lofo

VIDEOS! david lynch video i mentioned http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKiIroiCvZ0 KLIFF COMBOZ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blwk6PVDkro

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blwk6PVDkro Kliff combos by JAKE vs FA throw, walk, 2S S-roar FRC 214K(whiff, corner carry) 5K 6P(charge) S-roar FRC 6H(full) 214K 2S 5H Reflex Roar dash 2S 5H 623H(1 hit) - 236 damage vs PO 5D airdash j.H(ID) 6P(charge) S-roar FRC 6H(full) 214K 2S 5H 623H(9 hits) - 244 damage vs TE *125% meter* throw 2S S-roar FRC 214K(whiff, corner carry) 2S S-roar FRC dash stun-slap *stun* dash 5K 6P(charge) S-roar FRC 6H(full) S-roar FRC 6H(full) 214K - ToD vs SO 214P~P RC dash 5K 6P S-roar FRC 6H(full) 214K (whiff) 2S S-roar - 280 damage vs HO *250% meter* lol

I feel most of the arguments in this thread really miss the mark. In my view it boils down like this. If this were in the arcade version (say it happened by holding respect), would we be having a discussion about banning it? No, of course not. We'd just say "deal with it," and adapt. The only reason this is an issue at all is because it's console-only. Does it warp the game enough to be worth talking about? Yeah, it seems to. The console versions always seem to have very minor differences, but this one is a big enough difference to be worth talking about. Is there a precedent for how to handle console-specific differences that warp the game? Yeah, the community bans them. Console GG has a bunch of weirdness and in all other cases (eg EX chars, alt modes, etc) they're just banned. Power is not really relevant, only that it's different from the arcade version. Surely no one is going to argue that in AC, EX Ky was more powerful than Testament and Eddie. I think arguing about how powerful macro Justice or whatever else is is a red herring. Honestly, my experience matches Rigel's and I agree with him entirely that she's not too powerful. Is it enforceable to ban macros? Yeah, it's pretty straightforward. You can outright disable it. Banning "only using macros for X,Y,Z" would be unenforceable, though. Banning it for only certain chars would be a nightmare and really can't be enforced. Consider a case where someone forgets to check for macros when button setting and then plays Baiken. Should that player be punished? How can you be sure whether it was intentional? What if they set macros, lose game 1, then switch to Baiken? Or if the person playing before them hands the stick and they don't even go to button config? It's not difficult to think up problematic scenarios like these. Given all that, it really seems like banning is the only consistent way to go.

GGs yesterday, all. shout outs to something. too tired to think of a thing right now

I'm ready to go whenever. Dev, let me know when you're up and ready.

Yeah the content to cruft ratio there is a bit absurd.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gca2gAUyybA that Ash video we were talking about

This is a pretty cool match. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLf9p2kaT2Q&t=9m10s

Dev might appreciate the first part of this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6LbNoL7k_M

Tested some stuff yesterday. Macro bug doesn't trigger Hellish Charge or FB Hellish charge, which makes sense since you'd accidentally neg edge it pretty often, I'd expect. Using turbo makes it seem like the window is pretty early, but doing 214 then doubletapping P doesn't get a slap, so it's definitely not in the first 2-3 frames. Also used macro bug to test punishing Kliff's 214S. As Ky, after whiffing IK to prevent FD, I used the macro to get reversal Stun Dipper (8f startup) and reversal S Vapour Thrust (9f startup). Only the Stun Dipper will punish. This matches what we'd previously done with ABA where her normal 2S could punish (with extreme difficulty) but her f.S could not. It's pretty clear that the -12 figure listed is incorrect. Also also, I'm the only one posting. Are there no others who are as passionate about Kliff!?

I don't want GG to be an 8 button game. Blah, this sucks.

I suspect it's being held up by Sony/Microsoft. Pushing patches is notoriously difficult on PSN and XBL. I'm not sure why the PSN push is taking so long to get here though, since it's obviously done and approved for the Japanese version and the other versions seem like they'd be basically the same. Maybe Arcsys wants to release it roughly simultaneously with the XBL version? I dunno.

If it doesn't get banned in tournaments, I will. I think it should definitely be banned, though.

