fogelstrom

We should start refraining from statements such as "pretty sure" and actually get down to brass tax and test/check things thoroughly. The combo should be listed with 0 RISC and from full hp and on 1.00 defense characters, such as it always is. Doing UP on block with FD will give you 0 RISC when starting the combo. I don't see why you need to do j.SKD on Zato instead? I haven't experienced any issues doing combos on him. Faust on the other hand... I assume j.SKD is to make him not float as much? That's where my issue lies with Faust.

Sin is -3 on his 5D so there's nothing you can do to punish unless you IB and are in range for 2K. His normals reach far but you can 6P through f.S and uncharged 236HS. Dandy during your pressure is great vs Sin though if they use alot of normals because he lacks active frames on a lot of various moves. However 236K is annoying to deal with. Try to look for what the Sin player does after 236K. It's plus on block but if they always go for 236H there is a gap. You can backdash this or just block and force them to use more food. The latter tactic I use more often because when a Sin has no food Sin has nothing. He's forced to back off and he has to be very wary of K Mappa that you can easily use to score a CH and RC for easy dmg. His jumpins aren't really great and you should easily be able to 6P or 5P AA. I don't know most Sin player just play really bad at the moment and flowchart like hell. I kinda relax because doing dumb stuff is going to get you killed. Most Sin player basically has zero mixup and rely on you pressing buttons at stupid times. Sin gets rather high dmg easy for barely anything so it doesn't take much. Therefore I feel defense is key in this matchup at this point in the game. On oki if they use alot of shoryu it has minimal horizontal range so bait it and punish accordingly. Hard to give specific advice not seeing you play and against what kind of Sin.

I did a few attempts at K PB CH but 5HS was really difficult to combo after on Leo/Sol weight so f.S, c.S was alot easier. Ended up with exact same dmg as CWH, 6HS; UP though and meter same since it's RC. But going straight for UP after It's Late CH midscreen is probably the best for consistency as you said earlier. I played a few matches and doing 6HS, UP after you end up with f.S more than c.S so it's not worth the drop. Can't you do CH It's Late, 6HS, P/K CWH and loop? I didn't have time to try it out. I like playing matches more than training ^^ But I noted that CH It's Late midscreen I'm quite lacking so I need to sit down with it.

Oh I missed that it's 5 hits grounded so you can actually add the same air combo. So slight favour. I agree with the above except for 2S AA because CH confirming. Maybe you can get awesome at it but just going for the air variation is a simple solution that I'll prefer for the forseable future at least. Regarding K Dandy PB on CH I can see that CWH could be better rather than lifting with c.S, f.S straight into air juggle or 5HS into air juggle. Mostly for the added meter though. It seem to mostly boil down to what you wanna do and prefer. I really like having the same combo with slight variations rather than having to go "oh this is a cwh loop moment". Same reason I didn't employ j.SHD, dj.P/K combos into my play. If Hase starts doing mainly CWH loops I'll re-think! But it's a nice discussion and very welcomed. It's nice to see some more in-depth checking about this.

PB, RC, CWH, 6HS, UP, c.S, j.SHD - 212dmg PB, RC, 6HS, UP, c.S, j.SHD, j.2K, j.PK, dj.KD - 220dmg. You can let me know your It's Late CWH loop as well and I can do a normal combo after that to check. I also tried to substitute UP with CWH and followups but still less dmg and sometimes not even knockdown depending on air variation. CWH is always going to win the meter gain when RC is not involved anyway. But for RC combos when the meter gain is on cooldown it ends up roughly the same. The difference is about 15% in meter in CWH favour when you can do the loop without RC. Tried on 2S CH. The damage difference was 4 dmg also in CWH favour. But you need to be able to know it's CH or you'll dandy and get nothing.

Yes I know. I've done CWH loops in training and compared them with regular air juggle combos and the latter still win in terms of execution and damage. I'd assume the loops becomes alot easier with time and more training but even so that wouldn't justify me changing bnb's and lowering my damage. Still if people wanna do CWH loops and prefer that it's all the same to me. I'm not telling people how to play just that CWH loops isn't the only way to go and the reasoning behind me not using them at all. Yeah but mostly at any point you can go into the CWH loop is generally at points where you'd still get alot of damage anyway. You're probably right that in certain situations it could be optimal damage. I have indeed not tried everything out just for bnb's and situations that tend to happen on a fairly regular basis. I'll compare the corner dmg for raw CWH/PB and edit. I'll also check the meter gain.

