[Xrd] Leo Whitefang General Discussion

[Maho]

S flashkick should just be full invuln untill active frames so it can be used as a reversal, you would trade H flashkick knockdown for a faster startup.

[Maho]

So in the general news thread, Mynus told me Zidane had an offensive OS for Leo stance mixup, I asked him on twitter (here's the conversation) and worked on it a bit.

 

So after some tests, I do bt.K~P~S~K+H, you have to do this quite fast like a plink, on hit it should do bt.K > P > K, and if the first bt.K whiffs, it will do bt.S > H to punish a backdash attempt.

Now lets look at the frame data, bt.K has 7f of recovery and bt.S has 6f of startup, so that's 13f total, assuming we hit meaty with bt.K on any of the 3 actives frames, we should punish 16f and more backdashes (outside of Slayer's of course), but it's pretty hard to do honestly.

We can do it on two characters after j236H, Sin will get hit airborne for a knockdown, and Potemkin will get hit on the ground but we'll be too far to combo without RC (also backwards megafist beat this OS).

So depending on the timing of our bt.K and the opponent backdash we will get bt.S to hit either airborne or on the ground like last case with Potemkin, the input I posted above is good when you hit airborne as it grants you a knockdown, not so much on the ground as you'll too far to combo without Rcing the bt.H.

Now there are others inputs that are better if you hit on the ground, but they'll be techable if it hits airbone unless you confirm into RC and air combo.

- bt.K~P~S~S~236S : will do K P S 236S on block and K whiff > S > 236S if backdashed, pretty hard to do right.

- bt.K~P~K~S~236 : will do K P S 236S on block and K whiff > K > S 236S if backdashed, against some characters bt.K doesn't have enough range to punish a backdash, also less active frames than bt.S makes it hard to punish the only recovery frame of Pot's backdash, but it has 1f faster startup than bt.S so it can help sometimes.

[Kikuichimonji]

Wiki data is probably wrong on the stance normals frame data if it's still following kedakos data. The 4gamer data had 1 less frame in recovery.

Also kedako calculated stance s wrong anyway, according to his data it should be -2 not +2. But it's -1 cause 1 less recovery.

Also what do you mean 214H on block. Like on stagger? Iirc its +3 if the opponent mashes out fast enough (lvl2 and above)

Oh yeah another thing about Leo frame data, 4gamers new section with all the dash values etc listed Leo jump startup as 5f not 4f

I'm pretty sure that bt.S is at least +1 on block. I managed to set up a situation where bt.S > bt.K stopped Leo from jumping after bt.S a while back. That only makes sense if bt.S is at least even on block. I think the special hitstop on the move somehow makes calculating the frame advantage with the normal method incorrect.

[greatfernman]

new S sonic boom range is about the same as rensengeki

[MasterXDrake]

S sonic boom should have been full screen damn it:(

[Kikuichimonji]

Okay so bt.S > bt.K seems to have a 6 frame gap. After blocked bt.S, Slayer's 2K trades consistently with the fastest followup bt.K I could execute. This supports the calculation that bt.S is -1 on block, and not +2 as was posted at first.

[greatfernman]

i mean it wasn't really a calculation. it was the frame data that the official wiki gave.

[ThunderDramon]

Picked up Xrd while it was on sale and having a few problems as Leo that I dunno how to tackle;

-some 2p's don't hit parry (faced a mashy Chipp and every time it didn't hit), is it just him or is that an actual thing to keep in mind or I'm hallucinating?

-randomly getting thrown during rekkas

 

any ideas? Kinda my first GG game I wanna get into more than base level.

[Kikuichimonji]

Picked up Xrd while it was on sale and having a few problems as Leo that I dunno how to tackle;

-some 2p's don't hit parry (faced a mashy Chipp and every time it didn't hit), is it just him or is that an actual thing to keep in mind or I'm hallucinating?

Do you mean Leo's bt.D, the counter in stance? If so, yes it beats 2P, you just needed to do the counter earlier. If he's doing instant block on second rekka and hitting 2P, that is a legitimate punish. You would have to do third rekka instead of counter to punish, but the third rekka is unsafe.

-randomly getting thrown during rekkas

Throwing you between rekkas or punishing the second rekka with Instant Block > throw is a legitimate way to punish Leo's rekkas. There is no way to stop this exactly, although if you stop at the first rekka and immediately 5P, if they predicted a second rekka you'll probably counter-hit them out of their HS and you can confirm into a combo.

 

Really, I recommend staying away from second and third rekkas as pressure options. They're there and they can work, but normally it's better to just stop at first rekka and either try to 5P into more pressure, or just backdash after first rekka and reset to neutral.

[zankoku]

Or if you're feeling like rolling dice, rekka1 into crouching blitzshield!

