bizarro

BTW I forgot to mention that those were some nice matches (EDIT: to fatewalker) And also to zaeris, great matches. Usually when people ask for comments I always see it like "Please proofread my essay" so I have that mindset, and of course it also means pointing out spelling and grammar mistakes :p I don't mean to sound critical or anything, and I'm sure you know your own mistakes. Just wanted to get that out there in case there are any misunderstandings:eng101:

Oh my god I hate playing against baiken (playing baiken herself is fun though :p) If you're trying for a knockdown combo off a throw, use throw > dash > f.S > icespike. If you catch baiken at the right height with f.S you'll succeed with a knockdown, but otherwise it's pretty hard to time correctly all the time. You could also make use of the fact that baiken can tech to setup tech traps (eg. throw > f.S > 421), since scoring a knockdown against baiken isn't as powerful as against other characters because of her counters.

Naw, it's not the distance, (I have a recording of the match and I see that I'm standing right next to the other dude). It's just that when I press S+H at the same time, I'll usually hit S a split second before H and that makes it not an OS. I was wondering if other people do this sometimes too, or if it's just a matter of practice, or matter of button sensitivity.

BTW, I dunno if it's just me, but I got a chance to play some matches yesterday and I've been trying the forward OS throw a lot (6+S+H) and it seems like c.S comes out more often than a throw. For those of you who also use OS on forward throws, does this happen quite a bit too? Or is it all about practice? (I have a HORI 1, maybe my buttons aren't sensitive enough?)

Love this combo, except it doesn't work in reload (I'm assuming he wants to know about in #R?) But yeah the 2S > j.K > j.S > double jump > j.S > j.H/D works anywhere, near the wall or away from it.

Check out that match of Kazuki vs. Ten, take a look at 0:22, when Dizzy attempts the basic corner okizeme. It seems as if ino's wakeup VCL works against it Don't know too much about the properties of VCL, but it seems similar to testament's forward exe beast in terms of use on wakeup. ALTHOUGH, I think if Dizzy was slightly farther away after the icespike (eg. instead of throw > icespike, he did throw > 2K > f.S > icespike), the VCL would have hit the fish instead of Dizzy. I dunno I'll have to test this, but might be something useful to put in the ino matchup thread.

Serious?? That's almost broken O_O but yeah, icespike OTG is pretty easy to tech from so I guess it's not that sweet. I really wish I could contribute more to the matchup threads but my experience against the GG cast is bleh. BTW lol @ aba wakes up slower than other characters (inside joke, sorry).

Good info, I saw your post last night but had 2 finals today to study for so didn't get a chance to respond. I totally agree with using OS throw when going for a forward throw. This is something I never do and should build the habit of doing more often. For some reason when the OS airthrow was taken out of the game, I stopped doing OS altogether, no idea why. By the way, just putting it out there that Dizzy also has quite a few high/low mixups off a midscreen throw on okizeme, as well as fuzzy guard setups. I recognize that video you linked, I think its from the recent gamechariot posting (quite a few Dizzy matches). True, if Kazuki used c.S it would have gotten a counterhit, but his intent here was a throw, and with that short of a dashing distance the only way to pull out a quick throw is using 4H. Sadly, Ten saw it coming It might be true that he FD braked a tad late, but the main reason why it was slower than it could have been was because Kazuki paused for a split second after landing from j.P I think the issue here is commitment. Kazuki wanted a throw, and so he chose the optimal sequence for the highest chance of a throw succeeding. Had he done OS 6H, it would have been around 15 frames later than a 4H throw command. Or, it could have been the same speed except with a c.S as a result, but his intent was a throw not a c.S All in all, with a short distance separating the characters, I strongly believe that a short dash > FD break > 4H throw is ideal. If you want the throw, do what has a higher chance of it succeeding. I don't believe it's worth delaying your throw ~15 frames (from my estimates, about 1/4 of a second = 15 frames) just to have c.S as a safety net. An analogy could be taken from baseball: you can't steal 2nd base with 1 foot on 1st base. However, if you are about 2P distance away from your opponent, then 4H or 6H will be roughly the same speed. PS - After 2K > c.S, with +1 frame advantage and a tiny distance to cover, a quick dash > FD break > 4H throw is actually quite safe against players who spam 2P, as your FD usually comes out right about when his 2P becomes active. Also, for those of you who like dashing > throw at the opening of a match, if you begin with a wave dash (or FD dash, where you input 66 > 4+P+K > 6), it also acts as a safety against an opening f.S or whatnot. Just make sure to time it depending on the speed of the poke you will face: if it's a fast poke (eg. eddie 2S), make sure to input the first 6 (of 66) before the round begins so that your 2nd 6 starts right when the round starts, and then immediately do 4+P+K > 6, whereas if you're up against a slower poke, adjust likewise. It takes a lot of getting used to, and might not even be worth practicing :3 EDIT: Oh yeah, we've all probably seen/experienced a situation where you throw an opponent while he is in mid-animation of attacking. This is another reason why the quicker the throw, the better

