Pen_Ninja

Wait... first hit of 4D is a low? Unblockables are back!

"- All jump cancels on block are gone" YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO........... fuck

Litchi - no normal chain from 6A, can only special cancel - DP dmg nerf, changed the pole position - Pole only goes one direction(?) Yo nerfs for days T__T 6A nerf really hurts... no safe combos from 6A outside of 6A > staff 2 > stuff which would be really tight... DP damage nerf will take a chunk of damage from most combos. Pole position probably means it'll go to 2D set instead of 5D after DP... not sure how I feel about that... probably good. No idea on what the last one's about though... any theories? None of this is final at least... yet.

Elizabeth's ground lasers will tag Koromaru which makes that MU hard-ish. Once I got in though, I spent a lot of time with Ken in the air and Koro coveting the ground so her DP was even less of an issue than usual.

Ah... that's a real shame... We were hoping to do Relius stuff with jump cancel > 236C > mixup

I feel like they all hit overhead. I think I hit someone high with the 3rd one.

So I got to waste a lot of my Evo time playing the newest build of P4U2 and I'll admit... I played nothing but Ken the whole time. Since I wasn't able to really test anything outside of an in game situation, I don't have as much information as I'd like to open up an official type of like Ken Combos Thread like the character subforums generally have. In general I find that Ken has some big normals and specials that are great for controlling space and Koromaru (Doge) tends to be really quick with (mostly) small hitboxes. It turns into throwing out a quick Doge move and confirming into a combo or covering against any counter-pokes with Ken's long normals. ___________________________________ I'll run through my knowledge of moves here. 5A: A decent poke in my opinion though some people disagree...quick and a much bigger hitbox than some character's 5As. 5AA has some issues hitting airborne though so it can be an issue. Jump cancellable on hit. 2A: Looks kind of like Yu's 2A. Hits low and does NOT chain into itself. Combos into 2B or 5B on normal hit. 5B: Really good poke. Reaches what seems to be almost half screen and only really suffers from being a bit slow. Combos into 236A from max range. 2B from a bit closer and 236B on CH. I'm told that this has a 2nd hit on whiff that hits higher but I was unable to test this. 2B: Has 2 hits. First hit hits low and has a relatively short range. 2nd hit hits anti-air and has a longer range but shorter than 5B. The head invuln on this move is really specific and it's really hard to plain anti-air anybody with it because most of the time, I'd just get CH with a jump-in. Jump cancellable on hit. 5C: Sends Doge out with a pretty good moving hitbox with lots of active frames. Doge will move to a spot where he will reach the opponent if necessary but the range of this move is so large that it's usually not an issue. 2C: Doge runs at the opponent and then kicks upwards. Launches on hit. Really good for jump loops. As with 5C, he'll run to where he's in range but it's more relevant here because the move doesn't go nearly as far. Can be IAD'd over 5D: Puts Doge away where he heals up slowly. Can be called back in with the D button or called in with an attack with the C button. The attack sends him from the top of the screen and can take some people by surprise but it's hard to combo off. You can mash D while getting pressured to keep Doge from eating a bunch of damage. j.A: hits 3 times but can be cancelled between hits. Good forwards hitbox and is really fast and active. Good to beat air dashes with if you're a little late. Goes into full combos on hit. j.B: This move's hitbox is crazy good. The only issue is that it's a bit slow to start up. Soft knockdowns on CH and goes into really good damage. j.2B: Not as good of a move in neutral as j.B in my opinion. Better used in combos. This moves knocks down and can be used to set up a simple air knockdown or a re-launch with 2C. B+D: Ken's DP is pretty cool but really punishable. He jumps off the screen and comes back down a little further forward from where he started. Has a hitbox on the way down but ONLY on hit. Really hard to scumbag super because Ken does not turn around and it crosses you up for the opponent by itself and since neither invuln super seems to have a back hitbox, there's no real point trying. B+C: Ken's throw leaves the opponent behind him (so do 4B+C in corner pressure) and allows them to tech when they hit the ground, shortly after Ken has recovered. Can't be combo'd off mid-screen without Doge (wasn't able to test in the corner) and doesn't seem to see a lot of use due to his long normals. A+B: Ken's AoA goes about half screen but is incredibly slow and telegraphed. Along with it being unsafe on block without Doge support, it's tough to use. 236A/B: Sends out the spear on a chain and then pulls the opponent in. It's possible to miss the 2nd hit at max