cadacus_ater

Discuss the Jin vs Bullet matchup here. Bullet and Jin perspectives welcome!

Discuss the Jin vs Bang matchup here. Bang and Jin perspectives welcome!

Discuss the Jin vs Azrael matchup here. Azrael and Jin perspectives welcome!

Discuss the Jin vs Arakune matchup here. Arakune and Jin perspectives welcome!

Discuss the Jin vs Amane matchup here. Amane and Jin perspectives welcome!

There really isn't much you can do after a blocked 2D if it's at near max or max range unless you want to do a gimmicky 214D to pursue them at your own risk (not very good unless you are desperate or rarely when playing back dash heavy characters like Nu, Mu and Lambda). Any closer (around the middle of the ice blade that appears) than that and you can try dashing 5C to catch them sometimes or just use 5B if you catch them on the inside of the ice blade to try pulling them closer to you, but at that distance, you could get mashed out by some characters (Hakumen comes to mind). Jin's pressure isn't super solid compared to rushdown characters. He relies on his range, gimmicks and frame traps almost as much as his basic pressure game. Delay certain moves to catch the opponent's attempt to counter and mix things up with your dash in pressure and pressure strings a bit, such as omitting a move from your string, extending one with a projectile or an EX move if you can afford it, etc. You may want to watch some videos of Jin in action to get a better feel for it if you are having trouble with it, especially matchups against Lambda, Mu and Nu if you have trouble with them.

Here you go. It is much easier to do on tall characters like Relius, Azrael and Tager and I think it's impossible on characters like Kokonoe: FC 22C > 66 5C > j.2C > j.C > 66 5C > j.2C > j.C > 5C > 2C > 6C > 2D > 66 5C > 2C > j.C > j.2C > j.C > j.214C (4305/31)

j.C > j.2C loops, more specifically the FC 22C > [66 5C > j.2C > j.C]x2 loop, are REALLY hard in CPEX. I don't think FC > stuff > j.2C > j.C > j.2C > j.C on standing opponents even works anymore except perhaps on Tager, but that may not let you combo after it when you land. If you mean FC 22C > [66 5C > j.2C > j.C]x2, you have to delay the j.2C a slight bit, using it slightly before your jump's apex, then do j.C as soon as you get close enough to hit them with it. It is very hard to do in CPEX with the hitstun nerfs to j.2C and j.C. It is also character specific, and I wouldn't try it on anyone shorter than Kagura (even he is very hard to do it on). If you meant a different combo, please give me an example if possible.

Depends on what combos you mean. If you are referring to ones that involve his aerial hitbox a lot, that might be the problem. His aerial hitbox is short compared to his body on screen. If the video isn't using the combos on Tager, you probably don't have his character specific spacing and timing down right. If you can give some combo examples, I'll try to help you further.

Initial Notes and Match StartI'm not very good at analyzing this character, so this advice isn't completely fleshed out and Frame Advantage will have nothing for now. I'll try to put down what I can to get things started though. Taokaka is a fast, high mobility fighter with extremely good air control. Her damage output is below average and her health is the lowest in the game, making it somewhat easier to outlast her, but you may need to rethink how you handle neutral if you want to win. Taokaka does not have as many mixup options as she did in previous iterations of the game, now with only one overhead to speak of, but she still has the ability to rapidly cross you up with her mobility and play keep away with ease. You may not find very many good Tao players, as she has a relatively high learning curve, but a good Taokaka is worthy of respect. At match start, you will probably want to either stand in place while guarding to see what she does or maybe dash forward, then stop your momentum with a Barrier block. The key to winning against Taokaka is a solid ground game; aerial combat is very difficult against her, even jump ins for high attacks are risky with her drive options and her 6A anti-air. NeutralFull Screen Her projectiles are, sadly, better than your own in CPEX overall. She can confirm off of them more easily than you can. I would use ice swords sparingly, they won't help you very much at all. She can either play keep away at this distance if she has a life lead or try to confuse you with how she will approach. Watch her carefully and look for opportunities to counter attack from the ground. If she uses a drive dash into you while you are in the air, most of the time she will beat whatever normal you throw at her unless you have the good fortune of preempting her with j.C. Long to Mid-Range This range feels slightly in Taokaka's favor. Be careful of zoning too often with 5C; if she set herself up correctly, she can counter you while you recover. Her 2B low can cover a lot of ground and shrinks her hitbox substantially for low profiling, but has a lot of recovery and at the correct range can be punished if you IB it. Her 5C, 2C and 6C normals can be charged to make them safer, but if you are at the right range, you can hit her while she charges with 5C or perhaps 2D or ice sword. A good Tao may not let you do that very often however, and could release early to frame trap you. The safest option is just blocking them. Be careful of her cross-ups. Sometimes they can be punished, but you'll need some experience to know when it's safe to do so. Be careful of her slender hitbox. 5C can push her out of 5D range if you aren't close enough. In general, air to air is completely in her favor with all her drive options, but sometimes a rising j.B, j.C or j.2C can tag her if you time it right. Point Blank This is the range you want to aim for most of the time. Be careful of her 6B overhead. Though it is slow, it can catch you off guard fairly easily if you aren't used to seeing it. Look for her throw; it has a very short range, but can mess you up all the same. If it whiffs though, punish it. Don't expect her to use it often, but her crawl can let her low profile most of your normals, as such, you may wish to use 2A often to condition her respect. Do not use 2A/5A for every AA situation, her j.2C can beat it in most cases. You may get lucky sometimes and tag her out of a drive with 5A with relatively low risk to you, but don't lean on it. Offense vs DefenseYour Offense vs Her Defense She has no real defensive options aside from her mobility. Once you get in, don't let go. On her wakeup, use 2A oki if you want to pressure her wakeup; she can beat your 5B oki with low profiling. Watch out for her moves that allow her to low profile your 5C if you try and intercept her. Her Offense vs Your Defense I would not use DP C very often as a defensive tool with all her mobility options, but if she seems committed to a move, you may want to toss it out. Just don't expect to catch her with it if she is using her drive all over the screen. DP D is a bit better, but watch your meter. Watch out for crossups and follow her movements as best you can. Gimmicks and Miscellaneous InfoGimmicks Her OD, Almost Becoming Two, forms a clone of her that mimics her actions with a 12 frame delay, making her pressure and combos more difficult to deal with. Block as best you can, but keep in mind her 22C in this state can cause a decent amount of chip damage. Her j.4D drive where she dives down at the ground then dashes very low across the ground refreshes her jumps when she reaches the ground from her dive, and thus can be canceled and re-input repeatedly as a spacing tool or to bait you into attacking. Misc. Info Her jump cancellable normals on block include 5A, 5B and 6A. She still has drive cancels to watch for however. Watch out for her 2D (diagonal forward-up dash) drive when you approach from the air; it can stuff you fairly easily at the correct spacing and give her a nice combo. 236C (down swipe) gets overhead properties if used a second time [236C (down) > C (up) > C > (down, overhead)], unless she is in OD. 236C also has a B followup that hits low. Her projectiles will either go straight forward, forward in an arc, or travel along the ground. She has only two really tricky projectiles. One is the baseball, which upon whiffing will come from behind her and travel across the screen again after some delay. The other is the red bowling ball, which rolls along the ground and is useful for oki on your wake up from her 3C. Be careful of her intercepting you if you attempt to jump out of it. There are five different cancels she can use off of a drive. 6 makes her arc forward4 makes her arc backwardA makes her attack with one paw (no damage?), is -2 on block, +1 on hit and consumes 1 air actionB makes her stretch out and attack with both paws (no damage?), is -5 on block and about +0 on hitC makes her leap up, but does not consume an air action Frame AdvantageFrame Advantage Frame Disadvantage Punishes SummaryI would put this matchup at 5/5. As long as you block effectively and confirm well, you can generally outlast her or outright beat her. This matchup is more about patience than anything. Getting antsy can get you in trouble. Approach with caution, look for opportunities to counter her and don't let up when you get momentum.

