4r5

Yes, before the 11th frame, Johnny's dash is only jump-cancelable. After that, it's all free game. I've been trying to get an OD (or anything else) out sooner then the 11th frame, by doing the same thing that Slayer does to 'special-cancel' his 5K. I've tried 632147896HS, 6321476HS, and 6321486HS but all result in jump-canceling the dash. The only one I've been able to get to work is 6321469HS and the 9 and HS need to absolutely be simultaneous. Or, atleast that's what I remember the 9 and HS having to be, months ago when I was trying to accomplish this. I only got it twice back then, so maybe my memory is fuzzy.

I also get the same results when I do the 360 OD during Jo's forward dash, which has no hitstop. I just mention 6HS cause it's easier to test. I also agree that the hitstop might of spoiled the results. but what's wrong with the record function?

214s

I think you might of missed my point. Or maybe I missed your's? I do Johnny's OD as 632147896HS I get it, no problem. I don't jump because there's jump startup and I'm canceling it before the startup completes. I record it into memory. Now I do Johnny's 6HS and hit playback, i get a super jump backwards. If there was jumpstart (or jumpstartup +1) I should still be getting my OD instead of a backwards super jump. So I'm thinking there is less, or no, jump startup when you are canceling into a jump. Except for maybe that 1 frame check for inertia. Which is why something like K>Mappa's up and button press feel like they have to be at the exact same time compared to when you just do a standalone tkMappa.

RO's 6P and JO's 5HS will trade if they're both done at the same time. Though, RO's 6P out ranges JO's 5HS, but since you say JO's 5HS will beat RO's 6P, I can only assume you are referring to situations in which both moves could hit. And if that is the case, then JO has plenty of other moves that will simple beat out RO's 6P in the startup. But if you are giving room for one person to act before the other, then you introduce a hole lot of ifs, thens, and buts. Saying such-and-such move(s) beats out such-and-such other move(s) is as hollow as me going in to every Vs Sol thread and saying, "VV beats everything." Without any context, the statement is meaningless. BTW JO 6HS beats RO 6P edit: or do you do this all over the matchup threads to instigate discussion? ;(

well, when I record myself doing Johnny's overdrive as a 360, from a standing position, then play it back during Johnny's forward dash, I get a sj.HS instead of an OD. so that lead me to believe that there must not be any jump startup when canceling into jumps. but maybe it was too quick of me to assume the same thing for everything else? But when I stopped accounting for jump startup during stuff like Slayer's 5K>Mappa and Dizzy's 2D>IceSpike I started to become a lot more consistent with them.

I thought I just did? I sit around and counter-poke and punish unsafe moves. Literally, that is all I've ever done against every May I've ever fought, from XX to AC. But that strategy was born from my experience against pre-AC Mays. Maybe it still works, maybe it doesn't. I'm pretty sure that just the inclusion of FB-Dolphins, alone, makes the old strategy obsolete. But I have zero creditable AC-May experience, so I can't really say. TJ would be the Johnny to talk to. I think he plays with Nate regularly and I assume Nate's May has only gotten better in AC.

3K beats Johnny's 5HS. Just don't whiff it.

yeah, it's hilarious

no

Sorry, not going to try and comment. I may know the ArcLord matchup, but I don't know the May matchup. Eh whatever, I'll try. I do the same thing to May, what you say to do to Johnny, counter-poke. Sit around, be patient, and let 'em kill themselves. I originally I didn't want to comment, because if they are just killing themselves, instead of me killing them, then they clearly aren't doing all that can be done. And if they aren't doing everything they can, then I can't really know the matchup. You also say to let them kill themselves on you, so maybe the Johnny's you've fought aren't doing all they can, also. But yeah, didn't want to say anything since I don't fight many May's often, if at all. Maybe it's 5:5 for a reason; 'cause it's some sort of Tekken-ish counter-poke fest. First person to press a button loses.

66 if you want to get fancy 6FRC6

Ever seen Saget's (CvS2) crouching fierce? Or Baiken use her SWEEP as anti-air?