range. - A version goes half screen and is quite fast. Combos off 5B. - B version is a FC moves, goes almost full screen but is slower than the A version. Does not combo off 5B without CH. - SB version seems to go the range of B but at the speed of A. Lots of hit-stun on this version. All versions leave the opponent standing on ground hit and ground slide towards you on air hit and can be followed up with A or B for the move below. DON'T WHIFF THIS WITHOUT DOGE SUPPORT READY. A or B After 236X: A followup to the move above. As far as I can see, both A and B are the same but I may be wrong. I don't think there was an SB version for this at all. This is the first move in the list that uses Ken's persona and can be interrupted to take a persona card away. That being said, it seemed like 236A > A followup was a true blockstring, at least on normal block so guard cancel is the only thing that's going to break this as it doesn't come out on whiff either. This move knocks down and may be an overhead. I don't think it is but Mike Muscles swears he couldn't block it low (but he's a scrub). Really good in combos and also makes 236X safe. 214A/B: Heals Doge and I'm told it heals Ken too (But I did not notice this). Also uses Ken's persona and is more likely to be hit out of than the one above. Recovery is decently fast and I was able to use it during a blocked 236C and be completely safe. B version is slower but still really fast and heals more. SB version heals almost a full Doge gauge and recovers very quickly. Edit: Watched some footage and it does indeed heal Ken... Interesting. 236C/D: Doge spins around and moves forwards along the ground. Hits multiple times and launches a tiny bit on the last hit. As far as I can see, 236D seems to hit more times than 236C but this is unconfirmed. It definitely moves Doge further forward though. Really good for oki or cross up/through mixup. SB version untested 214C/D: Doge jumps and forms a giant super active hitbox of doom all the way until he hits the ground. Really good for corner pressure and starts decent combos. D version goes much further horizontally than the C version. SB version untested I still need to test some stuff with this. I saw it go through 2 invincible wake-up supers and 1 DP and just straight up CH the guy, it was pretty crazy but I don't know why it worked. 236236A/B: Ken spins his spear around a bunch. Has invincibility and a decent hitbox. Used as a wake-up DP or for damage I'd say. 236236C/D: Doge's persona shoots a bunch of fire that hits pretty much full screen. This move can be used in the air and has no invincibility. The fire hits almost full screen but comes from where Doge is standing. There was one point where this move whiffed because Doge was not on screen and the fire just went nowhere helpful. 214214A/B: Awakening super. Really cool animation and has pretty much the same use as 236236A/B. I think that's about it... A quick note on his auto-combo I guess... 5AA is pretty average. Will combo off 5A from any range. 5AAA also does 5C at the same time 5AAAA is 236A but can drop if done at max range 5AAAAA is the followup for 236A 5AAAAAA is 214214A/B. Because 5AAA uses Doge, you can't followup after the 236A~A unless Doge was busy at the time. Even then, you only really get 236D or 2C > j.B > j.2B ____________________ General combo theory seems like it will revolve around comboing into 2C and using a combination of j.B and j.2B to combo into knockdown or 2C for the re-launch. I feel like I might be able to find some 5B > 2B > IAD+5C > j.B > j.2B loops once I get training mode but this is pretty much what I was able to find in game. The easiest launch I found was something like ...> 236A~A > 2C > 66j.B. I want to experiment with 236A~A > 236D > IAD > late j.B > 2B > j.B stuff but wasn't able to get this happening in match. Once you've launched, you're really looking to knock down into 2C to re-launch and continue. I want to try comboing j.2B into 214C/D in future but I didn't find the timing unfortunately. If I can get that to work, I may be able to get a DP > 236236A/B or 214214A/B happening in the corner. So a full combo I found so far looked something like this: 5B > 236A~A > 2C > 669j.B > dj.B > j.2B > 2C > j.B > j.2B > oki Off throw seems to go into something like B+C > 2C > j.B > j.2B > 2C > j.B > j.2B > oki Random air hits can generally be confirmed into j.2B > 2C > j.B > etc Look pretty similar? That's because so far, everything seems to fall into jump loops... We'll see how this turns out with the ideas above. Ken can combo off his DP by cancelling into super (236236C/D only mid screen) and on CH he can link a 5A into j.A > j.B > j.2B if the DP carries to the corner. _________________________ That's about all I've got for now. I'll add stuff here if I can think of it. I don't know if anyone remembers me from Evo... I was playing mostly with Carl colours... About 6 foot tall white dude... Dark brown/black just above shoulder length (kinda messy) hair... Not the skinniest man around...