Initial Notes and Match StartMu is a long-mid range zoning character who sets delayed projectile traps of a sort, known as steins, to boost her pressure and combos and help her interrupt your own attempts to pressure or attack her. Her damage is somewhat average among the whole cast, lower than Jin’s damage for the most part, and her HP is a bit low. To make up for this however, she has respectable mobility and one of the best DPs in the game. In the hands of an average player, she is decent, but in the hands of a skilled player, she can be quite formidable. At match start, your best bet is jumping forward while Barrier blocking. Her normals will usually trade with your own, but to her advantage. A few exceptions to this are your 3C against her 2B at a long range and your 5C against her 5C at close range. You will want to close the gap between you, but beware of getting stopped by her steins and long range pokes. NeutralFull Screen At full screen, she has the clear advantage, where she can set steins up as she pleases to harass you and ease her approach to her ideal long-mid range game. Watch out for her stein placement and timing. Be careful using your ice swords; more often than not, you will eat a stein. Steins take some time to fire, so you have a decent chance to throw out an ice sword right after she sets one up. Don’t spam ice swords though, they will not help you much in the long run unless you actually hit her with one. Hitting her will stop any steins on the field from firing their delayed laser, but they can still be used for her laser special that bounces a bolt between steins and her stein detonator, which makes them explode. Focus on trying to get in safely with careful dashing and jumping, using Barrier block to stop your ground momentum as needed or to avoid damage. Long-Mid Range At long and mid-range, she has a slight advantage over you, with normals that are faster than your own or that have better hitboxes. Her 5C is a little slower than yours, but at sufficient distance it can trade to her advantage, letting her get off a full combo. She can’t use steins as freely at this range, but will try to mix them into her combos to set you up. Be careful of her 214A projectile, which can stuff your projectiles easily with its multiple hits and keep you in block stun for a good while. You will want to look for openings to start closing in to close range, where you can get momentum more easily. Be careful of dashing in with 2B though; her own 2B is really strong and could beat yours if she calls you out. Low profiling her normals rarely works out anyway, with how big their hitboxes are. She can use 6C as well at this range, which is faster than your 2D. Don’t get FC from it or you could eat 3.6k damage or so, and be carried a good distance to the corner. Even if you block it though, she can stein cancel it and jump away to avoid being punished by your max range 2D. Air-to-air is somewhat in your favor, as your j.C comes out faster than hers and seems to have longer range. Just be careful if she is higher up than you of her j.2C, which could smack you down with its rather large hitbox. Point Blank At close and point blank range, you generally have the advantage but she has some fairly useful tools of her own. Watch out for her 6B; the first hit can be blocked while crouching, but the second hit is an overhead. If she wants to, she can special cancel the first hit with a Crush Trigger or even Rapid Cancel it and go into 2B for mix-up. Also watch for air throw, 6A and 2C when approaching from the air. 2C can be baited if you are ready for it with a double jump and punished. 6A does not hit as high, but it has a good amount of head invulnerability and a decent horizontal range, even hitting behind her to an extent. 6A also allows her to reverse gatling into 5B and can go into 2B if she hasn’t used it yet. Be careful of her 2B, it is a very strong normal with respectable range and a fast 8 frame startup. At this distance, it beats nearly everything you can throw at it aside from a jump or a DP. Always be careful of her 623C DP too, it has very strong invulnerability and hits all around her. It knocks you back a good distance if it connects, but gives you a free punish if you block it and she can’t RC it. Offense and DefenseYour Offense vs Her Defense Your offense is reasonable against her defense. Watch out for her 623C and drive her to the corner when you can to keep her from using her back dash to escape. Get in her face when you get momentum and approach with caution otherwise with well-spaced 5C and 5B. Jump in carefully, watching for her 2C so that you can jump to avoid it and then punish her. Her Offense vs Your Defense Her offense may be a little less stable than yours at close range, but it is still respectable. She can make things difficult for you at longer and longer distances though. You can DP if you think you can get away with it, but her DP is better and can beat you if you get predictable. Jump away if you have to, but you give her room to set up steins if you don’t keep close to her. You are usually better off Barrier blocking and IB her to get out of pressure. Make sure you try and chase her down when she tries to retreat after an unsuccessful block string. Gimmicks and Miscellaneous InfoGimmicks She can use j.B to cross you up rather safely. She can also use her special, Ikutachi (63214B), to cross you up as well, but you can block, or even duck under it at some distances to avoid it. Be careful of trying to counter it however, as she can DP after it in some cases to stuff your attempt to do so if you are too slow. Hitting her, even if she blocks, causes all steins on the field to not use their delayed laser in non-OD. Be careful of her steins hitting you out of combos, especially after she uses 236C/j.236C, the bouncing laser bolt. Her aerial hitbox is rather wide, allowing you to land j.C > j.2C > j.2C > j.C > j.214C more easily off of some combos. However, it is not very tall either, which causes some corner combo strings to whiff, namely 214B(whiff)~C > 2B will not pick up with 2B or will whiff the C in the corner and air hit 6B > 5B will not work, which means 6C > 6B > 5B is not an option against her. You can use air hit 6B > 5A instead, but be careful of the reduced damage and shorter combo time of 5A. You will probably need to rework a few combos against her that have A or B starters to re-optimize damage and oki. Somewhat fortunately for you, your hitbox is slim, making her CH 5C > 6C whiff if she is too close. She can still use CH 5C > 63214C(max charge) for a combo with nearly the same damage. Her OD lets her steins fire lasers independently multiple times, increases the number of bounces for her 236D laser, and maxes the number of hits from detonating her steins with 214D. Misc. Info Jump cancelable ground normals: 5A, 2A, 5B, 5C, 2C (on hit), 6A, 3C Some info to sum up her moves to watch for: 2B is very strong against you at the correct range.5C is a good poke that comes out faster than your 5C at the tip, but slower everywhere else. Very long stagger on CH.2C is a high hitting AA and used to extend ground bounce combos from air hit 6B.3C is a decent ender and can also combo into her Astral Heat.6A is a decent AA that has little vertical range, but grants head invulnerability frames. Can reverse gatling into 5B and, if not used earlier, 2B.6B can be blocked crouching on the first hit (CPEX), but the second hit is an overhead. She can cancel the first hit with a RC to get a low in for mix-up. Can cause FC.6C seems punishable at first glance, but it can be stein canceled to make it safe. Can cause FC.j.2C has a large hitbox, making it a decent move with good spacing for jump ins. Can be countered without too much trouble if you are prepared.623C is a very strong DP; watch out for it.236A can put you in block stun for a while and stuffs your projectiles. Used on the ground, it travels horizontally in a straight line for a good distance, then curves up sharply. Used in the air, it will not travel as far horizontally, and it curves down instead of up.63214B is usually only used in combos, but it can cross you up if she feels gutsy. DP C is a reasonably good answer for it if you are quick enough.Steins…steins…steins. Watch for them. Frame Advantage, Disadvantage, and Punishes (WIP)Frame Advantage She does not have very good frame advantage in general, but she can usually deal with it fairly well. Her 2B is +0 on block though. Frame Disadvantage Most of her normals with frame disadvantage can be special or stein canceled. Even j.2C can be special canceled into j.236A to avoid some of the landing recovery, though this can be beaten if you are fast enough. Her 236D laser special has a lot of startup and can be punished if you get to her in time. 623C is also a free punish if you block it and she has no meter. Punishes Air dash over 236A at the right spacing (around your max 2D range) and use j.2C/j.D for a counter combo. Block 623C (-26) and punish with whatever you like, assuming she can't RC it. SummaryI would put this match up at roughly 4.5/5.5 in Mu’s favor, maybe an even 5/5. This matchup is very dynamic; things can go extremely well or extremely poorly for both sides. Your higher HP and damage help make the match easier despite her steins and range, but you have to get in or you will likely get zoned out of victory.