I've picked up 6321473 from Gwrwgwy Blood.

if you get a coin, press HS latter if you get some sort of j.HS, press it sooner remember to let Johnny jump before pressing HS if you're trying to tkEnsenga off a JCable move, remember there is no jump startup when canceling into a jump

oh, forgot to tell you to combo in to a HMF3 off of a non-CH 2D RO 2D(1)>MC3, 2K-etc AB 2D(1)>MC3, K-etc 2D(1)>MC3, 2K-etc 2D(1)>MC3, c.S-etc KY 2D(1)>MC3, c.S-etc DI 2D(1)>MC3, K-etc 2D(1)>MC3, c.S-etc 2D(1)>MC3, 2D-etc they're also useful, on the other chars, to give you the spacing to setup diffrent followup combos

After a HMF3, you pretty much get whatever you want. Coin, iad.K-S-D>Enkasu dash, K(ji)-HS>DBT>DB(frc), etc DBT(ji)>DB(frc), etc Coin, iad.K-S, land, jump, etc MSJH, etc Coin, MSJH, etc/Mist 6HS>tkKJ(frc), K-D, land, jump, etc Coin, MMF2, etc etc, etc Of course there's alot of spacing issues to take in to account. Anyone here played JO in Slash? If you did, you may see the spacing and instinctively try to do your old combos. Which for the most part, still work but are just harder to do. And don't seem to do as much damage as they did in Slash, which makes me question the coin/tension investment. Especially since Johnny's AC combos don't have as many dashes and airdashes, as his pre-AC combos, which hurt his tension gain. Anyways, if you're still going to do the Lv3 MF writeup I'll give you a head startup. After a MMF3, you pretty much get the same thing you got from a Slash-JO's MMF2. Which is basicly: Coin, etc dash, K/c.S/f.S/HS or whatever else you can get to connect, etc MSJH, etc And all these went in to pre-AC DB combos, but since DB isn't the same anymore, you're going to have to figure out the new followups. I just settle for a combo that nets me a Lv2 + a Mist setup. The combo usually involves a JH or an Coin,iad.etc. After a LMF3, you only get an OTG, which you should probably use on a Coin. If you RC the last hit, then you get the same followups as Slash-JO's LMF2, which is pretty much the same as I've listed above. And a random freebie I remember doing once: LMF3>RC, 6HS>Coin, f.S>HMF2, combo Don't remember the character I did it on, so there maybe some stipulations. Lv3's tend to rape the guard guage. Making the worth of big followup combos kinda unreasonable. Which is why I try to keep followups brief. If you intend to explore beyond the usual Coin+Knockdown combos, then you should look in to: HS>DBT>DB(frc) - 2 frame link HS>KJT>KJ(frc) - 1 frame link the Transport FRC's - shrug goodluck, happy comboing

Are you saying Dizzy's 6P doesn't have as much UpperBodyInv frames then the framedata lists? Or are you saying the UpperBodyInv frames are latter in the move? And are you talking about ground StunEdge or air StunEdge? And have you double checked if you can 6P a StunEdge? 'Cause right now, I'm in training mode, and it doesn't seem like Dizzy can 6P through a ground SE. And 6Ping through air SE's suggest that the framedata is correct, in at least here inv starting as soon as the move starts. The times when you did 6P a ground SE, are you sure you weren't just so close to Ky that the SE appeared behind Dizzy?

I like to do my own work. But if you wanna do it for other people, don't let me stop you.

Frame data sounds right to me. Dizzy's 6P isn't bad because of a lack of UpperBodyInv frames. It's bad because it lacks the AboveKneeInv frames that everyone else's 6P has.

You can followup MMF3's with a dash K(ji)-HS>DBT>DB(frc),etc and do old style DB combos. you got to hit it pretty close though. You can also do Coin,HMF2,etc but again, have to be pretty close. If you're far away, you can do a dash,f.S>JH, then proceed to do the old JI'ed DB combos. Haven't really fooled around with Lv3 MF's too much. Pretty low on my priority list, at the moment. I've been trying to break my old Slash habit of building up to Lv3. I bet there's a good deal of character-specifics, not to mention the spacing issues. Also, you should hit confirm into your MF's, if you don't want to lose your levels to counter hits.

first, many of them are links, not gatlings. the trick is to practice.