I don't really see any amazing uses for Shadow Berserk with s.Ken... None of his supers really allow any followup and his SB moves are pretty average aside from 236AB but I feel like it's not worth doing 236AB > OMC > 236AB > OMC > etc

Turns out I wasn't top 64 T__T People were telling me stream was top 32 but I guess not. Still happy with my first evo

Made it to EVO top 64 before I lost. Litchi represent! Congrats to the Litchi players that made it as far or further (or not as far even) as that though. Good stuff y'all

I'll be there but my carl isn't where I'd want him to be to play him in tourney

Because 300 damage worth of chip or barrier gauge is worth losing all of your oki. It's not like koko has a strong oki/mixup game anyway

You just have to release the button before she falls out of the combo. It's not possible with current setups to get a fully charged Giant Tager, you just get a mostly charged one...

Jiyuna round 1 Edit: I've been saved! Now playing SpinKing in R1... ah... damn...

Well... I guess I should get to learning this MU properly before Evo...

They're less likely to input the OS correctly for that one. In terms of beating it, you can always do a high/low mixup. 3C > 22B > 6B or 2B They can OS left and right, not high and low

Most characters with a DP will OS the 22B > 22C mixup though... Things like 421ABC with Ragna will give him either DP on crossup or barrier on non-crossup. Be wary of this.

I feel like it has something to do with how far your opponent is from the corner. The further they are, the more time it takes them to get to the wall and hence more time before they tech. Try swapping sides before doing the combo or pulled them in with 3C once or twice before starting. It's been a while since I did that challenge but I feel like that helped.

The EF combo off 2E can be timed in a way that it carries the opponent to the floor and gives you a knockdown into 214E on the floor which provides more mixup potential. 2E > jc > j.5D > j.B > j.C > j.E > j.B > dj.B > j.E > j.B > dj.B > j.E |> 214E or if you prefer 2E > jc > j.5D > j.BCEB > dj.BEB > dj.BE |> 214E Do I still notate them as dj.B if it's a triple jump? >__>

I threw a video together with the information in my post above. It's really just a visual demonstration of the mixups mentioned. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWega85fqdw&feature=youtu.be

I've been kind of using it but accounting for the fact that it's for vanilla. I assume some of it has changed but a lot of it I'm assuming is still the same. More than anything, it's the only place I can find 3C...

Did you really re-do my post to capitalise the start of my sentences? :P I was kind of just rambling on about stuff on my lunch break at work. That change from 9j.E to 8j.E is correct though. Silly me. I'll probably make some sort of video for all of these. I feel like they're fairly practical, just hard to explain. I'm fairly new to the game though so there's much to learn. On that note, people talk about 3C... it appears on the mizuumi wiki under frame data but not the move list and it just looks like 2C to me... Are there any differences between 2C and 3C?

Most popular setups are the following where X is nothing... or like... whatever you want A B C X D X X X or B C D X A X X X Personally I prefer the top setup but that's both due to personal preference and maining Carl for so long... Some people use buttons next to the bottom left button for taunt if you're using Tao or something... or just for swag. I personally prefer not using a single button macro for like throw, barrier, RC or OD just because it takes your hands off the buttons that matter. If you're pressing your designated barrier button and need to throw, you need to move your hand around to get to your throw button or back to BC.... not cool.

#TheStruggleIsReal If you're having any issues with specific setups or situations, let me know and I can help throw together some ideas as to how to respond to it.