Initial Notes and Match StartThis post is not fully complete, but it should tell you almost everything you need. Relius is an offensive character with a somewhat gimmicky, but scary mid-range zoning game. He will make use of his doll, Ignis, to augment his pressure, frame trap the living daylights out of you, and extend his combos for almost twice the damage he can do on his own. His weakness is that he has few defensive options and that he must manage his Ignis meter carefully or he will lose the ability to use Ignis for a period of time, during which he becomes vulnerable. At match start, your best bet is probably to jump forward and barrier to see what he does, most of his staple ground normals will trade or barely beat yours, but you can't jump in and expect a free hit, his 2C is extremely good at stuffing your air approach. It's okay if you let him start a pressure string without Ignis for a little bit, since he doesn't have very stable pressure without her. You will want to try and get in his face to keep him from summoning Ignis when possible. Just watch out that you don't let him hit you from his 5B > 236C range and chase him down if he tries to run and summon Ignis. If he starts by super jumping back and summoning Ignis, you should try to approach, but stay on your toes. Summoned Ignis makes his pressure far less easy to predict and gives him more options. Neutral Full Screen At full screen, neither of you are in an ideal position, but he has more options than you, such as 22C to keep you on your toes and 214B, which summons or moves Ignis behind you for an attack that may take place off-screen if you are too close to the edge of the screen. Don't rely on projectiles to get in, he can stuff them with Ignis and simultaneously move her closer to you for another attack and further zoning options. You will want to try and get in to long-mid range and then point blank, but he will also like long-mid range and may try to hit you on your way in with Ignis to get some momentum or make your approach more difficult. Long-Mid Range At long-mid range, both of you have some useful tools, but his are more numerous and can overwhelm yours, especially with Ignis summoned. Watch out for 5B pokes, be aware of his 6D and 2D with Ignis, and look for 2C and 4D when trying to jump in. If you get hit by a max range 5B, he can't do very much off of it, without Ignis summoned, but he can get about 2k if he feels like wasting a ton of Ignis meter, which a good Relius wouldn't do. But get a bit closer than that and he can combo you for about 3.7k without any heat on a raw 5B hit with or without Ignis summoned. At his max 5B range, you probably have a slight advantage since you can CH 5C him and then follow up with 2D and a jump cancel for a combo or even a near max range 2D > jump > j.B can lead to a combo, but you can't throw out 5C or 2D carelessly or it could get you in trouble. Both of you can beat the other jumping in carelessly, but Relius can use Ignis to set up some tricky pressure strings and safe overheads. He can also set up unblockables with Ignis using her 214D and 236D that can be beaten with a well placed DP or 2C or simply avoided by jumping, but you should be aware of them. Point Blank Point blank is generally in Jin's favor, but Relius does have a few options that could mess you up if you aren't careful. He will generally save his meter for one of two things: Rapid Cancels for combos without Ignis or an escape with a counter assault or his only real reversal, his Req Vinum DD. You shouldn't need to worry about the last two much, but be aware that he can stop your pressure and knock you back to mid-long range again. Alternatively, he can Led Ley to make an attack whiff and then punish you, but this is generally difficult to do unless you are too predictable, and gets him in trouble if it fails. Regarding the corner, drive him there whenever possible, but don't let him put you there if you can help it. Relius' pressure is considerably more dangerous in the corner, and his meterless damage still exceeds your own. Don't try to DP out carelessly though; some of his best pressure strings with Ignis make it easy for him to bait reversals in the corner if he calls it out. Offense and Defense Your Offense vs His DefenseHis 5B can trade with your 5C at a considerable distance for both of you getting hit, or it will beat you if he's close enough, depending on how fast he is. His 3C is as fast as your 2B, but 2B will win if spaced properly. However, be wary of his own 2B. It is weak and slow to start, but it is a fairly long range low. Don't run in with 2B carelessly, as his 5B beats it. He has lost 3C jump cancel, but can jump cancel 2C, making his high/low mix up a bit weaker, but watch out for his jump in if Ignis is in play. Air to air is generally in your favor, but depends on spacing. The farther away from him you are in air to air, the better, unless he has Ignis summoned, which makes it more even. When you get on the offensive, there isn't much he can do other than run, wait for you to give him an opening via IB, or burn 50 meter to escape. His Offense vs Your Defense If he gets on the offensive, you are best off waiting out his Ignis pressure if you can manage it and then chasing him down after he returns her. If he is trying to pressure you without Ignis, you can pretty much sit there and down back to block his strings, trying to IB when possible for an opening. Just watch for a gutsy 6A overhead (fairly obvious) or a 2C jump cancel. You can try to DP him out on the ground if you wish, but it is a risk vs reward call. Failing will get you comboed, potetially for over 3.5k. Gimmicks and Miscellaneous InfoGimmicks Remember that you can hit Ignis while she is performing an attack to reduce her gauge and even de-summon or break her (except for 2D and Duo Bios). I wouldn't try focusing on it too much, but it's good to keep in mind. As with fighting Carl and Nirvana, you must block based on the position of Relius, not Ignis. He generally has a harder time than Carl tricking you this way however. His j.B has the potential for crossups, but can be difficult for him to confirm off of. Still, you should be mindful of them. Remember also he has a rather tall hitbox; take advantage of it. Some combos Relius has will not work as easily on Jin, or have to be modified (weakened) to complete. Jin may also run into problems due to Relius' aerial hitbox with certain corner combos that use (stuff) > 623C (max height) > 5C > 2C > 6C > 214B(whiff)~C that cause the C followup to whiff if 5C catches him too high. These can be fixed with proper delays and spacing though. Ignis attacks all have projectile properties. Note that a few of them cannot be interrupted with an attack, such as 2D, which has guard point, and Duo Bios (punching puppet DD similar to Carl's DD with Nirvana) which has super armor, but is easily escaped and countered with Jin's Yukikaze DD, though Relius can escape the counterattack if he is looking for it and may be able to attack you afterward. Misc. Info Not much to say here that wasn't already in Gimmicks. Watch out for his 5B poke. Yes, this bears repeating. Oh, and if I didn't mention already, his OD lets him use Ignis infinitely for its duration. So...yeah, there is that. It makes his Ignis 214A go really far, really fast too. Frame Advantage, Disadvantage, and PunishesFrame Advantage I hesitate to put much down here, as Ignis can change his pressure game drastically, giving him access to both airtight pressure and solid frame traps on the fly if the opponent knows how to use him. Just...don't try to counter attack him with Ignis summoned unless you are prepared for things to go wrong. Without Ignis though, just wait out his pressure. His strings are not very long and his only normals with a jump cancel on block are 5A and 2C. Frame Disadvantage Again, Ignis really changes the dynamics of everything. Just know that without Ignis, his 6C and 236C are some moves you may end up punishing. I might try looking more at this later. Punishes Let us assume Ignis is tucked away in space off the field. After 5C > 2C with pressure, he can either jump, use 3C, or use 6C. 6C (-17) is stupid for him. I would IB and thrash him if he tries it even though he has the option of 236C afterward. If he has 50 heat though, that is a bit more risky, as he could RC the 236C even if you call it out. Jump is sometimes possible to try and attack, but can be risky and he can always block your attempt to punish it. 3C can be punished (-10 on normal block), mostly if you IB it, but the window is very brief and normally you will be out of range to do so. Also, he could still try 236C after 3C, but blocking it would put momentum in your favor at least, at best give you a free punish. SummaryI would put this matchup at about 4.5/5.5 in Relius' favor, but it feels fairly even. Just make use of good blocking and barrier blocking as you approach and don't let up on him when you get in. Always be wary whenever Ignis is summoned.