They got a bit more range then your normals. They all knockdown on CH. HMF1 is about the only one that's useful at lv1. It actually recovers faster then its higher level versions. So it has some uses as a poke. It's also your only standing move with that kind of coverage. You can combo off of it too, if you're close enough to the corner. CH HMF1 can also setup a Mist, or it did pre-AC, haven't done it in AC. And if it still safely setups up a Mist, in AC, I'm not sure RC'ing a Lv1 MF is worth it anymore, with the nerfs to DB and JH. I guess I'll have to make a note to look into that latter. The other two are just too slow, at lv1, to really make use of them. If you have the time to get out a MMF1 or a LMF1, you probably also had the time to do something better. MMF1 and LMF2 have some purpose in very, very, specific situations, or just stupid gimmicks. Like counter poking Axl's 5P. Or just randomly ending your blockstrings with them to randomly get free hits. They're nothing extraordinary. They don't have any weird quirk that can be exploited for some sort of awesome setup. It's not like any of them hit overhead, for you to create a ghetto guessing game. What you see is really what you get.

Yeah it works on Slayer, I must of skipped over him when I was doing those. Yeah, I plan to get around to other variations next week. Or maybe in 3 weeks. I think my next two weekends will be occupied with actually playing the game.

I think I'm going to start tending this thread. It's been neglected (like everything else in this forum, lol) for too long. I'm uncomfortable working within the framework that RedBeard left behind, so I'm just going to start this from scratch. It'll be good for me, also. Since I've been behind on alot of Johnny's AC development. (Or unvelopment, as I'm finding out ) anyways, my current lmf2 notes. uncut, unedited ABA all below, done from start position LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(2nd) = 128 LMF2, (crossup), walk, c.S>j.K-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga = 134 LMF2, backdash, c.S>j.K-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga = 134 LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.K-P-S-D>Ensenga(2nd) = 127 LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.S-D>Ensenga(2nd) = 128 LMF2, backdash, c.S>j.K-P-S>dj.S-HS-D>Ensenga = 135 LMF2, backdash, c.S>j.K-S>dj.S-HS>KJ(frc), S>tj.K-S-D>Ensenga = 159, 25% LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.S-HS>KJ(frc), S>tj.K-S-D>Ensenga(2nd) = 160, 25% LMF2, walk, (crossup), HS>DBT>DB = 90, knockdown LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.K>KJ(frc), ad.K-S-D>Ensenga(1st) = 121, knockdown, 25% LMF2, backdash, c.S>j.K-S>dj.K>KJ(frc), ad.K-S-D>Ensenga(1st) = 127, knockdown, 25% LMF2, (crossup), HS>DBT>DB(frc), K-S-D>Ensenga(1st) = 130?138, knockdown, 25% LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.S-HS>KJ(frc), HS>DB = 142, knockdown, 25% LMF2, (crossup), JH>RJ = 101, knockdown, 50%, post-lv2 LMF2, (crossup), OD = 114, knockdown, 50% LMF2, (crossup), HS>OD = 130, knockdown, 50% LMF2, (crossup), JH, f.S>JH, f.S>JH>RJ = 171, knockdown, 100%, post-lv2 LMF2, (crossup), 2D(1st)... : possible *backdash possible on everything/everyone? Anji all below, done from start position LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(2) = 151 LMF2, (crossup), c.S>j.K-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(2nd) = 161 LMF2, (crossup), j.K-P-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(2) = 157 LMF2, (crossup), j.K-P-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(2nd) = 159 LMF2, (crossup), c.S>j.K-S>dj.S-HS-D>Ensenga(2nd) = 172 LMF2, (crossup), j.K-P-S>dj.S-HS>KJ(frc), S>tj.S-HS-D>Ensenga(2) = 183, 25% LMF2, (crossup), j.K-P-S>dj.K>KJ(frc), (crossup), S>Ensenga(1st) = 123, knockdown, 25% LMF2, (crossup), c.S>j.K-S>dj.S-HS>KJ(frc), HS>DB = 177, knockdown, 25% * big delayer before the KJ, the second HS, and the DB. Do too fast/let him get too high and tech possible. LMF2, (crossup), JH, 2D>Coin, OD = 154, knockdown, 75% LMF2, (crossup), JH, f.S>JH>RJ = 167, knockdown, 75%, post-lv2 LMF2, (crossup), JH, Coin, f.S... : possible Axl all below, done from start position LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(2) = 151 LMF2, (crossup), c.S>j.K-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(2nd) = 161 LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.S-HS-D>Ensenga(2) = 164 LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.S-HS>KJ(frc), S>tj.K-S-D>Ensenga(2nd) = 191, 25% LMF2, (crossup), j8.K-S>dj.S-HS>KJ(frc), S>tj.S-HS-D>Ensenga(2) = 194, 25% LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.S-HS>KJ(frc), S>tj.S-HS-D>Ensenga(2nd) = 197, 25% LMF2, (crossup), HS>DBT>DB = 108, knockdown LMF2, (crossup), j.K>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(1st) - 1hit? LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>Ensenga(1st) = ??? Baiken all below, done from start position LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(2nd) = 170 LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.S-HS-D>Ensenga(2nd) = 184 LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.S-HS>KJ(frc), S>tj.S-HS-D>Ensenga(2) = 216, 25% *delay before the first j.K LMF2, (crossup), j.S>dj.S-HS>KJ(frc), S>tj.S-HS-D>Ensenga(2) = 224, 25% *delay before the first j.S LMF2, (crossup), j.K>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(1st) = 126, knockdown LMF2, (crossup), j.S>dj.S-HS>DB = 155, knockdown Bridget all below, done from start position LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(1st) = 130, knockdown LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.S-HS-D>Ensenga(2) = 167 LMF2, (crossup), j.S>dj.S-HS-D>Ensenga(2) = 168 LMF2, (crossup), j.S>dj.S-HS>KJ(frc), S>tj.S-HS-D>Ensenga(2) = 208 *delay before the first j.S LMF2, (crossup), j.S>dj.S-HS>DB = 141, knockdown Chipp all below, done from start position LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(2nd) = 190 LMF2, (crossup), c.S>j.K-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(2nd) = 197 LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.S-HS>KJ(frc), S>tj.K-S-D>Ensenga(2) = 232 LMF2, (crossup), j.K>dj.K-P-S-D>Ensenga(1st) = 140, knockdown LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.K>KJ(frc), ad.K-S-D>Ensenga(1st) = 180, knockdown Dizzy all below, done from start position LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(2nd) = 167 LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.S-HS-D>Ensenga(2nd) = 181 LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.S-HS>KJ(frc), S>tj.S-HS-D>Ensenga(2nd) = 218 LMF2, tkEnsenga(1st) = 44, knockdown LMF2, (crossup), JH>RT = 132, knockdown, 50%, post-lv2 LMF2, (crossup), 6P... - posible LMF2, (crossup), j.K>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga - 1hit? Eddie all below, done from start position LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(2nd) = 153 LMF2, (crossup), c.S>j.K-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(2nd) = 161 LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.S-HS>KJ(frc), S>tj.S-HS-D>Ensenga(2) = 188, 25% LMF2, (crossup), c.S>j.K-S>dj.S-HS>KJ(frc), S>tj.K-S-D>Ensenga(2nd) = 190, 25% LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.P>KJ(frc), ad.K-S-D>Ensenga(1st) = 139, knockdown, 25% Faust all below, done from start position LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(2) = 145 LMF2, (crossup), j.S>Ensenga(1st) = 63, knockdown I-No all below, done from start position LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(1st) = 128, knockdown LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(2) = 151 LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.S-HS-D>Ensenga(2nd) = 166 LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.S-HS>KJ(frc), S>tj.S-HS-D>Ensenga(2nd) = 197, 25% LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.S-HS>KJ(frc), ad.K-S-D>Ensenga(1st) = 168, knockdown, 25% LMF2, (crossup), j.S>dj.S-HS>KJ(frc), HS>DB = 169, knockdown, 25% Jam all below, done from start position LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(1st) = 128, knockdown LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.S-HS-D>Ensenga(2) = 164 LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.S-HS-D>Ensenga(2nd) = 166 LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.S-HS>KJ(frc), S>tj.S-HS-D>Ensenga(2) = 194, 25% LMF2, (crossup), j.S>Ensenga(1st) = 