Didn't realize JAKE had changed channels until today, I'd wondered why his stuff stopped showing up in my feed. Went through his recent videos for Kliff tech. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIzANLiQ1NM This is the property I mentioned in my previous post about charge moves turning around. A friend tested this and said it doesn't always turn around, and that it seems to be related to using a special? Was tested with I-No. If she jumps behind him and immediately does a note or dive, he'll turn around. Further, if she crosses him up with a dive he'll turn. He said it also works vs Chipp's crossup teleports, which might be useful. Seems like there might be more to this, because getting triggered by specials specifically would be a very strange property. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61qCTU5_o1Q Midscreen at point blank range vs crouching Johnny, P-Roar FRC FB-Slap. Looks like it needs to be point blank to work because the pushback of the P-Roar means the slap barely connects, but this wouldn't be an issue in the corner. Not sure how tight this is. Maybe it requires everything to be as early as possible. Might be a bit more lenient in the corner; if the wall prevents the pushback, you could do it from slightly farther away for more frame advantage. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hoxzpxggejk Random stuff. The dust combo (5D j.SH jc j.SH plunge) is what I've been using for the moment. I don't know if it works on every character, but I havn't had it drop vs anyone yet. I've generally seen Bob use a combo with less hits, not sure why. The combo at 0:27 looks useful. It's 2K 2D P-Roar FRC S-Roar FRC dash FB-Slap. Somewhat costly but it looks like a pretty easy confirm. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2bUbexqRfc Gold Burst (corner CH), OTG 2S S-Roar FRC dash FB slap RC IK. Seems like it's mashable but very difficult? I swear I tried that setup the first time I got a chance in training mode and it didn't stun, so idk what this is about. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCq_iKRDOlw Mostly j.D tricks, including the FDC float trick. Has a weird bit at 0:26 where he slashback cancels the beginning of an airdash and it makes the noise but doesn't move. I don't think it's useful but it's a thing that exists. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5ntWvtqAjY vs cornered Chipp, dash 2K c.S (combo counter resets) IAD j.KSH land dash 5K 6P (partial) S-Roar FRC 6H (full) [dizzies] Vault 2S S-Roar (340 damage + dizzy) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoctQMaAGW8 Impractical high damage combo, lol.

If someone hates Kliff's drill, is skeptical about the -12, and is keen to do some testing, the macro glitch should make it easy. ABA's 236S is different by 1f of startup across her modes (12/11/10), Bandit Revolver and Faust 236S are 9, Stun Dipper and level 3 Rock It are 8. What a useful glitch! @Livewire: Essay and Rigel have each been bringing theirs to meetups, but maybe we could use more? I dunno.

