Fortune

1st Match: You started good aggression with 2A 5C 5B 5Ax5 - a novel blockstring that's also a hitconfirm. It's hard to say if you were going straight for the hitconfirm but you chose to end with AOA without any meter to cover it. Rise did the natural solution to AOA - upback. Thankfully, she didn't get too much of a punish. And you were also fortunate to get Ultra Suplex from a whiff. (I'm actually shocked that punish dropped but it's netplay). You then did a random 2C, assuming that the Ultra Suplex > j.2C > TK j.214B came too late? Rise dropped the punish and then you got a 2B antiair j.2C but you didn't follow up (usually jump cancel j.B or desperation c You got back in with 2A but did 2C afterwards. Luckily Rise blocked because that's not a true string or non CH combo. Looks like the Rise's answer is upback (Margaret has plenty of ways to deal with that) Stray CH j.C > j.214B that's cool. Even though she can get more damage off that, it's important to get knockdowns however you can. You did what looked a no-tech punish with 2C. Good! But what you did afterwards was 5C > 2D, that doesn't usually combo without fatal and should only grab her if she teched forward. Rise comfortably downbacks for a good second and starts walking back (probably looking for spear or a displaced attack?). In any case you run back in and do AOA which luckily hit but you didn't do many hits and the followup j.Cs were very slow in rhythm so it dropped (netplay delay?). That was too daring, AOA was very risky. You respect the blockstring Rise does, but the notes weren't activated on you so you downbacked while Rise did j.B. There wasn't really reason to just downback that. There was no ambiguity there, she just plainly jumped. So the combo clearly dropped again so she stands there tapping 5A all day and you get a CH. Unfortunately the combo dropped at j.22C and you didn't recognize it so Rise DP'ed. The combo looks correct but netplay likely dropped the timing. Recognize when your combos drop if that situation happens. Doing God's Hand after the fact often leaves you open if they were mashing during the combo or otherwise realized it before you did. Returning to neutral is much better especially since j.22C was blocked which is +30 and a free jump. So Rise capitalizes on DP knockdown and runs at you. (Very shocked that Rise Satellites didn't happen). It appeared that Rise was trying to crossup inputs for Power Slash but didn't completely jump over yet. Power Slash worked out but I don't think you had any reason to seeing as Rise could have probably blocked and you had no meter otherwise. You wisely jump the salty salt reversal. Round 2. Rise starts by downbacking 5A. That could have been dangerous on whiff but she decides to respect it and the following 5B. You chose to walkback and do nothing afterwards. Turned out to be a very good decision! People love to roll/DP when there's a gap in her blockstrings. You punished with 2A and unfortunately messed up your buttons but the take home note here is that sometimes doing NOTHING in your strings is very strong. Look at footage later and you'll see players leave slight gaps like that to test their reaction and if nothing happens they continue pressure. 5C would have likely forced a burst (that's a free 4.5-6K lol). Slight air exchanges, she airthrows you and did AOA as oki. Thankfully you rolled that. Rise then does AOA again (wow!) but your 5B beat its startup re-armor frames. You just did autocombo later. You could have did a harder punish with 5B 2C afterwards if you reacted in time. Otherwise, ending with 214A is always the safest result. You wisely stay on the ground while Rise tries airdash airthrow. After a scramble you try 5B 5C God Hand. Personally I don't use God's Hand until I discourage mashing/rolling and want them to stay downbacking. In my experience, Rise players often DP God Hand. SB God Hand