo into rekkas in the corner, so they stay in the corner

After the 3rd rekka they are still in juggle state, only a 2K, 2P, and 2S pick the character up but the juggle after does not last long enough for you to get a full extension

So what I did was 2K xx HS Fireball

The opponent has to wake up into it

This is better against characters without reliable reversals, or if they have less than 50% tension, or if the opponent does not know the matchup/respecting you way to much (obviously loses to bursts but that can be baited)

Since you are more likely to have obtained 25% bar by the time you do the reset, YRC the HS Fireball

From here you can go multiple ways, you can jump and go overhead (iad, or a simple jumpin works)

Empty Jump low

Dash up Dust or 2K lead into fullcombos (the dust is sort of reactable, also make sure you delay the dust so that the fireball doesnt reset them)

You can Use HS to go into stance and go for a high low from stance but you can probably be hit out of it, so parry is also an option

In a way you have a sort of vortex against a good portion of characters, since I believe most dont have a reliable reversal

Just something I kinda came up with, if someone found it before me and already posted please let me know

A way to escape this is jump back a Faultless Defense, or if you are paying attention recover forward and press a button that's quick, but I don't think many people will know that early on or for a long time for that matter

[Drake Aldan]

Kaz is really good at nailing air throws. Man, how does he do that? He makes it look easy...

 

Also, screw him, all of Japan, and that 1F delay up top. Maaaaaaan

 

EDIT:

I've added images for Leo's moveset in his normal wiki page.

http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=Leo_Whitefang_(GGXRD)

 

Awesome, cool stuff.

 

So what I did was 2K xx HS Fireball

 

This is interesting. Reminiscent of the 2K > gunflame oki I get hit with all the time.

 

It seems reliant on the opponent not teching/mashing buttons to tech. Neutral tech 5P and (as you said) forward tech airjabs knock Leo out of the projectile startup.

Still, it's probably a good addition to the bag of tricks, as long as you don't use it too much.

 

---

 

Watching Kaz had me thinking about frametraps again.

5K > 5H only fails against Chipp's 3f 5P; it trades vs 4f 2P (and trade means you still win).

This would let you do 5K, 5K, 5K over and over for stagger pressure... though I don't know how good that would be (doesn't seem too hot to me).

 

One of the Leos he fought seemed like he was mashing 5K to travel, that was kind of weird.

 

cS gives so much blockstun that you... really cannot gatling into a frametrap. The pushback is so much that if you do 5K > cS and then try to 5K again, all they have to do is sit there and punish your whiff...

 

Stagger pressure in Persona was doable because of the long delay possible on 5A~A... No such delays here on almost any of Leo's moves. It seems Kaz was getting away with stagger pressure here because... apparently Japanese have a predisposition to moral play???

I suppose that make sense.

 

So much respect. I wake up in the morning, I just get mashed on.

 

---

 

I am indeed stealing jump back, [4]6H. You should have enough charge to toss it out right when you land.

 

---

 

It seems that if you can do 236H whiff oki, you can also do dash, 5H hold. (Seems fairly lenient, too.)

Convenient for when you're nearing the corner, so you don't put yourself into it should you guess wrong...

 

Before, if I wasn't dead in the corner where I could just whiff 5H point blank, I would toss out a [4]6H or something.

I'll be doing this instead from now on.

[Dime_x]

Good stuff guys im sorry for the doom and gloom of my earlier post, but i just thought things were going to be different offline and was down on them not being that way, and also, yhe fact that the people i have to play against all main top tier or close:

Millia,ram,sol,zato,chipp... Was the lineup i was playing against and im not just learnong leo, im also learning GG since this is my first GG game (i never got into BB and skullgirls is vastly different from this game) so having said that, ive had to make leo my second. After using him against axl and ram and even chipp i can see that the flaws arto numaerous for me to rely on him for my GG experience alone, but hes by far still my favorite character in the game... Even if he can barely move against ram and axl.

Ok so, moving on... The one thing i really liked about kazunokos play and something that i meant to do offline but never really did that will shore up some of the weaknesses i was feeling, was to do 5k c.s 6K. For whatever reason i wasnt aware that 6k was cancelable lol

So this will be my new go to string. ALSO:

Though its character specific after that string on hit, leo can link 2p against some characters! which means he can then gatling into 5k and finish the combo from there. Its a MUCH easier link against crocuhing characters whereas the link against standing characters feels like a 1 or 2 framer.

