Sahgren

Funny, you claim that Valk's c-grab doesn't mean anything since yomi can beat it, and that the fact that he can freely double overhead and switch between highs and lows in wolf mode isn't good mix up because it's "slow", then you list double overheads and a c-grab as Bang's strengths, despite Bang getting nerfed just as hard (or possibly harder) than Valk, and that his double overhead/c-grab are all just as slow/slower than Valk's in wolf in the first place. Just to be certain, are we even talking about the same game here? The Bangs are all sad that their pressure isn't as strong in CS2 for a reason. As for what you listed; you're apparently claiming that Valk's mixup isn't safe because he doesn't have oki that forces it to start. That's all fine and dandy, people bitch about BB not having true oki for a reason. That doesn't mean that once he gets in with wolf mode, he automatically going to be hit out for trying something.

Dusty, you seem to be having a grand ol' time going around proclaiming that Valk's mix up is "unsafe", but you have yet to say why exactly it's more unsafe than others. Despite frame advantages, any time a character attempts a high/low/throw mix up, there will be enough time that mashing 5A/2A will poke them out of it. Wolf mode is special in that mixing up high-low doesn't leave enough of a gap to poke back, in return for reducing Valk's defense to 0. Getting predictable will get your mix up blocked. Period. Even for Valk (it's not like it's a literal unblockable). Still, forcing the opponent to guess whether you're going to do an overhead, go low, or c-grab after every single attack without a chance to strike back isn't what could be considered a weak mix up, especially in a game like BB where nearly everything can be beaten with a good reaction time.

//Double Post I noticed that recently a number of Valks in the YT videos are starting to end combos with [W]5B > j.B > dj rather than [H]j.C in the corner. Is the superior oki-mix up of being in wolf form while they're getting up worth not regaining any wolf meter and giving the opponent a chance to potentially roll out? Also, is that viable in CS1, or do CS1 combos use up too much wolf meter to allow it to work?

Not to put down your arguments, Dusty, but I just want to provide some counterarguments. Getting hit out of predictable mix up is the standard risk of throwing out mix up in the first place; you're giving the opponent a chance to react in return for landing an attack that the opponent has fewer options to block against. Having a mix up that doesn't give the opponent a chance to respond at some point would be honestly unbalanced. Even wolf mode, which gives a true high/low/throw mix up comes with the corresponding risk of being defenseless when you're not forcing the opponent to block. The IB nerf works just as much for Valk as it does against him. While it makes Valk's crappy defense even worse, the only real nerfs to Valk frame wise were 236A and 6C, so his pressure remains strong after accounting for the IB nerf (just no 236A spam, but that was stupid to begin with). We always needed to spend meter to get out of strong pressure, I'm not all too surprised that we'll still need that for CS2. Unrelated: Valk's CS1 CA only gets 4k if you spend even more meter. I, personally, am never going to spend 100 heat on a combo that has a 0% chance of killing the opponent.

Yeah, the more videos I watch, the more it seems like Valk just has a much hard time dealing with zoners and in general characters that keep him out of his effective range now, especially since he isn't killing them by landing 2-3 combos anymore. That alone seems like it would prevent him from S tier. Still, it interests me that people don't seem to be able to agree on how strong he is. I wonder how everything will turn out as people find even more tricks, gimicks, and combos that could potentially change everything.

I've been looking at Arcadia's tier lists for CS2 and I'm kinda confused as to why one person put Valk at low-mid, and the second put him at S. Can people just not agree on how much his offense covers for his lack of defense?

This is a combo that just begs to be used to win a match.

236A > 236B is usually used since it works consistently with all starters, whereas 236B > 236A only works consistently with starters that guarantee that you're as close to the opponent as possible, such as [W]5B > j.AAA. When doing combos such as 236C/j.124B > 9D > j.A, you're not always going to be optimally spaced to allow the first j.236B to land. Do you mean 5B > [H]j.B or 5B > [W]j.B? For the first one, it can get a bit easier if you catch them a bit lower (you're level with them or slightly above them in midair) with the first j.B, since it'll cause the 5B to catch them lower to the ground, and not launch them out of j.B range. If you mean 5B > [W]j.B, you need an IAD to get close enough outside of the corner. I think Orion mentioned this earlier, but if you're going to try j.B x2 > [H]5B, try to catch with the base of the tail for the second j.B to insure that you have enough time to change to human and land the 5B.

The Thor would have to be near the beginning of the combo to allow for 150 heat, but Noel should be able to get closer, especially if a 100 p1 starter is used. If CS2 Valk of low damage high mix up can break 10k with 150 heat + 2 GB, Noel should be able to as well.

I remember that it was mentioned somewhere that CH 236C > 9D > j.B > j.A > D > 5B that you see in CS2 videos works midscreen against some characters, but I can't figure out how to get it to work. I'm trying it on Tager, and every time I land the j.B, Valk won't fall enough for j.A > D > 5B to connect. Is there some sort of trick to it, or does it just not work as I was expecting until CS2?