OK, I finished writing up some notes about moves so we can discuss and maybe bolster the wiki notes. Most of this is intended to be in addition to the current notes or some ideas to discuss. - Old Man is listed under weaknesses instead of strengths, a gross oversight! Caption under his portrait has his last name spelled wrong. 5P Does anyone do 5P dash 5P pressure anymore or did the 1.10 mobility nerf kill it? I havn't really incorporated this move into my pressure yet. When I do use it I mostly gatling into 5D or IAD after it. Might be worth mentioning that it's his fastest poke at 5f (tied with 2P and close S) 5K "Decent in combos since it launches opponents on ground hit." Pretty sure it always launches, not just ground hit. The only use at neutral I know for it is that it's quick and goes over slidehead. It's my move of choice for that. close S Not much to add here. far S I'd go so far as to call the hurtbox "excellent" but not much to add. 5H Can be useful to tech trap as well, particularly because it hits behind him. There are some spacings where you can trap with this and even if they land behind you you can continue pressure because they're forced to block it. I don't remember any specific setups for this off the top of my head though. Also useful in some combos after 2S to leave them in a tech trap in the air, but I'm not yet convinced that's stable. 6P IDK what this current description is talking about, combo to zugaisai (214S) is pretty bad. It's a solid anti-air, if a bit short ranged for a Kliff normal. I don't know of any reason not to combo into c.S, though maybe you can hitconfirm into S-Roar FRC on CH and avoid the scaling that 2S brings. It hits a bit behind him so it can't be avoided by aiming at his shoulder, which is reliable. General combo is probably 6P c.S 2S 214K or 236S (FRC etc with meter) but I guess that goes somewhere else. It has a long whiff, so getting baited is a concern. Sometimes gatling into c.S will drop if you hit them particularly high but w/e just don't do that or gatling into 5H. 6P (charge) Slightly better on hit, waaaaaaaayyyyy more whiff recovery. Doesn't gatling but you can basically do the same combo sans c.S so whatever. Useful in monster corner combos vs some chars! Strangely this (and 6H) will turn around when released sometimes (every time? havn't tested), which can catch people offguard. It seems to be a property of them being charge moves, but I'm not sure. IDK why the description for this and 6P have the frame data info listed. edit - I don't know what trap the current desc is talking about. 6P (full) Useful to to start a post-stun combo and that's about it. 6H Can catch Potemkin's backdash! Can trick people who forget it's an overhead or can't react in 28f! Can act as an idiocy test to tempt people into not blocking! Seriously though don't use this much at neutral, if at all. On hit cancel into 214S. On block cancel into P-Roar to make it safe. It can hit behind him and above him, but don't use it as anti-air because it has a large dead zone above him and isn't active there for long. (I wonder if there's some psych-out tricks to be had here with respect-cancel, like Faust's respect-cancel fake overhead. The sprite looks kind of similar to 6H at a glance) 6H (charge), 6H (full) Not much to add, desc has it covered 5D Amazing overhead. Its startup animation is exactly the same sprite as Kliff's crouch, so it's hard to react to, despite its slow startup. Does excellent damage and leads to an amazing knockdown and it's safe on block wow. Sneak it in after P-Roar 6FRC6, as a meaty, or after a pressure 5P. The stun notes on this are very important, hah. edit - This move has a strangely high hitbox that can cause it to whiff, notably vs the edge of Faust's crouching hurtbox. It also has some bizarre properties as a consequence of it being airborne. You can RC it late and tag with a j.S but it's difficult to do much with it outside j.drill.You can set up a jump install with 5P, (like 5P65D) which allows jump cancelling--I couldn't figure anything out off that--and air dashing, which forgoes the fast overhead for more stable pressure. Not sure this is worth doing but 5D is so good that there might be some worthwhile tricks in here. DAA Sprite is wrong? Kliff's DAA looks like his 5K I thought. I think the description underrates this. It's not awesome, and yeah it's missing startup invuln unlike every other DAA, but it has some perks. It's safe on block (-2!) and can't be low profiled, both coveted properties in a DAA. It might even be broken if it had real invuln along with those. It needs to be used carefully (and sparingly. Kliff's meter is valuable) but I think it's ok. 2P Does slightly more damage than 5P! Maybe this should be my go-to tick! Serioustalk the range sucks blah. Can this and/or 5P be low profiled? I should look into that. This move has the bizzare property of pulling back his hurtbox compared to his crouch sprite, which might have some uses but I don't know any. The hurtbox on both extends to the edge of his head. You can try mashing it and watch his sprite squish in, it's weird. 2K Surprisingly good range given its sprite. Pretty good low poke in strings, it gets the job done. Shrinks his hurtbox downwards slightly, which can low profile some stuff like Hammerfall. It's not much of a difference, but it somehow makes the difference and can sometimes dodge jumpins to net a throw punish. 2S Nothing to add really. Do people actually use this to dodge lows? I guess the bounce payoff is nice. 2H Noteworthy that the hurtbox is noticeably worse than f.S. Has pretty good range. I saw Inoue trapping people with having the edge of this blocked then going into 214K which scores a sweet knockdown, but it seems gimmicky and painful if it doesn't work. I've had some success with it but I expect folks to catch on. 2H (charge) 2H (full) Not much to add. Is it possible for them to time a burst such that the S-Roar just whiffs and they can punish you if you didn't FRC? 2D 7f sweep that hits extremely far away, this move is incredible. Quite possibly the best 2D in the game, and yeah I know about Sol's. Amazing punish, and cancel into P-Roar makes it plus on block, wow. I've been using 5H 2D as a burst-bait punish to stuff like DP whiffs, idk if there's a better option there but it works everywhere. Has some hurtbox weirdness where it slides forward when his body does, which can lead to bizarre interactions like dodging Axl's j.S by moving forward then hitting him in the legs as he's coming down. There are probably more tricks to be found with this move. j.P You can rapidfire it which can be useful to