(don't do that)

[TD]

Is there ANY point in doing Leo's fs-p and hs-p guard points?

[RentalBlackout]

Is there ANY point in doing Leo's fs-p and hs-p guard points?

I think it has its uses, though only in very few situations. Purely theory-crafting here, say you were trying to footsie with f. S/5HS against Slayer, but you whiff. If you know that he's gonna Mappa in, you can guardpoint it and punish with 2HS I suppose. Never actually tried it myself, but maybe that's one situation.

 

In some match ups I see no use for it however, and even in said match ups where there are uses, it seems very limited to hard reads.

[C4IQ]

Is there ANY point in doing Leo's fs-p and hs-p guard points?

I would say yes.

In certain matches it can be quite usefull. For example reacting to rams swords summon/attack with fs-p guard (at full screen leaves you in a situation that can lead to a surprising momentum shift. (from full screen of course) same goes for some situations with ELP grenades but knowing to escape or hold your ground is the difficulty of this. It's never really a go to thing to use guard.

I find its a amazing burst bait that leads to monster damage if times right.

(Absorb the burst with the guard then 6H to punished if time we'll you get the ground bounce and can follow up with 6, 5K, 5S etc).

Draw backs are that it want gaurd low attacks but you can yrc, which leads to guessing games for the opponent.

[Mal]

Yeah, I've been using it mostly in footsies (rarely) in some matchups, using the following OS's - 

fS HS P - looking for fS (CH) into 5HS... if you whiff the fS, the guard point will come out. If you get a hit then you'll do fS 5HS.
It's risky and not as useful as it looks, imo. If Leo could cancel the guard point earlier or maybe YRC out of it, then it'd be great.

fS 236S+P or 236HS+P - same principle as above

 

When you do block their poke its usually very rewarding, though. For example, if Ky tries to fS (236K OS) after your whiffed fS, you will block his fS and get a counter with 2HS, at the right distance (~210dmg followup combo).

[Mal]

Draw backs are that it want gaurd low attacks but you can yrc, which leads to guessing games for the opponent.

 

I don't think you can YRC it, it's always purple RC, sadly, iirc. They should add a YRC for it early, then it would be much more useful.

[C4IQ]

I don't think you can YRC it, it's always purple RC, sadly, iirc. They should add a YRC for it early, then it would be much more useful.

Sorry your totally right you can only prc. My bad.lol

[bigli]

You can YRC the startup of the following 5H/6H/2H if you want to mixup into lows/throws/etc though.

[Kikuichimonji]

If someone is trying to punish 5H by Instant Blocking it and doing a fast move, you can use the guard point to stay safe. It also is useful in case someone jumps over your 5S or 5H. I think it is a really big deal in the Slayer matchup because he can't whiff punish you with K Dandy > Pilebunker or Crosswise Heel.

Here's an example combo for using the guard point to punish a burst on 5H:

http://youtu.be/vKsV8EqEV9g

[Murray]

Not sure where I should put this, but Leo forum seems appropriate,

Is there a good analogue for testing combos/tech on Leo? I'm not (yet) crazy enough to pay $8 for a training dummy

[C4IQ]

As I don't feel leo oki is 100% legit. I've been working on a safe jump. Wondering what is the quick reversal? I have one against sol dp. I will try uploading this tomorrow if there is nothing faster then sols dp.

[Maho]

Fastest reversal in the game is Elphelt's judge better half, but she gets up a little slower than Sol, so you have to delay your timing a bit. Actually, that's the hard thing about safe jumps in GG, you have to time it depending on the opponent character wake-up timing, which varies quite a bit from one to another.

[Cross]

Damn so it seems like the video of Kazunoko playing Leo was deleted from twitch's archives. Anyone happen to save it?

[C4IQ]

Fastest reversal in the game is Elphelt's judge better half, but she gets up a little slower than Sol, so you have to delay your timing a bit. Actually, that's the hard thing about safe jumps in GG, you have to time it depending on the opponent character wake-up timing, which varies quite a bit from one to another.

Yeah also front and back knock down also have different timing for the most part even if the jump in doesn't hit you still get the block. The way the set up works does leave room for adjustmemt as you have to cancel dash animation.

[HK_Solenerro]

Hey does anyone know some good pressure strings with Leo that can rack up R.I.S.C. quickly on block. I'm just curious to see what other people might come up with I tried

5P > 5K (2K) > 2S

5P > 5K (2K) > 5S > 236S (for a possible tech trap)

2P > 2K > 5S > 6H  (for guard point)

but I think there are better ones out there and also include BT pressure strings if you know some.

Thanks In Advance

[batts]

Hey people

How do you deal with a rush down in the corner sol?

How do you deal in the air his 5k?