Initial Notes and Match StartWord of advice, if you really want to get good at this match, you'll probably need to study her for a bit to best know what you can punish and what frame traps she can make, as a lot of her moves tend to look alike to the untrained eye. Makoto is a rushdown character that loves to get in your face. Most of the time, you can beat her with good spacing as your pokes can hit her out of her attack range for the most part. However, sometimes you will fail to keep her out and escaping her pressure can be difficult due to her rushdown. Knowing what you can punish will help you get momentum back in your favor if and when she does. If you can't punish though, learn to IB and make wise use of Barrier Block to push her out. At match start, you will probably want to barrier jump back to see what she does or perhaps back dash, but that is riskier. You can outrange her if she does the wrong move, but she also has several options that can stuff your attempts to do so. Risk vs reward call. Neutral Full ScreenAt full screen, there is next to nothing either of you can do. You can try zoning with ice swords if you wish, but her projectile can beat them easily if you don’t space them properly. Long-Mid Range At long and midrange you have a rather clear advantage, but she has a few tools that can close the gap if you get careless, her 5D and 236D to an extent come to mind. They are somewhat risky if you are looking for them however and can be counter attacked with decent reactions, except for 5D, which should be blocked if she has the guts to try it, then punished. Zone her with well-spaced 5C, j.C and maybe a max range 2D if you feel up to it. If you have 25 meter, you can also use 5D and EX ice car after it for a combo. Only approach to close range if you have momentum. Point Blank At close and point blank range, she has the advantage, with very solid pressure strings and okay mixup. Though rare and risky, be wary of her attempting throw counters after moves you think you can punish. I’m not sure what it’s most common for her to use it off of, but I’ve had it happen to me a couple times. Use IB and Barrier to get out of pressure as best you can or DP if you feel like risking it. If you have momentum, you can stay in, but be careful of her own defensive moves like 623C DP and her parry (which can be blocked if you defend before she actually uses it). Offense and Defense Your Offense vs Her DefenseYour offense is fairly solid against her defense at the correct range. Just be wary that she can parry you with good reactions, duck back and attack at the proper distances, and can low profile some of your normals with 3C. Her Offense vs Your Defense Her offense can be somewhat scary for you. Try your best to get out of her pressure with good blocking and Barrier and be careful when waking up of oki with her projectile, 236A. Against that projectile oki, your best bet is going to be neutral wake up with Barrier Block 9 times out of 10. Gimmicks and Miscellaneous Info GimmicksNot exactly a gimmick, but keep in mind her OD drastically reduces the recovery of her drive attacks, making them relatively safe and a bit more damaging. Also at level 3 charge gauge, and in OD, many of her drive moves cause Fatal Counter; be wary of using careless block strings against her. Her counter parry will lose to lows, throws and unblockables. Misc. Info Now, a bit about her moves to watch out for: 5C, which has a C follow up that can frame trap if desired. 3C has a very low profile that makes your attacks whiff, but has a long startup. 6A is a very good anti-air that stuffs almost everything you can use from the air unless you get behind her enough to evade it. It can also gatling into her 6B overhead or allow 5B > 6A > 5B. 6B, one of the faster overheads in the game, that has a C follow up leading to a combo. 236A, a strong persisting projectile that beats your ice swords and has strong oki potential. 214A (Asteroid Vision, shadow clone move with the bottom one being the real Makoto) gives her some follow up options that can trick you if you aren’t careful: D follow up can be used to close in and is safe if you decide to block it, but it is easy to intercept.A and B are feints that can cancel the dash and make her appear in front of you (A) or behind you (B); B can be punished fairly easily if you are ready for it. These are the only things that really stop you from trying to intercept 214A every chance you get, assuming you have good judgement of when to do so.C follow up gives further options to her:~A follow up is an overhead that needs RC or a CH to combo further.~B follow up is a low that is unsafe on block; look for it and punish when possible.~D can be used to frame trap.214B (Asteroid Vision with the middle being the real Makoto) can close distance very quickly in a jumping arc and her D follow up has a deceptive range with it. It might get stuffed by 623B, but I haven't tried it very much. 236D can evade your attack with a long step back and punish it at the right distance if she calls it out, but it can be intercepted if used carelessly. 5D also starts with a step back, but a much shorter one and dashes a good distance forward with a fast attack; it is an easy punish if you block it, but if you are expecting 236D and trying to intercept, you will lose. 6C can be countered on block, but she can special cancel into 623C DP to counter your jab. Frame Advantage, Disadvantage, and Punishes Frame AdvantageAs I said earlier, you don't really want to try counter attacking during her normal pressure unless she screws up. She has very good frame advantage; even her 5A is +2 on block. Frame Disadvantage There aren’t very many moves you can counter easily without good spacing that you would encounter during normal pressure, except for 6C, assuming she doesn’t DP after it, and 2C, which you realistically shouldn’t see in pressure. You have to wait for a slow starting normal like her overhead if your reactions are solid, block and Barrier, or DP your way out. The only real exception to this is j.2C, her falling tail attack which is not easy to AA, but can be blocked and punished. Some other moves with frame advantage worse than -5 that have no gatling are below: 6C: -11 (Can be special canceled)5D: -15 at lvl 3 charge gauge (A gimmicky move outside combos)2D: -16 at lvl 3 charge gauge (Not very likely to see in pressure at all)623C: -42 (fairly standard…punish the whiffed or blocked DP)Stargazer (follow up move: 214A~C~B [low attack]): -14 Punishes Use your superior range to intercept her advance by carefully timing your attacks against moves like 236D and 3C. It isn't likely you'll get many chances to do so if the opponent is good, but keep an eye out. Try to predict when she will use a DP and block it for a free punish. SummaryI would put this matchup at 6/4 in Jin’s favor, but if you don’t block decently and don’t zone effectively, this matchup can be a real pain.