66, knockdown LMF2, (crossup), j.P-S>dj.P-S-D>Ensenga(1st) = 113, knockdown Johnny all below, done from start position LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(2nd) = 147 LMF2, (crossup), c.S>j.K-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(2nd) = 153 LMF2, (crossup), c.S(ji)-HS>DBT>DB(frc), K-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(?) = 184 Ky all below, done from start position LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(2nd) = 148 LMF2, (crossup), c.S>j.K-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(2nd) = 154 LMF2, (crossup), c.S>j.K-P-S>dj.S-HS>KJ(frc), S>tj.S-HS-D>Ensenga(2nd) = 178 LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.K>KJ(frc), ad.K-S-D>Ensenga(1st) = 141, knockdown, 25% LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.P-P-S-D>Esenga - 1hit? May all below, done from start position LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(1st) = 128, knockdown LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(2) = 151 LMF2, (crossup), j.S>dj.S-HS>KJ(frc), S>tj.S-HS-D>Ensenga(2) = 204, 25% LMF2, (crossup), j.S>dj.S-HS>DB = 138, knockdown Millia all below, done from start position LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(1st) = 147, knockdown LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(2) = 174 LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>Ensenga(1st) = 88, knockdown LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.S-HS>KJ(frc), S>tj.S-HS-D>Esenga(2) = 224 Order-Sol all below, done from start position LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(2) = 139 LMF2, (crossup), j.K-P-S>dj.S-HS>KJ(frc), S>tj.S-HS-D>Ensenga(2nd) = 167, 25% LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>Ensenga(1st) = 70 Potemkin all below, done from start position LMF2, (crossup), c.S>j.K-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(1st) = 131 LMF2, (crossup), j.K-P-S>dj.K-P-S-D>Ensenga(1st) = 102, knockdown Robo-Ky all below, done from start position LMF2, (crossup), c.S>j.K-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(2nd) = 134 Slayer all below, done from start position LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(2) = 139 LMF2, (crossup), c.S>j.K-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(2nd) = 145 Sol all below, done from start position LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(2) = 145 Testament all below, done from start position LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(2) = 145 LMF2, (crossup), c.S>j.K-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(2nd) = 153 LMF2, (crossup), j.K>dj.K>KJ(frc), HS>DB = 128, knockdown, 25% LMF2, (crossup), j.K-P-S>dj.S-HS>KJ(frc), (crossup), HS>Ensenga(1st) = 140, knockdown, 25% LMF2, (crossup), j.K-P-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(1st) - ???, knockdown LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.K>KJ(frc), ad.K-S-D>Ensenga(1st) - ??? = 139-145~, knockdown, 25% *done these before, Testament is a bitch and haven't been able to reproduce them Venom all below, done from start position LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(2nd) = 153 LMF2, (crossup), c.S>j.K-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(1st) = 161 LMF2, (crossup), j.K-S>dj.K>KJ(frc), ad.K-S-D>Ensenga(1st) = 145, knockdown, 25% LMF2, (crossup), c.S>j.K-P-S>dj.S-HS>KJ(frc), S>tj.K-S-D>Ensenga(2nd) = 177, 25% Zappa all below, done from start position LMF2, (crossup), c.S>j.K-S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(2nd) = 153 LMF2, (crossup), j.S>dj.K-S-D>Ensenga(2) = 143 LMF2, (crossup), j.S>dj.K-S-HS-D>Ensenga(2) = 158 LMF2, (crossup), j.S>dj.K-S-HS>KJ(frc), S>tj.S-HS-D>Ensenga(2) = 188, 25% LMF2, (crossup), j.S>dj.K-S-HS>DB = 137, knockdown * Zappa like to tuck legs in I'm finding alot of stuff that I do in everyday matches just does not work from the exact start positions. it does explain a few rare occurrences, but it'll make some of the stuff i want covered difficult to present with out telling people to just go figure it out themselves. either way, more work to be done. eventually stuff will trickle their way to the first post, in some sort of presentable fashion. or maybe i'll just make a new thread