catch people jumping out of the corner, but it's otherwise not a great poke. Has an extremely thin (but reasonably long) hitbox so it can whiff in weird ways. This can be combined with the gatling out of j.K for some gimmicky setups, like IAD j.K-P (whiffs), land, throw into monster combo. His fastest air normal, for what that's worth (not much). j.K Not much to add here. j.S Fantastic air-to-air, great range off an IAD for punishing. Gatlings into j.H drill or j.H D-Roar. Hits behind him so you can do crossup tricks with it Gatling into j.H which also hits behind him, or cancel into j.41236S, or even jump cancel and do more tricks. j.H Better on CH than j.S because the untech means it will knock down. Otherwise not much to add. j.D Amazing hurtbox in the rare situation that you're actually lined up to hit something with this. It can smack Ky while he's hiding behind a j.214D, for example (before getting hit). Horribly unsafe on block or whiff. You can use it as a high risk rebuy at the end of air strings or FRC it in that situation for an instant teleport to the ground into a throw. Gimmicks! It has some limited combo uses, but overall not particularly useful. Throw Pretty awesome. Decent range for punishing, particularly if they whiff vs one of your weirdo hurtboxes. Goes into decent combo at midscreen or death combo in the corner with meter. On defense it seems worthwhile to OS with 6S+H to aim to throw them into the corner while avoiding that horrible 6H whiff. On offense you'll want 4H, again for the corner, and because 5H isn't that bad as far as throw whiffs go. Airthrow Not much to add. Probably his best airthrow OS is j.6P+H, but given its range and potentially high payoff, maybe it's worthwhile to just OS every air normal you do with this. P-Roar, S-Roar Not much to add. Drill Not as safe as some would have you believe! Most chars can punish this even at a decent range with a reasonably ranged poke (often 5K), but it's mysteriously hard so people tend to drop it. As a result, some try to go for a throw punish, so look to jump out for that. Has pretty good range, decent startup and an excellent hurtbox (it starts at his shoulder) so it can go through lots of stuff and is sometimes useful as a punish. At point blank can RC into falling j.P (char specific but no proration) or j.K (a bit tighter) to start a combo with the guardbar you just built, but it's very gimmicky and people tend to block this high anyways for some reason. Maybe because it looks airborne? RC into low will often hit but it's very expensive and gimmicky. j.Drill TK drill is a bit slower but notably safer than the ground version. Spaced well, it's very difficult to punish. Unfortunately it also has a blowback effect on hit, so the payoff is noticeably lower outside the corner and even oki is difficult. Do not use this move as an air poke, it will get you killed and the payoff isn't even good. (Speaking of which, I'm pretty sure this has CH recovery at least until Kliff hits the ground, but that's unlisted in the frame data) Sword Vault Not sure how useful this is as a punish, since it's slow, but it does have some tricks. Hitting with the very end gives and incredibly good knockdown, enough to do weird crossup stuff. Has a setup with 2H mentioned above, has some combo uses, and generally decent for just moving around the screen to compensate for Kliff's otherwise mediocre mobility. Scale Ripper (aka SWISS CHEESE!!) Our local crew gets incredibly hype about this move, you have no idea. Can be used to call out poorly timed meaties, which is more common than you might expect because Kliff's size means it takes longer to reach him. The 1.10 speed nerf is a bit sad though. Has a bunch of wonky properties, like vacuuming them back in after teching and moving TOWARDS them if they FD it while blocking it from behind you. Must be FDed in the air, so sometimes you can grind people against the wall if they tech wrong and unblockable reset them. Some people don't get this move and will just get reset over and over so it can be worthwhile to test people with it to check if they know. If you get hit by this, just tech and hold FD until you see yourself touch the ground. Trust me. Sen no Sen (stance) Not much to add. This move seems incredible when you start and gets less impressive as time goes. Try not to abuse it so you have it ready when it's time for stun slap combos. Still has some useful dodge applications though. Hellish Charge ("Slap!") Pretty unsafe on block so be careful. I don't think the combo into throw is guaranteed. A local guy often mashes out of the stagger like a fiend when I do it and then techs or jumps out of the throw, and I've seen similarly in match vids. I've also seen Bob RCing it on hit which suggests it's really not reliable. I think it'll really drop off in use when people wake up to it. Still useful on CH and air hit though. The Plunge (j.41236S) Should be used with care while high up IMO, because at close range they can cross under you leading to a horribly unsafe drill, and at far range they can dodge out of the way, hop over the wave and punish the relatively long recovery. It's still an awesome move, but these risks are worth noting. Taunt Reminder that, as a taunt, it gives your opponent meter! This move is missing from the frame data section btw. The regular letters do 8 damage, the big ン does 32. This move is different on p1 side than p2 side because the big ン always appears on the right side! FB Hellish Charge (Slap Chop! We're going to make America dizzy again!) Not much to add ok. FB Roar Not much to add. Reflex Roar Holy hell this move is amazing. In some matchups (*cough* Justice) it's worth stockpiling meter just for this. It has some weirdness where it hits full screen, but if it passes through some fireballs on the way there, sometimes it won't hit full screen. Not sure what that's about, maybe some slowdown from passing through fireballs or something? Sole Survivor This move is super random, I've done it on wakeup and had it throw them behind me on the first couple hits then have it be unsafe on hit. Still pretty good but be careful. IK, Pulverizing Dragon's Roar Dragons are cool and the name is awesome but this IK sucks. The activation is 100f and it has a dumb pose so it's not even useful as a post-round taunt. The dragons are poorly animated so it doesn't even look that cool and Kliff can already do a quadrillion damage if he has time to prepare so it's basically useless. It might be usable in a corner FB slap situation where you RC, activate then yell DOUBLE DRAGOOOOOOOOOOON as loud as possible but sadly I think even that's mashable.