Going to work on this one next week unless someone beats me to it, but I found something that is really annoying about this matchup in CPEX: 214B(whiff)~C > 2B does not work in the corner; it either whiffs the C followup or hits her too low for 2B pickup. Or if it does, it is so strict that it is nigh impossible to land. Still works midscreen though (curse your stupid aerial hitbox Mu!).

Going to try posting a bit about this matchup. Not totally complete, but should be a good primer. Word of advice though, if you really want to get good at this match, you'll probably need to study her for a bit to best know what you can punish and what frame traps she can make, as a lot of her moves tend to look alike to the untrained eye. All this advice will be for CPEX; vanilla CP and CP 1.1 have some slightly different nuances, but the overall strategy will be the same. Makoto is a rushdown character that loves to get in your face. Most of the time, you can beat her with good spacing as your pokes can hit her out of her attack range for the most part. However, it can be difficult to keep her out and escaping her pressure can be difficult due to her rushdown. Knowing what you can punish will help you get momentum back in your favor if and when she does. If you can't punish though, learn to IB and make wise use of Barrier Block to push her out. Match Start: You will probably want to barrier jump back to see what she does or perhaps back dash, but that is riskier. You can outrange her if she does the wrong move, but she also has several options that can stuff your attempts to do so. Risk vs reward call. Neutral: At full screen, there is next to nothing either of you can do. You can try zoning with ice swords if you wish, but her projectile can beat them easily if you don’t space them properly. At long and midrange you have a rather clear advantage, but she has a few tools that can close the gap if you get careless, her 5D and 236D to an extent come to mind. They are somewhat risky if you are looking for them however and can be counter attacked with decent reactions, except for 5D, which should be blocked if she has the guts to try it, then punished. Zone her with well-spaced 5C, j.C and maybe a max range 2D if you feel up to it. If you have 25 meter, you can also use 5D and EX ice car after it for a combo. Only approach to close range if you have momentum. At close and point blank range, she has the advantage, with very solid pressure strings and okay mixup. Though rare and risky, be wary of her attempting throw counters after moves you think you can punish. I’m not sure what it’s most common for her to use it off of, but I’ve had it happen to me a couple times. Use IB and Barrier to get out of pressure as best you can or DP if you feel like risking it. If you have momentum, you can stay in, but be careful of her own defensive moves like 623C DP and her parry (which can be blocked if you are ready for it). Offense and Defense: Your offense is fairly solid against her defense at the correct range. Just be wary that she can parry you with good reactions, duck back and attack at the proper distances, and can low profile some of your normals with 3C. Her offense can be somewhat scary for you. Try your best to get out of her pressure with good blocking and Barrier and be careful when waking up of oki with her projectile, 236A. Now, a bit about her moves to watch out for: 5C, which has a C follow up that can frame trap if desired. 3C has a very low profile that makes your attacks whiff, but has a long startup. 6A is a very good anti-air that stuffs almost everything you can use from the air unless you get behind her enough to evade it. It can also gatling into her 6B overhead or allow 5B > 6A > 5B. 6B, one of the faster overheads in the game, that has a C follow up leading to a combo. 236A, a strong persisting projectile that beats your ice swords and has strong oki potential. 214A (Asteroid Vision, shadow clone move with the bottom one being the real Makoto) gives her some follow up options that can trick you if you aren’t careful: D follow up can be used to close in and is safe if you decide to block it, but it is easy to intercept. A and B are feints that can cancel the dash and make her appear in front of you (A) or behind you (B); B can be punished fairly easily if you are ready for it. These are the only things that really stop you from trying to intercept 214A every chance you get, assuming you have good judgement of when to do so. C follow up gives further options to her: ~A follow up is an overhead that needs RC or a CH to combo further. ~B follow up is a low that is unsafe on block; look for it and punish when possible. ~D can be used to frame trap. 214B (Asteroid Vision with the middle being the real Makoto) can close distance very quickly in a jumping arc and her D follow up has a deceptive range with it. It might get stuffed by 623B but I haven't tried it very much. 236D can evade your attack with a long step back and punish it at the right distance if she calls it out, but it can be intercepted if used carelessly. 5D also starts with a step back, but a much shorter one and dashes a good distance forward with a fast attack; it is an easy punish if you block it, but if you are expecting 236D and trying to intercept, you will lose. 6C can be countered on block, but she can special cancel into 623C DP to counter your jab. Gimmicks: Not exactly a gimmick, but keep in mind her OD drastically reduces the recovery of her drive attacks, making them relatively safe and a bit more damaging. Also at level 3 charge gauge, many of her drive moves cause Fatal Counter; be careful of using careless block strings against her. Her counter parry will lose to lows, throws and unblockables. Frame Advantage: There aren’t very many moves you can counter easily without good spacing that you would encounter during normal pressure, except for 6C, assuming she doesn’t DP after it, and 2C, which you realistically shouldn’t see in pressure. You have to wait for a slow starting normal like her overhead if your reactions are solid, block and Barrier, or DP your way out. The only real exception to this is j.2C, her falling tail attack which is not easy to AA, but can be blocked and punished. Some other moves with frame advantage worse than -5 that have no gatling are below: 6C: -11 (Can be special canceled) 5D: -15 at lvl 3 charge gauge (A gimmicky move outside combos) 2D: -16 at lvl 3 charge gauge (Not very likely to see in pressure at all) 623C: -42 (fairly standard…punish the whiffed or blocked DP) Stargazer (follow up move: 214A~C~B): -14 Summary: I would put this matchup at 6/4 in Jin’s favor, but if you don’t block decently and don’t zone effectively, this matchup can be a real pain.

