[Xrd] Leo Whitefang General Discussion

[greatfernman]

I translated the full changelist from: 

https://twitter.com/hontosumanhossa/status/563348317392736256

https://twitter.com/hontosumanhossa/status/563348666123968512

https://twitter.com/hontosumanhossa/status/563348947406577664

https://twitter.com/hontosumanhossa/status/563349295093391360

https://twitter.com/hontosumanhossa/status/563349880031027200

 

5K: 

5K now gatlings into 6P

 

c.S:

Hitbox and hurtbox extended veritcally

 

Dust:

Hitbox extended forward

 

2S:

Proration removed (used to be 90)

 

2H:

Hitbox extended forward

 

j.K:

Hitbox and hurtbox extended vertically

 

j.S:

Hitbox extended vertically

 

j.H:

Hitbox and hurtbox extended vertically

Cancel window extended

 

Throw:

Throw range increased

 

DAA:

Hitbox extended forward

 

[4]6S:

Now has infinite range

Lower region of the hitbox is larger

 

[4]6H:

Moves slower

Lower region of the hitbox is larger

 

[2]8S:

Opponent floats higher when the first hit hits (? not so sure about this one)

 

236H (during rekkas):

Made it harder for a larger distance to be established between Leo and his opponent (? not so sure about this too)

 

214S (during rekkas):

Added throw invul

 

Stance D (b.D):

Damage changed from 60 to 90

Can now be YRCed, but only at the beginning

 

214S (during stance):

Rolling time on counter hit reduced

Cannot be teched (not sure if on counter hit or regular hit)

 

Stance cancel:

Reduced to 12f from 17f

 

j.236H:

Cannot be burst on hit

Advantage on hit changed from +2 to +3

 

632146H:

Made it easier for all hits to hit until the end (??? this one I'm really not sure about, I think it's saying the opponent doesn't pop out of weapon x as easily but I'm not sure)

 

Instant Kill:

Invul frames reduced (it used to be all the way through recovery lol)

 

Forward Dash:

Distance increased

 

Midair hitstun animation:

Hurtbox larger for one part of the animation

 

[greatfernman]

translated from: https://twitter.com/fino_077/status/563643035234217985

all of him is strong, i think he's top tier. and nobody knows the matchup so he feels way too strong. S fireball and S DP are too strong, if they were reverted to how they were before i think that would be good adjustments

 

don't know why S DP is strong, I tweeted at fino, awaiting his reply

[Maho]

Maybe they just don't saw that stance mixup isn't as strong as it seems once you start to do other things than blocking, I also wonder about the DP comment as it was compared to reload bentengari, and it wasn't really a godlike DP as far as I remember. 

For the fireball being back to not going fullscreen, I would be ok if it has less recovery, it feels too long for a charge move IMO.

[Kinkuli]

Stance mixup is decent tbh. The main "problem" it has is that it's RPS. You can't really FORCE your opponent to respect it without conditioning them. 

 

Other than that, i hope they keep the changes they made or at least not revert all of them. I think the S boom changes are fair tbh. Like Maho said it has a lot of recovery for a charge move so it being better would make sense. Can't comment on S DP but maybe it works out great as an AA and maybe as a way to disrespect pressure with holes. Might also lead to dmg and oki on CH? Who knows. Vids of loke would be awesome but probably not happening. Need to wait for official release ;_;.

[Maho]

Actually reading you made me remember how Bentengari worked and I might understand what they meant comparing it with the new S flaskick. Bentengari used to trade a lot, and when it was with a move that didn't have too much hitstun you could combo out of it as it launched the opponent high enough, so maybe we get the same thing and so can combo into j236H from a trade?

[greatfernman]

yeah fino replied, he said you can combo off S DP trade

[R. Mika]

What's a good followup to a successful counter? I mostly just go for a 236HS or projectile Overdrive, but those don't really combo into anything

[Maho]

There's a post in the combo thread with midscreen combos after a bt.D.

[Dime_x]

I havent been keeping up because there is no scene out here anymore. But [4]6S was already crazy good being 2 hits and hitting as high up as it did (and the yrc it had was just bonkers)

Now it goes full screen? Jeez thats a super buff. Did its recovery get lengthened or something to compensate?

-edit

Holy cow they improved his stance transition by 5 frames..jeez. Incredibuffs. Me likey.

[TD]

Leo got a lot of stuff that looks amazing alone and harmonious together. Claims of top tierdom, while way too early, don't sound unlikely.

[greatfernman]

Not stance transition. Only stance cancel.

[C4IQ]

Hi All

This is my 1st Guilty Gear Game.

I've been starting to upload my matches to gauge my progress more then anything.

So looking to get feedback on my play and what i should and shouldn't do in certain match ups.

ill leave one link in these post.

I upload 2 videos a week so if you do enjoy Leo it maybe worth a sub

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl2s5pzfRM8

[Mal]

Maybe we need a critique thread :o
C4lQ, judging by the three matches I watched, here are my 2 cents - 

You kinda relied too much on your opponent not knowing that 5H > 236H is throwable, and that 5H > Rekka1 puts Leo at a disadvantage.
I'm starting to use 5K cS 6K more instead of stuff ending in 5H.  6K is +4 and you can combo rekkas on standing, or confirm into a big combo when they're crouching easily. But of course, try to vary the blockstrings.
You also lost quite a few combo opportunities because instead of IAD jK jH you used jK jS or jP jS, I think.