can armor that, but the point here is again recognize how unsafe you leave yourself using God's Hand. You got 2 separate hits from 5B and 5C, it would have been safer to do a combo instead. So Rise capitalizes on DP again and runs at you and tries a blockstring this time. You IMMEDIATELY Power Slashed after instant blocking 5A and hitting 5AA recovery. I'm not aware if that works or if the Rise wanted 5A stagger pressure since it was non CH. In any case, you bait the resulting salty DP and you punished with 5C (and forced the burst). Slight scramble but then you decide to gold burst, realistically Rise could have blocked that. The Rise was probably trying to go for pressure, looks like it was delayed. You chose to AOA afterwards. Once again, there was no reason to do that. You have 100 meter and a significant life lead, there's no reason to apporach poorly (or at all). More scrambles with a lot of j.A. I don't think that can challenge any of Rise's air moves Later on, you use Panta Rhei for anti-air and it forced a block, but you couldn't do anything off of it since she was airblocking. You then airdash into Rise satellites and then mashed on a satellite. There's no reason to challenge that move head-on. If anything, try to air block (you get air actions back for doing so) and keep positioning yourself to avoid as much bombs as possible. She can't throw you if you're still in blockstun so there's no reason to readily mash that. You did double Power Slash (a clear indicator that you were churning the stick for this move). Rise DP's that on reaction. You luckily rolled out of a loose pressure attempt. You caught her jumping with 5B 5C but chose to do God's Hand. That obviously doesn't combo. j.2C would have been enough. It's possible that you just overolled a motion but still. So you get hit and then later on you got hit for doing Ultra Suplex and lost the round. So the lesson here is knowing when to commit especially because Margaret is more commital in situations like these. You were winning and quickly dropped your advantage. Round 3. Both of you decide to start zoning. Both Rise j.C/Margaret j.2D occupy diagonal space and then you did spear so you forced her into the air. For once AOA was actually good choice vs j.C as it can tag keepaway attempts (watch Tahichi vs Koichi FT10 and you'll see exactly how much Aigis was hit for doing that). You avoided the DP but 5C was eaten. Thankfully you could do 5C again since there was no super meter. Unfortunately you were too far for the full punish. And Rise got Fataled twice in succession from both 5C and 2C. Looked like you wanted j.C j.2C j.214B but delay gave you 2C 214B? Too close to mash 5C so it traded. Followed with 2D (iceball accident?) so you got hit with j.B. Got tagged for pressing 2A with Rise 2C. Pretty sure Rise CH j.B > 5A should have combo'd , you did Power Slash very quickly and didn't CH again which tells me that you're doing it way too much and in response to small things. Luckily you waited it out on knockdown and j.C clipped her after doing satellite super. So it looked you were securing the win by zoning her out during satellite cooldown. Rise teches through sweep and you whiff 5A. You decide to go in, but with j.2D so you slowed your own approach and started whiffing out of range C button attacks. Looked like an attempt at spear. You get scanned for your troubles. Not that scan is a major deal but you continue whiffing slow attacks and Rise does scanned satellites for your spear attempt. So what I'm getting at once again is recognizing when you should back off pressing buttons. It was very possible to upback a predictable scanned disk/laser/super if you were aware. Luckily sweep>214AB saved you from Rise laser even though it didn't combo, guess it didn't CH in time (if possible). Hmm I did quite a bit of analysis for one match but I'll truncate the next ones if possible.