My biggest issue is that's it's difficult AND not optimal dmg wise hence I render it obsolete and for that reason totally excluded from my game. Still, it's up to anyone if they wanna use CWH loops but I don't see any actual good reason to use it besides looks. Even though I think CWH loops looks like crap and air combos look good

The data on Dustloop wiki copied from 4gamer says +3 anyway. But then I know about the gatling stuff. If I'd get blown up between move->6HS I'd probably crunch the numbers myself but at this point it's not an major issue for me at least.

Yeah without any prorate for the grab it's actually useful with 6D. I'd bet the damage would be even better if you did; Bite RC, 6D, 5HS, 5HS, 2HS, c.S (JI), sj.SHD, j.PK, dj.KD. In my head it should be possible at least. (Except on Millia, Elphelt and who else c.S doesn't work on). Also at this point even 2-hit DHD might be quite good. Don't forget any bite combo you could say has 80% forced prorate since you have to RRC it anyway. I just don't see the use for CWH loops when they are specific in contrast to just doing normal air combos. If you like swag perhaps and I haven't checked if there's any difference in meter gain. But the damage is still less for any normal combo that me and my friends have compared with.

5K is +3 on block. That doesn't affect? I'm bad at everything related to frame data and mechanics hah. Also Slayer is a counter hit fishing character so it's just natural. Sometimes you even need to increase the gap to make people hit buttons! But the gaps are good to know none the less

Personally I don't use CWH loops and me and a friend have went over it and can't see a reason to use it over standard combos really. But you yourself do what you feel like. Everything should be in the first post so I'm not sure what you're not finding. For Bite RC if it's midscreen you barely get anything. I'd assume 6HS PB might work? I just never RC midscreen. 5HS, Mappa should work otherwise. In corner you can do Bite RC 6D. Don't know the damage but it's 150-160. It's possible against quickest recovery possible.

You can even combo j.H, 2K, 2D on Faust if it's meaty. I've done it several times but then again I do Helter Skelter hella early and it's really not unheard of me getting grabbed out of it or even 2P mashed out of it. I take my trusty shalt shaker and just slams it down into the floor. Who the hell grabs Helter Skelter anyway... For sh!ts and giggles if you play against Pot you can do c.S, f.S, j.D, DHD on him crouching. It's easy and fast solid damage. Helter Skelter, DHD on oki is also good if people are kinda low on hp and you wanna steal that burst.

Finishing a game with IK is awesome. I compiled some basic sh!t so I hope people will do it more often rather than on just stun. Note this is just an outline really but the 2K, Mappa, RC and Bite RC are REALLY valid! http://youtu.be/tlKt_rMs8P8

Another new video. I rather only post vids of me doing 1on1 sessions with people. Cutting and editing wins/losses from stream archives sucks so that's why I don't really get loads of vids. But hey, it's alot more hours than anyone else is posting! Where you all at?! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RssUh2wfKIA Getting bodied these matches though. Shinjin leveled up alot and it was a though matchup to begin with. I also tried ALOT of Blitzing to get experience with it so seemingly I don't block alot on wakeup...

This all have already been dealt with in the general gameplay thread as where this should go as it barely constitues as combos anyway. But yeah that's the baseline for playing Slayer in Xrd. Also on hit with Helter Skelter you can do j.H, c.S, f.S, 2D on some characters like Ky. I don't have a list of it.

The 3 first are basically everything you need. Though Helter Skelter should only be used sparingly imo. I do c.S, f.S outside throw range as well for meaty just so things look different and keep people on their toes. After f.S you are +6 on block so you can do basically anything you'd like there. If you do Under Pressure to un-meaty It's Late to blow up throws you can be beaten by mashers. If they only mash start mixing in meaty It's Late instead to make them stop. DP you have to bait, that's just life. But focus if they actually ever get reversal, if not use c.S, f.S as meaty and they'll just get hit for not being able to reversal properly. For consistency on the meaty It's Late, 2K link you just have to play alot and practice. The wakeup time on characers vary by 10F so you just have to learn how to time it on each character. It's hard to get down consistent. I rarely use meaty because everyone is always mashing grabs but if they start mashing normals I just speed up my un-meaty and mostly get CH. I personally never use 6K unless I get major respect and most often after either a blocked 2K or f.S since you are +4 and +6. Slayer has safe jumps but they just don't fit in with his other tools that stem from dandy really.