A johnny I play often likes to do this: he watches for the moment I retreat to create space, then does divine travel FRC > j.H, which CH's me as I try to summon. So that's one thing to watch out for if you know the johnny is fairly solid with that FRC. Also, if he can FD dash consistently, that's another thing to watch out for, although I haven't yet experienced any johnny players capable of that.

What problem are we solving? Sure, you'll get c.S instead of 6H, but you still won't get the throw. No matter how much you practice, 6H will still be slower than 4H at that close of a range. You'll have to sacrifice quite a few frames to get that forward throw, which I'd rather not do. The faster the throw, the higher the chances of it succeeding.

Yeah I love switching H~P with K~P on okizeme, it really screws with their mind because of the timing differences, which allows for a lot of throws :D

May's 6P is dangerous in the following situation: You've just comboed May into the corner, and ended with icespike knockdown (no FRC). Then you summon 214H~(x) > IAD > j.2S. Oftentimes May will have enough time to 6P on wakeup before your j.2S meaties. Keep in mind though that I didn't experience this in a matchup, I just went to training mode and set May on 6P (by turning on auto for the punch button), then tried this oki pattern. Tried 5 times, all 5 times got CH by 6P. So not 100% certain this is the case against May players.

I originally thought of it as a joke, but after thinking a bit it actually serves a certain purpose. Take your matchup with ky for example. You tell me that he often outpokes you after your c.S with his 2P, right? If he's trained to do that often enough, you now have something to use in situations where you need to score that knockdown (eg. you have low life, you can't let him escape you since all he needs is 1 random to win, and he prefers to poke his way out of pressure so that it's hard to get that knockdown off a tick throw). Now instead of outpoking you, you imperial ray his face into a knockdown (with a possible CH 2P on you, no biggie). Or he might have blocked, in which case you've pushed him into the corner. As for any other situation, I would rather use my tension for 2H FRC > throw/pressure offense. 50% tension will give you 2 more chances at a mixup vs. 1 gamble with imperial ray.

I got it I got it! c.S > (reset) > 632146S:v:

What did you try? The 2H? Yeah, fast pokes are gonna win over 2H simply because of speed. Dizzy's 2P/K should clash with Ky's 2P though. I've seen a few videos where Dizzy tries to insert some mixups after resetting c.S, they all either clash or lose out to pokes and reversals, so as far as I'm concerned this +1 is pretty pathetic

Part of the reset option would include blocking, especially vs. characters with uppercuts. A blocked uppercut it still advantageous in most circumstances. However, do you know what is the startup of Sol's vv? (or any other upper). I guess I could check it out later, I'll post what I find. If the startup is long enough it might allow for a c.S > (reset) > 2H FRC, although I'm doubting this will work off of +1. EDIT: I just checked, 2H startup is 8 frames with frc between 8-10, whereas VV startup is 7 frames. It is still possible (but not if they IB) to c.S > (reset) > 2H FRC (8th frame) and be back in block in time for VV, but either one of two things must happen: 1) your timing is impeccable, or 2) his timing is slow by 1-3 frames BTW, Ky's uppercut is 9 frames, so this works better against him.