I'll go ahead and post what I know about my favorite sub. This may not be everything, but it should be a good starting point. Match Start: Your best bet is probably to jump forward and barrier to see what he does, most of his staple ground normals will trade or barely beat yours, but you can't jump in and expect a free hit, his 2C is extremely good at stuffing your air approach. It's okay if you let him start a pressure string without Ignis for a little bit, since he doesn't have very stable pressure without her. You will want to try and get in his face to keep him from summoning Ignis when possible. Just watch out that you don't let him hit you from his 5B > 236C range and chase him down if he tries to run and summon Ignis. If he starts by super jumping back and summoning Ignis, you should try to approach, but stay on your toes. Summoned Ignis makes his pressure far less easy to predict and gives him more options. Neutral: At full screen, neither of you are in an ideal position, but he has more options than you, such as 22C to keep you on your toes and 214B, which summons or moves Ignis behind you for an attack that may take place off-screen if you are too close to the edge of the screen. Don't rely on projectiles to get in, he can stuff them with Ignis and simultaneously move her closer to you for another attack and further zoning options. You will want to try and get in to long-mid range and then point blank, but he will also like long-mid range and may try to hit you on your way in with Ignis to get some momentum or make your approach more difficult. At long-mid range, both of you have some useful tools, but his are more numerous and can overwhelm yours, especially with Ignis summoned. Watch out for 5B pokes, be aware of his 6D and 2D with Ignis, and look for 2C and 4D when trying to jump in. If you get hit by a max range 5B, he can't do very much off of it, without Ignis summoned, but he can get about 2k if he feels like wasting a ton of Ignis meter, which a good Relius wouldn't do. But get a bit closer than that and he can combo you for about 3.7k without any heat on a raw 5B hit with or without Ignis summoned. At his max 5B range, you probably have a slight advantage since you can CH 5C him and then follow up with 2D and a jump cancel for a combo or even a near max range 2D > jump > j.B can lead to a combo, but you can't throw out 5C or 2D carelessly or it could get you in trouble. Both of you can beat the other jumping in carelessly, but Relius can use Ignis to set up some tricky pressure strings and safe overheads. He can also set up unblockables with Ignis using her 214D and 236D that can be beaten with a well placed DP or 2C or simply avoided by jumping, but you should be aware of them. Point blank is generally in Jin's favor, but Relius does have a few options that could mess you up if you aren't careful. He will generally save his meter for one of two things: Rapid Cancels for combos without Ignis or an escape with a counter assault or his only real reversal, his Req Vinum DD. You shouldn't need to worry about it much, but be aware that he can stop your pressure and knock you back to mid-long range again. Alternatively, he can Led Ley to make an attack whiff and then punish you, but this is generally difficult to do unless you are too predictable, and gets him in trouble if it fails. Regarding the corner, drive him there whenever possible, but don't let him put you there if you can help it. Relius' pressure is considerably more dangerous in the corner, and his meterless damage still exceeds your own. Don't try to DP out carelessly though; some of his best pressure strings with Ignis make it easy for him to bait reversals in the corner if he calls it out. Offense and Defense: His 5B can trade with your 5C at a considerable distance for both of you getting hit, or it will beat you if he's close enough, depending on how fast he is. His 3C is as fast as your 2B, but 2B will win if spaced properly. However, be wary of his own 2B. It is weak and slow to start, but it is a fairly long range low. Don't run in with 2B carelessly, as his 5B beats it. He has lost 3C jump cancel, but can jump cancel 2C, making his high/low mix up a bit weaker, but watch out for his jump in if Ignis is in play. Air to air is generally in your favor, but depends on spacing. The farther away from him you are in air to air, the better, unless he has Ignis summoned, which makes it more even. When you get on the offensive, there isn't much he can do other than run, wait for you to give him an opening via IB, or burn 50 meter to escape. If he gets on the offensive, you are best off waiting out his Ignis pressure if you can manage it and