Tahichi vs Koichi FT10 EVO Runback Since I've been collecting a playlist since virtually Day 1, I guess it's a good idea for me to do my job and salvage videos. So I'll sort through relevant high level match links. Thankfully, Rurouni the Saint also gave event names/dates as well. And the playlist should serve as a backup of sort should it ever be necessary.

We did. http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/forums/topic/11101-p4u2-player-database/

^ Margaret players, that is your Bible. If needed, I will dissect some things to make it easier to chew for troubleshooting (eg: combo theory). It includes topics relevant to what I'm writing here. Okay so trying to open up players is one of your hurdles since she can't traditionally jump cancel on block."Block low until you see the high" was a common habit I've noticed in early Margaret play since she couldn't jump cancel or do the universal 5A>2A>5A seen with other characters. The TL;DR solution has generally been alternating the timing on her mixups. You want to set up situations where 50/50s can happen at relatively the same time. Margaret excels at this because of the large number of options she gets after safejumps and blockstrings. God Hand IS very slow and dangerous to commit to. You'd want to use that in situations where you can reasonably say "They will downback as soon as I start this string" to alternate timing. Even just using the long-time 2A > 214C will punish for habits to downback her blockstrings or test their patience/response with throws. However, these are generally safer examples without just relying of God's Hand: Example 1: spaced j.22C - here you have multiple high/low options among others on your landing. This is also roughly +31 which means some options force them to eat another entire blockstring. land 214C - this is what you want when they pre-emptively downback or genuinely guessed the wrong the mixup Sweep > 214A - double low that's covered by the blockstun, and if they block both you can supercancel 236236C to make it safe at most spacings. Other options include IAD j.B/j.C/2A to get back in and start blockstrings. Example 2: j.B strings j.B j.C is completely airtight, and even though j.B /isn't/ an overhead they're going to have to standblock or else they'll get hit. j.B j.C j.2B is a common double overhead corner string that is well known at this point, so you have to alternate the timing of high/low attacks j.B short delay j.C - j.C still hits and frame traps people pressing a button/switchblocking prematurely j.B delay j.C whiff - j.C is feinted where the hitbox never comes out and the animation is an illusion, you then have the option of 2A/throw/instant j.2B j.B j.C LAND - same options but you get the blockstring Example 3: 214A / j.214B Knockdown While not being strictly "safejumps" by definition, Margaret can position herself in a number of ways after a knockdown to make it hard to tell where and how she is going to land and still attack relatively safely IAD j.C safejump/empty 2A - This is the true safejump (from 214A). If you demonstrate it's effectiveness, this opens up options for empty jump low/throw setups. Jump back j.C - safe normal to bait reversals or rolling Jump over airturn j.B j.C - baits reversals that travel in one direction, also reverses inputs Jump airturn - Even without doing anything, an airturn advertises that you want to do a crossup. If you jump at a height where it's hard to tell which side Margaret will land while also being at a spot j.C or 2A could hit, then it results in a very tricky 50/50. If you like to do 2A 5C 5B 5A as your blockstring, they might be familiar enough to know the blockstring is coming to an end and you will do some sort of finisher. You have a plethora of options after 5A that cover different situations but you have to decide their habits for proper selection. (Damn that was more than I thought I'd write). Lord Knight covered a lot more of these options in his notes, so it's obviously required reading.

Combo selection has been in the process of editing in the main page for the past couple of days (with EVO of course taking significant attention away). I have not revisited damage numbers yet but made sure to cover most relevant situations. I think basic combos are probably wrapped up, but make sure to keep checking it every once in a while. For that combo you mentioned: LK was doing 2B 5B 5C > superjump cancel j.B but not really relevant to your issue. What you have to do is slightly delay j.D where she's under them and immediately special cancel j.214B. This is done so you can land 214A > Hassou Tobi properly. So should be getting enough height in your second jump cancel to do all three and then finish. Regarding neutral/pressure/mix-up advice: that should be left in the general discussion as to not confuse the focus in this thread. I highly recommend visiting LK's Evernote to see his combo/pressure selection as he likely mentioned common errors: https://www.evernote.com/shard/s330/sh/4abb1546-d657-4ef9-89d9-4ba5fbfbec15/937f8e3877d81ea8bcb3c6e31e05fe33 (Edit: I gave my opinion, in that thread)