Always could. It actually took me longer to get down going into 6B from 5A than for 5B > 6B.

Thank you, Toasty. It feels a lot better actually knowing the numbers rather than just having to speculate, especially since they had to change Valk from top tier to mid tier.

With the combo I used, you don't have enough heat. Now experimenting to see if I can get higher with a non-RC combo with double super at the end. Edit: If there's a higher damage combo with double Sturm ender, I can't find it. They usually tech before the super ends, and the damage ends up lower than the RC combo.

In the corner with meter using a Tager dummy, I can get up to 5.7k. The combo: 2A > 2C > 236B > RC > 2C > j.214B > 2D > 236B > j.236A > j.236B > C > j.B > j.B > [W]5B > jc > j.B > 3C > j.A > D > [H]5B > Sturm for 5700. If you're looking for a more practical combos, there's a 4.3k combo in the technical discussion thread, but for just pure damage that's the highest I can figure out.

It's worth noting that Bang and Rachel have awkward falling hitboxes which force you to get used to catching the opponent as low as possible in order to follow up with 5D. Generally you want that anyways for making her BnBs work consistently, but it might not be the best when just getting used to 22C > 66C. If you want to just get used to getting the dash to come out then hitting 66C, try it on Tager first, since his giant hitbox is amazingly forgiving in that regard.

Ivy took it. Good showing by Guardian, though, it was down to the wire.

It still works if you get a running start at least (video proof). I haven't seen people do it from a stand still in the videos, so we'll have to wait until someone tries it.

Things I can tell off of a quick watch: 1) Get used to using 5B and 5C to poke and punish unsafe moves. Both CH 5B and CH 5C lead into 3C, which nets a decent combo for 3k+ damage. 2) Learn to judge how far away you are from the corner. The SR > 66C link is braindead easy when you're in the corner and don't need to dash, so try switching to that when you think you're close enough. Simple combos are: 3C > 22BC > 66C > 5D > d.2D > SR > 66C > j.D > d.6D > d.6B > d.5B > d.5C > BT for 4.4k and good heat gain, and 5D/2D > d.6A > d.6C > d.6D > d.2D > SR > 66C > j.D > d.5D > d.6B > d.5B > d.5C > BT for 3.8k(?). You can omit the d.6A if you can hitconfirm a CH 5D/2D, increasing the damage to ~4.4k 3) Not from that video specifically, but please remember that all of Noels drive moves have same move proration, and that even the D are separated into starters and follow up for the proration system. So 5D has same move proration with 5D, but d.5D counts as something entirely different. That means that 5D > d.6A > d.6C > 214A > 2B > 6C > 5D > etc. won't work because of same move proration. Instead follow up the 6C with j.D > d.6D > etc. so you'll be able to complete the combo. 4) Optic Barrel is useful for zoning purposes, but it's neutral on block with a 30 frame start up. Don't get predictable when you throw it out, especially at close range, since you're running the risk of having more skilled players poke you out of it without putting yourself in a situation to gain very much if it lands.

So you actually do more damage if you connect all the j.As in a set than if you don't, since the extra 2 j.As add damage without proration? I'll have to keep that in mind.

Wanted a fighter, BB was aesthetically pleasing to watch; nothing else out at the time was. 50% off sale at Gamestop letting me get it for $15 helped a bit too.

Valkenhayn was a butler for Clavis, Rahel's father, and now serves her after Clavis passed away. I remember hearing somewhere that he served Clavis out of guilt of some crime he committed before, but I need to remember where I read that from to double check.

Huh, didn't know that. Always had it in my head that Bang was universally unpopular. Still, my point stands that if a character were truly broken we'd see more of them. As it is, it seems like a fairly balanced mix, with characters being more evenly represented than before (with more difficult/technical characters like Carl being underrepresented). To me, there isn't anyone clearly ahead of the pack currently, so we should wait and see how everything develops.

I'm not comparing Hazama to Noel, I'm comparing the complaining people are doing to how they were acting about a different character earlier. It looks pretty damn similar from my point of view. And I somehow doubt popularity is all that big a concern. Not many people liked Bang as a character, and he was all over the place because he got people wins. I doubt that people will stop playing top tier characters because they don't aesthetically like them.

It really seems too early to decide whether Hazama is broken or not, it's been all of 2 months for people to work things out. It's like how everybody was screaming about Noel dealing 4k off of unsafe starters when this started, and yet there aren't very many Noels besides R-1 in the videos. Let's give it time, people have yet to figure out everyone in the cast. P.S. Isn't this the video discussion thread? Or did I accidentally walk into the "Let's Bitch About Characters We Don't Like To Face" thread again?

If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.