Whoa you turned from a robot into a pirate! Tangentially related, here is some old May caramell dansen thing I have in my nico favourites. Remember when that was a thing? God, I feel old. http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm7076005 Oh, I think Dev was talking about switching to running on Friday nights at some point? I don't remember what the plan is.

Justice missiles are 4 hits and SB disables your block for a bit when used, so this sounds like the result of SBing one of the middle hits. The same thing can happen trying to SB something like Axl's rensen. @Amadeous: It still uses up the burst though, right? Sounds pretty costly. @this thread: Is this on hold for now? Seems like there's not much activity, but I guess we're all still figuring things out.

Shout outs to Ian bodying me in that long set, oh my god. I am studying hard now. Will you be at gonq on thurs? I really want to get another set in before you leave. Ideally early in the night so I'm not too tired to jump out of OHK :P

I definitely sympathize with kirbster here. Teams are cool and funhype, but one of the big draws of fighting games, for me, is relying entirely on myself. When it's serious time, I want singles.

Thanks, Circuitous. I think I understand now. Maybe I'm wrong about it being able to fail on first use, I havn't had a chance to test it properly. It adding a bit of stun explains why it can often fail on second use if you're taking damage, though. I assume (5) only applies when (4) is triggered. On the subject of Kliff's frame data, there are a few oddities. His 2P is listed as having 5 startup, 6 active, 0 recovery, 0 SD, which doesn't add up. Based on #R data I suspect it's supposed to be 5/4/6/0, but I am not sure so I didn't change it. His 214P says it can cancel into followups from the first frame, but I couldn't get 214P~D to work with an extremely fast input. I tried it many times with input display to confirm it was clean. I didn't test 214 then doubletap P because I didn't think of it, blah, but I'll try to test it next time I have a chance for more data. This is kind of a shame because with frame 1 cancel, that'd make the fastest 214P~D hit in 23f, and I had some combo ideas for that. Seems like it really only works off cornered S-Roar FRC though, blah. I mostly noticed this while trying to dodge through and punish I-No's Longing Desperation in reaction to the flash. It's 7+2/20/10/+1, so it should be easy, but I couldn't get it to work. The ver 1.10 changes don't seem to be completely applied, if at all. The relevant changes, for reference, are - c.S * Slower activation - 6HS * Has initial prorate - 5D * Increased recovery - 2HS * Faster activation - 2[HS] (Charged) * Reduced recovery - 2[HS] (Full charge) * Reduced recovery * Level increased - 2D * Level decreased - Zukaisai (air version) (j.214S) * Reduced untechable time - Koke Hagashi (623HS) * Slower activation - FB Houkou Gaeshi (j.236D) * Increased untechable time Not really sure what to do about this, since the specific change is not listed. It seems like it'd be difficult to figure it out exactly. This last one is pure speculation. His 214S (ground version) is listed as -12, but in practice it seems safer than that. In theory it should be pretty easy to hit it back with a 7f normal, but it's tricky. I suspect it might be because it has unusual hitstop, which gives it an unintuitive timing, but I'm not sure. Fiddling with it, there seemed to be at least a couple frames lenience in punishes, judging by different heights Kliff can be at when the punish hits him. In #R it was only -10 (23f recovery) which is about what it feels like now, so I wonder if there's a typo somewhere. It'd match my experience if that were the case. I have some thoughts on the writing in his char profile, but maybe it's best if we discuss it instead of me just editting it, and this post is already long enough.

Shout outs to the longest GG session ever. Thanks to everyone who put up with sleep dep lofo <3

If the 360 port for +R isn't out by mid-2014 I will be crying

Sweet, sounds like we're going to get a pretty good thursday crew for GG. ^_^ @Rigel: Are we starting at the usual time tomorrow?

GGs all! Shout outs to Psykotik's sick slashbacks and to Verbal for his cool posts.