While these have been shown on footage many times before, here are some metered confirms involving the j.2B stomp ender which I think should be catalogued: 214A > 236236C > 2C > 2D > j.22C > 66 214C > 2B(4) > j.2C > jc j.C > j.2B (214214AB) [4039/5839 50-125 meter] A useful tool to punish autopilot Evasive Action during airtight blockstrings as they must stand to execute it. In addition, it is a useful low-profile punish and even antiairs certain moves (ex: Minazuki teleport startup). This can be done from anywhere, including deep in the corner. The spacing to hit the 2C link can be strange to aim directly in the corner as it can whiff or the 2D followup will even change direction. I find that slightly walking back a step while the tornado launches them upwards allows success. Margaret must be above/close as possible to hit the j.2B ender which can be harder on certain characters midscreen (Sho/Labrys characters). I advise doing j.2C > 9 j.C to travel as far as possible > j.2B I find SB Hassou Tobi consistently links after j.2B enders, if A is possible please confirm. 2A > 5C > 5B > 236236CD > 66 2C > 2D > j.22C > 66 214C > 2B(4) > j.2C > j.2B [3547 75 meter] A good confirm that can also eat an opponent's burst on reaction if they choose to burst at the tornado. You can then follow up with 2C 2D into the same combo for 4439 without resources. Alternatively you can do 2C > Hassou Tobi for 4580 if you so choose to end the match that way. This confirm by itself is still solid to greatly reduce or eliminate the chance of Awakening at the health threshold. Also works anywhere /except/ deep in the corner as the 15 hits of tornado won't happen in time If you can confirm j.C as the starter, the damage significantly increases to 5953 by adding SB Hassou Tobi after the ender if you have full resources. 2A > 5C > 5B > 236236CD > 66 2C > 2D > j.22C > 214A > 214214A [4629/125 meter] Another way to eliminate Awakening and swing the match to our side. Doing 214A earlier gives the ability to safely cancel Hassou Tobi after j.22C but at the cost of letting your opponent burst earlier and slightly less damage (4498) Also while well known at this point, here are a list of common corner combos that lead to the backdash j.22C setup. Anything with 2A as a starter can be swapped with roughly any other ground normal or jump-in as long as the conditions still apply. 2A > 5C > 5B > 214B > 2B(4) > j.C > j.2C > j.214B (j.B > j.C >) j.2B > j.214A > 2B(4) > j.C > j.2C > j.214B 5D > 2B(4) > j.C > j.2C > j.214B C+D > 2A > 2B(4) > j.C > j.2C > j.214B (or) C+D > 2A > 5C > sj.B > j.C > j.2C > j.214B CH j.2D > 66 j.C > 2A > 5C > 5B > 214B > 2B(4) > j.2C > j.214B [Crouching] 2A > 5C > 5B > 236D > 66 2B(4) > j.C > j.2C > j.214B

This is netplay but who can resist Tahichi vs Shikki for 2 hours? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ML-hmDVWdFo

I guess that was Zouf's shorthand but it just means after the j.2C you double jump /once/ and do that entire j.B j.C delay j.D sequence right there.

New Margaret stuff that popped in from nico (in good quality lol) http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm26624924 Interesting notes: Tahichi vs Damosu (Adachi) Tahichi vs Ho-chan (Margaret mirror) Tahichi vs S. Ken that is attributed to pet - Can anyone verify this? My source was the horibuna catalog: http://horibuna.web.fc2.com/P4U2/P4U2_MAG.html

The Shabrys is BB but yes Tahichi <3

Yeah we (should...) have that in the combo thread. CH 2B is a 4K/5K meterless confirm depending on resources....... CH 2B(1) > 2C > 2D > 966 j.22C > 214C > 2B(1) or 5B > 5C > j.2C > jump j.B > j.C > j.D > j.214B > (optional 214A > Hassou Tobi/Power Slash) - free meterless confirm or 2B(1) > 2C > 2D > 966 j.22C > 214C > 2B/5B > 5C > j.C j.2C > j.C j.2C > j.214A > j.236236CD > 214D (tornado has to be spaced so all 15 hits come out and launch them) 2B has a little more range to OTG, 5B adds about 200ish damage to make things go over the 4K/5K mark but you have to be closer it's just preference. Now the caveat with this is that if they block 2B and you autopilot 2C they may likely mash/roll. They can also bait it in such a way where Margaret just flies into the sky and a good 2B like Narukami swats it. I sometimes like trying 2B > 5C since it's a tighter string at the cost of damage (you'd only get like 2B 5C 5B 5AAAAA 214A/236D stuff)

I'm almost certain that Margaret is "Mikami", saw this person do some decent confirms. The "Pre-EVO" placard is....interesting? Edit: Stand corrected (it'd help if more players weren't all default to identify lol)