Curious if anyone has been able to capitalize on using the +1 from c.S as a baiting tool? Ex. dash > 2K > c.S > (reset) > 2H FRC Conceptually sound, however the +1 is not enough to guarantee 2H hitting against fast pokes like 2P. If we replace 2H with 2K, it is still dangerously close such that fast pokes can counter your 2K. 2P is fast enough to outpoke or clash with other fast pokes, however you sacrafice the 2H counterhit opportunity as a bait. Why bait? Because you could tick throw after c.S, on normal block dash > 2K > c.S puts you just out of throw range with +1. If only it were +2....2H would seem a lot more viable. So has anyone played around with the +1 frame advantage and gotten good results? EDIT: btw, 2H and 2P have a 2 frame difference in startup (8 vs. 6). Also, although 2P is listed as having the same startup as 2K, the difference in the hitbox that becomes active is probably what makes 2P a faster poke. Another option would be c.S > (reset) > dash > c.S, since c.S only takes 5 startup frames. This works best against opponents who like jumping out of baits.

Learn to slashback the coin!

Thanks, I learned something new, did not know speed difference was a result of MF level. Also remember that Johnny lands very close to Dizzy off a throw, so you have to adjust your followup combo. However, due to where he lands you are able to setup some interesting okizeme patterns that work only against Johnny.

Little known fact, the fuzzy guard actually doesn't work. I didn't realize this until I played AC but one of the main reasons why I gave up on those air spike pressure loops is that a popped bubble does not necessarily keep the opponent in fuzzy guard. All the opponent has to do is block high on your j.K, then immediately switch to low block against the bubble. Now he is crouching, and your 421S will whiff, and your opponent will get a free combo/throw.

What are the crow patterns? Or if they're already listed, do you have a link?

Ah, what I've been doing is dash > 2K, so I guess that's why a 2nd dolphin usually takes off over my poke. I'll try to remember using 5K from now on.

I'd just like to apologize to anyone I confused by what I said about FD breaking not being faster. I'm actually wrong, it is faster than just going neutral. The reason I've switched is after extensive testing doing tick throws off of 2K/2P. After poking at a close range, but not close enough to just stand and throw after the blocked 2K/2P, you must do a short dash or walk forward a few steps for the throw. I've been testing following a short dash with an FD break > 6H for a forward throw, but everytime I do it too fast I end up with a 6H instead of a throw, and therefore thought that there was a window after you start a dash where you cannot throw even if you FD break it. However, the real reason why the 6H kept coming out is because I do the FD break so fast after my dash startup that I have inputted an additional dash motion, and therefore my 6H will never be a throw because I would be dashing :V So as proof, I did the same thing except this time I used 4H as throw, and what did I get? A lightning quick short dash into throw! So in reality, FD breaking actually is faster than going neutral. Just make sure to use 4H instead of 6H after short dashes.

Against a cornered 50% tension May, icespike > 214K~P > dash > 6H is a good oki to use since the fish will eat her wakeup super instead of you. Also, if you manage to block any of May's 3Ks (IB not even needed), you will have a HUGE frame advantage to deal a devastating combo. Simply dash > 2H, which will score a counter hit. Here's a great combo: dash > 2H (CH) FRC > 2147K > j.H > (land) > dash > 421 > jump > j.H > 214K ]S[ > j.H > (land) > jump > j.S > JC > j.S > j.D I still seem to find a lot of trouble dealing with her dolphins, even if they are negative on block. It seems when I try to punish, she just does another dolphin ASAP which will counter my punish attempt. What do you do?

Another favorite opening of Johnny is to throw a coin. You can counter this by dashing forward into 2K > 2H > icespike or whatnot. As for Johnny's low capabilities, you still need to watch out for low mistfiner, although this is much easier to see vs. TK ensenga Also, for gauranteed knockdown in corner after throw, don't run, just walk forward a tiny bit and then use f.s (3-4 hits) > icespike. This is much safer than a dash after throw. Personally though, I'd rather trade that little bit of extra damage for a throw > 2147K > (land) > 421S okizeme, unless you prefer the basic icespike > 214H~P > IAD > j.2S ordeal. Some Johnny's love waking up with super, so a safe pressure string in the corner is icespike > 214K~P > dash > 6H. For dust combos, I like using: dust > (impossible dust) > j.H > 214S > (short delay) > j.H > (bubble pop) > (land) > 421 > jump > j.H > 214K ]S[ > j.H > (bubble pop) > (land) > jump > j.S > d.jump > j.S > j.H