then chasing him down after he returns her. If he is trying to pressure you without Ignis, you can pretty much sit there and down back to block his strings, trying to IB when possible for an opening. Just watch for a gutsy 6A overhead (fairly obvious) or a 2C jump cancel. You can try to DP him out on the ground if you wish, but it is a risk vs reward call. Failing will get you comboed, potetially for over 3.5k. Gimmicks and Miscellaneous Info: Remember that you can hit Ignis while she is performing an attack to reduce her gauge and even de-summon or break her (except for 2D and Duo Bios). I wouldn't try focusing on it too much, but it's good to keep in mind. As with fighting Carl and Nirvana, you must block based on the position of Relius, not Ignis. He generally has a harder time than Carl tricking you this way however. His j.B has the potential for crossups, but can be difficult for him to confirm off of. Still, you should be mindful of them. Some combos Relius has will not work as easily on Jin, or have to be modified (weakened) to complete. Jin may also run into problems with certain corner combos that use (stuff) > 623C (max height) > 5C > 2C > 6C > 214B(whiff)~C that cause the C followup to whiff if 5C catches him too high. These can be fixed with proper delays and spacing though. Ignis attacks all have projectile properties. Note that a few of them cannot be interrupted with an attack, such as 2D, which has guard point, and Duo Bios (punching puppet DD similar to Carl's DD with Nirvana) which has super armor, but is easily escaped and countered with Jin's Yukikaze DD, though Relius can escape the counterattack if he is looking for it and may be able to attack you afterward. Summary: I would put this matchup at about 4.5/5.5 in Relius' favor, but it feels fairly even. Just make use of good blocking and barrier blocking as you approach and don't let up on him when you get in. Always be wary whenever Ignis is summoned.

Yes, you should be able to sekka just fine after 2B or 2B > 5B(1). If you don't delay the 5C long enough, sometimes a tiny bit extra delay of 6C will fix it, but again, you'll probably need to practice it a good while to know the spacing. On a side note, has anyone found a 50% hp OD combo using 100 heat off of 5C CH better than these midscreen? CH 5C > 6C > 2D > 9 > OD > j.214D > CT > 6B > j.214C > 66 6C > 22C > 66 5C > 3C > 632146D (6060) - Hit them with j.214D (both hits) asap after 2D, but get a little height from the jump before OD. Easier than the next combo. CH 5C > 6C > 2D > CT > OD > 66 6C > 2D > 6B > j.214D > 66 6B > j.214C > 66 6C > 22C > 3C > 632146D (6151, [6015 w/o 3C]) - Very very fast execution required, may require you to start mid-range or close 5C. CT asap. OD runs out as DD is used, but still does bonus damage. - Note this one is character specific (CT whiffs on Hazama at least, but works on Litchi and maybe everyone else). For fun I tried to see what the highest damage I could do at 30% hp and full heat was in the corner. This is the best I could come up with, but the combo is so demanding in speed and timing that I still haven't landed it without blue beating the Ice Arrow, but I'm pretty sure it's possible. I just suck at it. CH 6C > CT > OD > 2C > 6B > j.214D > 6B > j.214C > 6C > 623C > 6C > 22C > 6C > 623D > 3C > 632146D (7762) Was trying to optimize a few corner combos that end in 22C or ice car oki the other day and came up with a few FC combos, etc. Damage and heat given by (Damage/Heat Gain, -Heat Loss). Delays used depending on character and spacing are annotated by (d). Near Corner: FC 22C > 66 6C > 214D(whiff)~C > 66 6C > 6D > (66) 5C > 2C > 6C > 623C > 5B(1) > 3C > 214B~C (4656/24, -25) - Can carry from start position to nearest corner, though a stretch, but not from actual center. Timing on 214D(whiff)~C will need some practice, aim for near the apex of 6C launch. Corner: FC 22C > 66 6C > 6D > 5C > 6C > (d)6D > 5C > 2C > 6C > 623C > 5B(1) > 3C > 214B~C (4727/34) FC 22C > 66 6C > CT > (66) 5C > 2C > 6C > (d)6D > (d)5C > 2C > 6C > 623C > 5B(1) > 3C > 214B~C (5295/26, -25) TK j.214D > (66) 2C > 6C > 6D > (66) 5C > 2C > 623C > 5B(1) > 22C (3762/8, -25) - Best used close range, to keep from needing first microdash. Will not work if TK j.214D is done too high up; stay low. 6A RC* > 6C > 6D > 5C > 2C > 6C > 623C > 5C > 2C > 6C > 214B~C > 2B* > 22C (3749/16) - *Adding both 5C after RC and 5B(1) after 2B will let opponent tech in the air almost immediately after 22C, and including only one of the two will let them tech midair, closer to the ground. - This combo will not work, or is nigh impossible, on Mu, and is difficult on Nu and Lambda due to funny aerial hitboxes.