And practice those midscreen b.D combos, they're worth it

[DarkZero197]

So I got a message on PSN from like last week about my leo being good and I don't play on my PS3 often so I rarely check messages

It was a surprise from a May player I beat

But anyway, I need to know exactly what the frame data is on rekka 12 and 214HS on block

And does the advantage change in the corner when you do rekka12 because you stay in the corner?

[TD]

We have a wiki with all the data you seek...

[greatfernman]

Wiki data is probably wrong on the stance normals frame data if it's still following kedakos data. The 4gamer data had 1 less frame in recovery.

Also kedako calculated stance s wrong anyway, according to his data it should be -2 not +2. But it's -1 cause 1 less recovery.

Also what do you mean 214H on block. Like on stagger? Iirc its +3 if the opponent mashes out fast enough (lvl2 and above)

Oh yeah another thing about Leo frame data, 4gamers new section with all the dash values etc listed Leo jump startup as 5f not 4f

[C4IQ]

Maybe we need a critique thread :o

C4lQ, judging by the three matches I watched, here are my 2 cents -

You kinda relied too much on your opponent not knowing that 5H > 236H is throwable, and that 5H > Rekka1 puts Leo at a disadvantage.

I'm starting to use 5K cS 6K more instead of stuff ending in 5H. 6K is +4 and you can combo rekkas on standing, or confirm into a big combo when they're crouching easily. But of course, try to vary the blockstrings.

You also lost quite a few combo opportunities because instead of IAD jK jH you used jK jS or jP jS, I think.

And practice those midscreen b.D combos, they're worth it

Thanks man. Yeah a critique would be a pretty good idea.

Also alot of the stuff you mentioned Iam doing now. (my uploads are always gonna be a couple weeks behind)

I have a good bs.D rc combo that does more damage then the overdrive confirm. But with the change counter rc propertys dunno if I'll be able to do it in the future [emoji24]

[zankoku]

Wiki data is probably wrong on the stance normals frame data if it's still following kedakos data. The 4gamer data had 1 less frame in recovery.

Also kedako calculated stance s wrong anyway, according to his data it should be -2 not +2. But it's -1 cause 1 less recovery.

Also what do you mean 214H on block. Like on stagger? Iirc its +3 if the opponent mashes out fast enough (lvl2 and above)

Oh yeah another thing about Leo frame data, 4gamers new section with all the dash values etc listed Leo jump startup as 5f not 4f

Thanks for noting that, I've updated frames based on what's listed in 4gamer.

[greatfernman]

loketest 2 change list

 

6P recovery from 10 to 13f

S sonic boom no longer infinite range, instead range increased a little :c

S DP first hit knockback back to how it used to be

counter damage back down to 60

[O.Lint]

loketest 2 change list

 

6P recovery from 10 to 13f

S sonic boom no longer infinite range, instead range increased a little :c

S DP first hit knockback back to how it used to be

counter damage back down to 60

 

Awww, I was getting hype for fullscreen S fireball and Combz on S flashkick.

[Maho]

I'm pretty disappointed to be honest, I kinda expected S flashkick to be reverted back to its useless 1.0 status because it looked strong, but I hoped they kept the others changes in, bt.D damage reverted is bad, it was something to discourage delay mash 1P on stance mixups and it's gone, and we even get a nerf on 6P :/

[C4IQ]

I was kinda looking forward to full screen S sonic boom being full screen. altho I know that would be a very strong tool and make a big difference to some of Leo bar match ups. Bt.d is a bummer but if they keep counter Red rc it that will be fine as it leads to alot of damage or burst bait set ups.

[zankoku]

Are there any additional "secret" changes to get this time around? I'm gonna want to hear what the new range is like before I make a call on S Sonic Boom. I'm gonna have to assume that nerfed 6P recovery is to go with the 5K 6P gatling still being a thing in loketests.

[Maho]

Yeah I made the link between the 6P recovery nerf and the new chain, but it's pretty sad and will hurt in some matchups, against characters like Elphelt or Sol that can delay their jump in with Bridal or Kudakero, AA 6P will be more risky.

[Kinkuli]

yup yup. I don't really see why one would NERF 6P. It already loses to deep jump-ins badly. On S DP change being reverted is ok i guess? If the move was stupid then yeah sure, but it has very little uses so they should do something to it TBH. 

 

I am most sad about S boom change. I hope the new improved range is almost fullscreen or in that ballpark. Infinite range would have made it a really good neutral tool imo and leo desperately needs one imo. 

 

Eager to see the new throw range too. Maybe it will make him more scary close up instead of just using FD and be done with him.

 

BT.D should probably have stayed buffed. If it was too good then i suppose they could have made it 75 dmg or something? I feel the risk/reward on using the BT.D just isn't there since people can deal with stance mixup in variety of ways but leo has to make hard reads to deal with them. 

 

But yeah stealth buffs/nerfs could be inbound. Will have to sit tight and see what goes down. I am still hopeful that they'll make leo a good contender. I like really like his visual design and how he plays but he has glaring weaknesses for a close range char.