So use it to confirm crouch and then link into crouch comboable gatlings, or on standing hit just cancel the 6k into rekkas.

Sorry but backturned "reset" doesnt work offline. I got interrupted every time i used that offline.

Oh and aaginst an opponent with a burst DO NOT go into rekka series while facing the corner but not exactly in it... My opponent was bursting me into the corner and then destroying me with corner stupidity. And even if leo burts after that, since he is the one cornered he doesnt actually get out of the corner... So its a real shit thing to have to deal with.

I have an answer for when my opponents try to punish my blocked 5h now though... Sweep. Sweep is fully delayable from 5H and forces some respect.

Another answer i theory fightered up is on blocked rekka 1, just backdash rather than allow myself to be pressured afterward. They can read this and punish preemptively... But i digress.

Something else:

Throws arent breakable in xrd... I didnt know this. But now that i do, an ok throw starter is 5k>throw. A pretty decent pause there, but the kicker is that the throw is option selectable with 6K whihc is unthrowable. So... Ill have to try this.

Also, the best player in my group was saying that if leo had any throw invulnerable moves, that spamming them on my opponents wakeup would be a good look since people mash throw on wakeup.. And he was right. I got a good amount of counterhits from doing 6k on my opponents wakeup. After things like sweep or hitting them with 28h.

But i ate alot of reversals as well so... Perhaps not the best thing, but good to keep in mind for good reads, especially after sweep hits.

5k cs 6k dash (repeat) might be a good try on block. make that the threat and then start to do f.S or dash FD break >throw to counter their interrupt/block on good reads.

2p 5k repeat once. Might be a valuable pressure string as well since leos 5k is plus 1 and his 2p is 5 frame startup thats only a 4 frame gap for them to mash through... Will take actual testing offline to see how things work out. Some things will be good snd some will be terrible... As goes with all things theory fighter.

[DarkZero197]

http://youtu.be/gX62J5_qe9I

Just a demonstration of what I found

[DarkZero197]

Note, you can just do the heavy fireball without the 2K, it's more guaranteed

Makes me feel bad that it may be better than what I find

Also this one you can't air tech or jump away from so

Yeah, salt levels rising cuz my setup is kinda unnecessary

[Drake Aldan]

Another for the bag of tricks.

 

http://youtu.be/Lgd1EsbKlLc

 

6H YRC in the "infinite" leads nicely into a throw. The YRC slowdown means they cannot jab or throw you out of it...

They have to reversal, throw you out of 6H before the YRC, or jump to escape.

 

Why exactly a character who thrives off of matchup ignorance is paid DLC, I'll never know.

To be honest, playing randoms feels like cheating...

[DarkZero197]

It does, so i think I know his guaranteed good and bad matchups and so far I have one for each

Potemkin is a good MU, and the bad is Zato

I have a friend who plays Zato and once I block I die, and I ran a set with a Potemkin, he beat me most times but that's only cuz I screwed up a lot of setups, but the last match I stunned him and he rage quit cuz I was about to IK

I just wish he was like neutral or -1 or -2 after the first rekka

It would make frame trapping certain characters easier

But one can only wish

[DarkZero197]

It does, so i think I know his guaranteed good and bad matchups and so far I have one for each

Potemkin is a good MU, and the bad is Zato

I have a friend who plays Zato and once I block I die, and I ran a set with a Potemkin, he beat me most times but that's only cuz I screwed up a lot of setups, but the last match I stunned him and he rage quit cuz I was about to IK

I just wish he was like neutral or -1 or -2 after the first rekka

It would make frame trapping certain characters easier

But one can only wish

 

 

Accidental post please ignore

[UYG_Ookami]

What should ones play style be when playing leo. I know he is supposed to be played as a rush down character but I'm quite partial to opening my opponents defenses making my way in using his rekkas. Is this the right way to play him?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Drake Aldan]

Is this the right way to play him?

 

Because of BT based setplay Leo only needs one knockdown to come back, even if he is dicerolling the whole time.

If your opponent lets you rush them down you should, but otherwise you can afford to be very patient getting in.

 

---

 

[4]6S seems very good for controlling space, stopping opponents from rushing in on you... Since it's two hits it works well to negate projectiles, too. Runs right through Zato's drills, Ky's regular Stun Edge, etc.

 

---

 

Mashing 5K to "travel" along the ground may not be so bad, especially if your opponent likes to jump away/stay airborne. You might be able to catch them with it...?

 

---

 

If you get the feeling that your opponent will airdash in on you, a preemptive j236H may work as an air-to-air (?!)