Most likely you are hitting them too low for ice car knockdown to provide enough frame advantage; hit them too low and you can't pick them up. You need to get them rather high into the air for it to work, but not too high or the knockdown will whiff. Again, Hazama is really good to grind this out with, as the spacing required to land this combo on him is considerably stricter, but will teach you where you need to be to land each part of the combo. If using (stuff) > 2D > 66 5C > 2C > 6C > 214B(whiff)~C > (66) 2B route, it is best to hit them really, really low with 5C after 2D and you should probably delay the 6C by a tiny amount to get the right height. Omitting the 2C in the middle means you need to hit them higher up with 5C to get enough time after the knockdown. Even after getting that right though, there really isn't much time to microdash 2B. I find it easier to start closer with 5C so that I don't have to microdash 2B.

There is a trick to OD after 2D. You have to input up or diagonal up right after 2D to start a jump cancel but then immediately OD before you leave the ground. That lets you get a normal OD instead of a cancel OD after 2D; without the jump cancel you are still in recovery frames and it becomes a shorter cancel OD.

His throw combo staple is extremely height dependent due to the high hitstun decay of throw starter. If you hit them too low with the ice car C, you can't pick them up at all with 2B. I personally don't try microdashing 2B at all, but focus on starting close enough to my opponent with 5C to not have to. Then you need to worry about height next. I generally recommend doing the 5C > 6C route and starting fairly high up and not delaying the ice car C at all, but you really need to grind it out to get a feel for it. Hazama is probably best to practice on; if you can stick it to him, you can stick it to the entire cast pretty much. Also be careful of making 6C blow them behind you; getting close to them increases the risk of this happening, but I find it far more manageable than microdash 2B for the throw combo.

Just got the US version yesterday. I can land whiff 214B~C combos reasonably well, but one thing I am having trouble with is 623D. I can't figure out how I'm supposed to run and pickup with 3C after a raw hit from it, there is so much recovery after the 2nd hit. And my corner combo success with it is iffy at best. Is there an optimal height I'm supposed to hit them with or is the timing just that strict? EDIT: Nevermind, I figured it out. Just need to let 2nd hit of 623D come out as soon as possible midscreen and hit them at the highest point possible in the corner. I'm so used to delaying stuff I don't try using things as soon as possible. Now I need to get used to the shorter OD...

It looks to me like his astral animation has been sped up. You may still need to charge it like before, but the ice sheet comes out faster than before from what I'm seeing. In CP 1.1, the earliest I can get out Astral after OD 6C is when the opponent is just starting to get off the ground, before the apex of the arc and just before Jin's Japanese VA finishes saying the first word of his two word line for 6C. However, he is still a few frames from finishing his animation to stab into the ground by the time the opponent has landed and broken free of the freeze (later if done non-counter hit). So I'm thinking the astral animation has just been sped up, especially if it is possible to whiff Throw > Astral as shown here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=DGCpxNGoD2o#t=439

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNUqepGX_wY&index=3&list=PLNvK3eGJTMoLkhaR_n4afrehurzT4sjTb Looking at this video alone, I would guess from some of Tetsuwo's play that 22C is still best overall, but it looks to me like safe jump j.2C to catch a roll is harder, if not impossible, to do unless they delay tech for a short while - could be wrong though. I haven't really seen any Jins go for 214B~C oki; it's possible to tech from the hard knockdown before Jin reaches the apex of a single jump, even after a short combo with a 5C starter. DP C might be worth mixing in on occasion, but it's something else I don't see used much. I'd guess it is probably more situational, i.e. when you want to mess with people who don't deal with falling from height well.

He could DP him out but that would give worse positioning and less damage. If you're referring to 2C, yes it probably would have worked but you need to react to Blood Fang pretty early if you want to connect, then follow up with a j.C/j.2C for a reliable combo. It's tricky to AA a Blood Fang imo.

For 50 heat, this is the best damage I've come up with for Throw RC combos: Throw RC > 6C > 214B, 5C > 6C > *6D, 6C > 22C, 5B(1) > 5C > 2C > j.2C > j.C > dj.2C > dj.C > j.214C (4395) *...6D > OD > 6C > 6D, 6C > 6B > j.214C, 6C > 22C, 22C (4715, at full hp) But...you can get more damage with a normal throw using OD with 50 heat at full hp...so the OD combo is not really worth it: Throw, 214B(whiff), 6C > 214B, 5C > 2C > 6C, ODc, sj.D > j.214C, 632146C (4768) Throw RC combos are generally only worth it at the very base level of resource consumption or the very extremes of it imho.