Okay, I'll try give it a shot. In general, getting in with Margaret is almost effortless as several moves are traveling hitboxes and she can start offense from anywhere because of how displacing personas work. The only thing is making sure you don't charge in recklessly (I definitely do), because of how punishable she is on whiff. The projectiles are definitely good at covering these approaches so it's important to learn their mechanisms. There are a few things to know about the air balls. Both of them are also head attribute, meaning an opponent with a good 2B can use its head invincibility to counter hit you if you're too close. Persona attacks can appear under the spot that projectile was summoned, meaning that you can follow up with more pressure. Fireball (j.D) Faster but doesn't allow you to do anything else until landing > including blocking. Always appears at Margaret's location They gave these restrictions so you can't zone out with fireball mindlessly but it's still very good. Fireball is less risky when done close to the ground / at a space to stuff approach or retaliation. Stuff like an instant air backdash > fireball is good at neutral to draw a line in the sand, see what they do afterwards, and continue an offensive. During pressure, fireball is good at certain spacings to make certain strings safe or even plus. Things like far j.C > low to the ground j.D is good at discouraging some mashing and you can follow up with throw baits, 2A, or other options depending on the character and if the player is respecting. Or say for instance, you force them to block j.B j.C in the air. You can do fireball afterwards and should recover before they do so you can step back. It'll take time but just be wary of your spacing relative to theirs if they feel like mashing. Iceball (j.2D) Pauses air momentum, but allows air actions after the recovery. You can make Ardha throw out iceball from a different location following another persona attack. You can throw more than one while in the air. It has a "Autocorrecting" property that can make Ardha throw the next iceball in the proper direction if the opponent moves afterwards Iceball is still fairly risky, because they can run under you and wait for a large air unblockable 2B (Narukami, Minazukis come to mind) or other long-reaching moves such as Mitsuru 2D. You want to use it at a distance that iceball can intercept them from doing things. Superjump > iceball is usually very good, you can then use your air option to airdash, throw a fireball, land then throw spear if you want a lot of screen control. Or just throw another iceball while moving in the opposite direction. Throwing out moving hitboxes to dissuade the other from using their persona is a good tactic to implement well. Again, you can use a close to the ground iceball to make a DO NOT CROSS LINE and then enforce it with 5C/j.2C depending on their choice but be wary of rolls. Throwing out things like j.2C safely in neutral or j.22C as oki can allow you to make the iceball appear at that location can dissuade them from mashing the wrong moves to break the personas. In pressure, Iceball is also relatively safe on block if spaced well and you can follow up with moves like a spaced j.C that could punish things like rolling out of the corner. If you're daring you can try iceball > airdash to the corner > j.C/2A. As oki, you can use iceball after most knockdown combos with j.214B. From midscreen, iceball > 214A slide is generally an instant get-in tool, you're also spaced ambiguously to throw and see if they hit a button. They should be blocking the iceball. Iceball > 5C is basically an anti-moving tactic to keep them in place as 5C appears well in front of you will basically hit in front of them and they will block iceball if they jump. You can play around with this and have time to move forward and then 5C. Or just wait after the iceball, and if they roll or something unsafe try 5C. This is probably slightly advanced, but you can make the iceball appear behind them if you space certain combos correctly where j.214B hits under them/behind them and Yoshitsune moves offscreen afterwards. Iceball is slower so if they have screen-filling options like Adachi's Atom Smasher/Akihiko Maziodyne/Yosuke SB Garudyne you will need to refrain using it. But things like superjump/double jump iceball can let you float over stuff like Minazuki Wings of Purgatory reversals. There's plenty more to discuss with this, I just hoped to throw out simple ideas. Definitely look at some footage, see how the top players are using it and experiment! j.22D is primarily in Fatal Counter routes, (usually by FC starter > filler > 2B(4) > j.2C > j.22D > route to ender). Personally I feel air icegrab resets are a little outdated since most techs can usually beat it (ordinary people definitely forget about it though). I might want to add that holding [1]D is useful for preventing unwanted j.22D as well.

Required reading.