"I need some real in depth koko info" *Looks back at Litchi vs Rachel thread* hhhhrrrrrrggghhhhh... This one's a little harder to break down because a lot of her stuff is more situational and not like... 5B happens, next up could be X, Y or Z... You need to consider where the 22B, 214X and gravitons are on the screen at all times to know her options... Also, I don't really play this MU at all, I just have a lot of experience with both characters. Let's start with some neutral stuff. 6A Don't mess with this. The best you can do is bait it out with a j.D which isn't so great due to you probably going staffless through most of this MU. Much like Rachel's don't try to double jump cancel it as she can just hold it or do another one on whiff. Avoid this as all costs 5A/2A stagger pressure This one hurts, I used it pretty effectively to open people up in my Koko days. She carries so much dash momentum that any micro-dash seems to keep her in range for another potentially 3 attacks and the threat of throw is really strong. Avoid this is possible via a well timed (double) backdash or DP. General gatling pressure Not as scary as it used to be now that her gatling options have been reduced a fair bit. 6B doesn't come out of nearly as many things so once you're through the 5A/2A part of things, you don't need to worry about the wrench overhead until the gatling starts again. This all gets a bit more scary once you have a graviton on you because anything jump cancellable turns into a relatively fast overhead j.2C > combo once you block j.2C you're in the clear as graviton will push you away... unless you're in the corner, in which case you should actually be OK to pressure as there's no stun on the graviton activation. Just don't underestimate this 50/50. 3C This move hurts people not used to the MU. It used to be -1 but now it's nerfed down to -3. Try to IB the 2nd hit and get pressure off this but watch for them cancelling the 1st hit into graviton as it can be a ghetto pressure reset if you're not expecting it and really sucks because now there's a graviton on you. Don't try to jump between 5C and 3C... you'll get hit. 6D > 214X These wonderful full screen fireball setups. Don't block them... that's just what they want you to do. Get out of there and/or try to hit them as they teleport to the fireball. For something so simple, there's so many ways this can be used. Be it to get it for pressure or to stay out/run away. Koko will probably do one of the following. 6D > 214X > teleport in - try to get pressure behind the fireball. Making her block makes the fireball go away but sometimes it's dangerous to try because the fireball hurts your face. 6D > 214X > wait - Koko waits to see what you do. If you run in at her, she may... - activate the graviton and start pressure, you can press buttons to CH her out of this. - activate and cancel into teleport to keep her run-away game up... nothing you can do about this really. Be happy she lost some graviton meter. If you stand and wait/run away she may... - Throw another fireball and/or re-set a 6D to keep up the fireball game. Use this time (especially when he does 214X again) to set your staff down - Set 22B to keep you out. Again, use this to set your staff down. I suggest 2D so you can send it off, run up and IAD back to set off trap and get in She can also do 6D > 214X > 22B This is super run-away mode and limits your options a lot. I recommend definitely not running at this one without staff support as you're going to get graviton activated into 22B range and potentially crossed up with teleport, at which point Koko can generally get a full combo... At best you can try to run up to and THROUGH the 22B range with help of the graviton speed to catch Koko off guard. Risky though... Your best bet here is to stand back and be ready to throw your staff to either stop the next fireball via block or CH... on CH you can go in, on block you need to keep up the long range pressure until 22B goes off and you can get in. In general, neutral here really sucks... Koko just has so much crap on the screen, it's hard to do anything to get in. I recommend playing most of the match in staffless mode due to the faster buttons and ability to stuff things with 5D/2D. Your extra range in staff mode won't really help you in a lot of cases here and the slower startup on moves will just get you stuffed a bunch. Access to a DP is nice but not getting put in pressure in the first place is preferred. Kokonoe's oki. This is where it gets fun... so you get hit, bad luck son, you're in for a ride. Let's start with corner setups since so many things are going to corner carry or side swap you straight to the corner. Keep in mind, I haven't played her personally since 1.0 but most of these setups are the same as before maybe with different combos into them... 6B(1) > 22B > 2A Combo ends after 6B, 2A will OTG you into a red combo if you don't tech or if you roll... Should also recover in time to block a DP... Both immediate and delayed techs will make you block lightning and. This one's nasty. It lets Koko go for a side-swap teleport mixup or a j.2C vs 2B high/low mixup... or 214X > 6D extended oki. Your best bet here is to block the initial lightning with 421ABD to OS the teleport mixup. You'll DP the cross-up or block the same side mixup. You still have to watch for the high in this situation though. If Koko goes for a fireball setup after this, you can still run the same OS to beat cross-ups but you need to watch out for the high/low and possibly a throw in between. This is the scariest oki due to the options she has... you'll need to look out here and just deal with it as it comes. 236B > 5C > 22B > 214A The old classic double projectile oki. Recovers in time to block DPs so like... don't. Another one you'll need to block (because Kokonoe) but not as scary as the one above as the 22C cross-up isn't as strong. Just look out for the j.2C timed so that the fireball carries the combo and a throw between projectiles. Patience is your friend. 236B > 214A > (5D/6D) General fireball pressure. No lightning here. This just kind of mixes things up a bit to keep you on your toes. There's more chance of throw early on here but you have more option to DP. Pretty much the same as before, just looks different. On the offense Just a short bit to run over offense against Kokonoe. Make sure you know anti-super ball combos for when you bait it out. For the most part, 6B > 6C (don't 66B, you won't get the CH) combos will push you out of fireball range. If not, work on CH 2C > 2D combos. 4/1ABX OS all the things. So many Kokos are really teleport happy. Lots of players don't know how to deal with it and they'll take advantage of this. Barrier OS a bunch to beat both super ball and teleport while keeping on pressure.