It has a pretty big hitbox...

[Dime_x]

Should we have a strings thread? Like basically varying strings and what they are good for? Or would that be to convoluted/only a circle jerk that no one goes for...

[UYG_Ookami]

Thank you! This helped a lot

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[felirx]

But i ate alot of reversals as well so... Perhaps not the best thing, but good to keep in mind for good reads, especially after sweep hits.

 

6K seems very valid on Oki to beat out throw smashers if you're not doing any bt setup or fireball setups. Properly meaty timed 5k should work as well as a pressure starter.

 

Reversals will always beat 90% of OKi setups from any character. You simply have to read the opponent and how likely they are to do it.If they don't do it and you tried baiting it with a backdash or just blocking, it's their reward for being patient. If they did reversal, you get a strong combo as your reward for a proper read. If you tried to go for Oki and the opponent reversaled, it's their reward again but now you have some knowledge that the player could have tendency to rely on it.

 

If the player has 50% meter and has a decent dp like Sol's or Leos, the likelyhood of the opponent going for it grows a lot. The usual way to bait out a RRC reversal for punish is to make it completely wiff (or either BT.D it in Leo's case). If you bait it with a basic block, they get free pressure from RRC reversal.

[Kiba]

Should we have a strings thread? Like basically varying strings and what they are good for? Or would that be to convoluted/only a circle jerk that no one goes for...

 

I feel like this sort of information is better in some sort of strategy guide (you can incorporate other things into it too), or better, the wiki.

[Kikuichimonji]

Quick Note

 

Say for example, you combo into rekkas in the corner, so they stay in the corner

After the 3rd rekka they are still in juggle state, only a 2K, 2P, and 2S pick the character up but the juggle after does not last long enough for you to get a full extension

 

So what I did was 2K xx HS Fireball

 

The opponent has to wake up into it...

That last hit that you're doing is called an OTG (off the ground hit). They can tech it and hit you out of your fireball. I don't think you even get to the point where the fireball stays out when you YRC before they can hit you. The 2K does barely any damage, anyway, so just do the fireball YRC right after you hit the third rekka without doing an OTG.

 

Also, this is not a vortex because of Tension gain penalties. Basically, because you did the YRC, you hardly gain any meter from any immediate followup combo that you do. So you cannot do this infinitely. I'm not saying that you shouldn't do the YRC fireball (I'm thinking you totally should most times), but just remember that you're sacrificing 25% meter plus any additional meter you would have gotten with another setup.

Reversals will always beat 90% of OKi setups from any character.

Lots of characters have safe jumps that also lead to mixups. Eddie has meaty Drill where he's recovered before you even wake up into it. Millia can beat wakeup throw with instant air j.K. Sol can meaty Gunflame YRC to force you to block a high/low. People go to these mixups because they are safe. If your character has something that is reversal-proof, you need to abuse the hell out of that in GG. If you have to hard bait an opponent's reversal without any setup that auto-baits it, you are putting yourself into a serious guessing game that you probably don't need to be in. You need to know the weaknesses of stuff like Eddie's Amopheous (doesn't hit right in front of him) so that you can abuse those weaknesses.

 

If the player has 50% meter and has a decent dp like Sol's or Leos, the likelyhood of the opponent going for it grows a lot. The usual way to bait out a RRC reversal for punish is to make it completely wiff (or either BT.D it in Leo's case). If you bait it with a basic block, they get free pressure from RRC reversal.

Getting Sol to spend 50% meter on a blocked DP is worth it because all he has to mix you up afterwards is Wild Throw, and if you are smart about getting out that's not really a good option for him.

Avoiding a VV RC on a guess every time by getting out of its way is giving the move too much respect. If you avoid it successfully and do a 30% combo... Sol still has meter to VV uppercut again. Using Leo's counters is a good option, but meter is life in GG. If you can take Sol's meter, sometimes that's even better than getting to punish the uppercut. You can even just do a Dead Angle attack to trade meter with him and knock him back down.

 

 

6H YRC in the "infinite" leads nicely into a throw. The YRC slowdown means they cannot jab or throw you out of it...

They can throw you, it's just a 1 frame timing after the flash. I tested. Also, because you're doing this off a YRC, if they commit to a jab or whatever before your YRC comes out (they're not in blockstun!) then you will probably get hit out of your YRC and lose the meter without getting the flash. It's still a good strat, but just be aware that it is possible for them to Gold Burst/throw you.