I also believe she's still strong vs Shabrys but what's your opinion for when Shabrys sometimes retreats in the bull fortress where Asterius absorbs hits? (Or should this just not happen?)

Funsies: Yukari Magaru is basically Mu Habaya Margaret Gale Slash versions could be Chipp Alpha/Beta/Gamma Blade Yukiko/Liz Maragidyne is Dizzy Imperial Ray Chie Dragon Kick = Jam Ryujin, Black Spot = "Puffball" Rise inherited I-No's notes (but doesn't explode by touching the opponent.....thank God :v)

I am interested, I definitely need more footage to help improvement/critique :o PSN: KarzeonFortune Tag: Fortune

While you're obviously correct, I'm just curious if this really applies as much to Margaret? I think there's a plentiful amount of video on both shores (with updated gameplay post NEC) that consistently comes about every other week either on the horibuna catalog or YouTube. (*Must. finish. 3-hour. Tahichi-Ougi classic!*)

You were fine, it's just that some moves are missing. Urichinan supplied very high quality screenshots of every move , I made a mirror here just in case > http://imgur.com/a/ypi2q

There's going to be some bad with the good. Right now, I'm having a set with PhilTCasual and he brilliantly thought to discuss the Marg/Shab MU on the DL chat. We actually tested some things out / talked about some habits. And both of us feel better for it. (And there you go, Phil and I had the same mind! Definitely favor active communication. Here, Twitter, Skype, PSN pms...we can do that.) A friend of mine was playing a more experienced Aigis for mirrors and advice was given through Twitter. However, another friend of mine was playing a good player but then told of "A button Teddie" and others he was legitimately dissatistified with. So there's minimal ways to discern who's "wanting to improve" or "acceptable". But yes, I think the everyday player may be inclined to gravitate toward Junes. Even if there's less players in Tartarus, we can start building expectations of serious matches. The room is still going okay as of now imo, just things I'm noticing. (Yes, we need to keep Room 10 because that's the Fortune room fk P3 :< )

I'm actually in the process now of transporting Margaret information from the above. I will be revisiting them, as some of those are likely outdated/replaced. I don't have any credentials to be "knowledgeable" by any means but I have continuously added and re-edited notes during the process of learning her to contribute. Also, I have set-aside a thread in the Margaret forum for this.

Hi, there's been some talk about improving the wiki and communciation in general. http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/10566-p4u2-evo-prep-2015/ http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/10534-p4au-list-of-issues-with-the-wikis-frame-data/ Basically, I'm making this thread to set aside things to contribute/edit in an easily-read format. 1. Better descriptions on how her moves actually work. We probably have the least information and these descriptions do not work. So we skate by because no one (including me) bothered to set up our frame data speculations or how our normals actually work. [Probably 80% done on this] There's frame data that still needs to be added (we have supposed proration values, but things like active frames/advantage/recovery need to be tested) 2. Screencaps (Urichinan actually provided these awhile ago) [DONE - by PK] 3. Combos Easy, but we need to simply show common things like enders/extenders since there's a billion ways to go about them. Inahk(z) made a pastebin some time ago for basically most confirms with excellent explanations, and we have more experience from tournaments/JP video to know which are optimal. More to comment on soon.

I use Power Slash OMC to sort of make a wall around Margaret and then prepare to block if I can catch something like 5C or Buffalo Hammer. And I do so sparingly/sooner rather than later. Of course, Power Slash will straight up ruin Titanomachia if Shabrys or the bull is too close on activation (not sure if empty Titanomachia is safe against it, but I usually prepare to block/roll those anyway) Pretty much all of our normals break the bull except for 5A/2A/j.A, D grabs, AoA,and j.B (but 5B /will/ work). Anything over 400 damage in a single hit should break the autoguard. Of course, use the best normal at your discretion (but wouldnt footstomping the bull be hilarious?)

!!!!! I need to bear witness to the next time this happens.

Okay, question. Sometimes, I prefer to open with j.C (either j.7C or j.9C depending on the MU). I've seen j.9C beat Mitsuru 5A and 2D at match start but I can't seem to replicate it myself.