Can't you use 5P instead? I couldn't hit c.S on Millia but 5P worked. You are forced to follow up with j.P though.

That's just mean! Probably does work ^^; Dunno if I'd be willing to spend the meter regardless. Maybe if it was for the win. Might be worth trying out.

2S, j.SHD... also works fine if you know how to delay your attacks to gain favorable height in combos. But as others have said 2S is kinda only useful if people are coming straight from above and have used their doublejump and got nowhere to go. Don't forget 5P AA as you can link 5P CH into 6HS.

Yeah Under Pressure whiff 2K, c.S, 2D is about the best thing to happen to me. It's a bit wonky at the start but it's a link that that hit-confirmable to 2D and though not as good as 2K, 2S, 2D it's at least something. Fyi you can do 2K, c.S, f.S, j.D, DHD on Sol, Zato, Ramlethal and Bedman. For the Zato matchup I REALLY welcome this as an easy mean to break out some much needed damage from any hit possible.

I feel your pain but I don't think the advice given is really that solid, no offense Moral and Hazard but I just feel that you are making out the problem too light. If you stand outside throw range to not get thrown and do meatys you will still loose to VV. It's ALWAYS going to be a gamble versus Sol. And if your oki isn't a gamble that means you are giving up the oki and Sol doesn't have to worry about knockdown. I personally use un-meaty It's Late to blow up throws. But when you do this setup you whiff an Under Pressure in their face. And they have no way of knowing if you are going to do nothing, It's Late, 2K or throw yourself. 3 of these options can and will get you thrown vs mashers and the other beats that. So what do you do? Well since I overly use above mentioned oki the best I can do is to whiff Under Pressure and do a backdash. Obviously I give up my oki and at times this sucks but I feel somewhat confident in the neutral that I can live with it. Most Sol players cut it out after you bait and punish a few times. Not everyone is so bright however. You CAN safejump as Nasu has shown us. On knockdown he does straight jump something and can block if the shoryu but it looks terrible for any other purpose. Other than that this isn't SF4 so it's all about reads and call outs. Main point is that this is an issue though mostly on higher level play the Sol player is always way less hesitant to VV on wakeups due to what would happen if baited. I mean if you bait on and have good reactions you can CWH punish it for what 200dmg? Half an life bar for a gamble 2 of those and he's out.

I think that might be Zato specific. He gets 2-hitted alot by DHD for some reason. Also at very close range you could probably land and do c.S, j.SHD, j.2K, j.K, dj.SHD, j.2K, j.PD for around the same dmg meterless. Since it's 2-hit DHD it's alot of dmg... But it's fancy killing stuff!

You can't do do dj.SHD after j.2K and RC earlier in the combo. It's too little hitstun from j.S to j.H. When I do xx, 236K, RC combos I always have to do j.PK, dj.KD. But for what Angry said it also depends on character weight. I'm not going to list every variation but you can input everything as fast as possible for light characters without anything getting f-ed up. When I combo Sol, Axl, Venom, Sin, Leo and Slayer I use c.S instead of 5HS because of consistency and I can then input the air combo without any delays. If you use 5HS you need to first delay the first j.S slightly and then the first j.D slightly. This will improve your consistency. Does not apply to Bedman, Pot and Faust. I was ready to quit Slayer because of his damn air combos but once you learn the timing and understand why combos work and don't everything gets easy. But I'm a bit complacent and for this reason I give up dmg for consistency. I was just fooling around vs Axl and the difference between c.S and 5HS combo was 14dmg for example. This is quite the amount I cut out on mid characters. Just something to think about when you practice.

It has poor range so you can basically stand outside throw range and it will wiff. Then it's easy punish with whatever you can muster but my point was just on hit from reversal I don't think it's weak. I use ALOT of It's Late un-meaty on oki to blow up throw mashers so reversal are effective against my playstyle. So versus Sin it's a gamble. But if they 623S alot you got easy countermeasurments.

Well you're using an awkward un-optimal combo. I'd just go with the standard j.2K combo instead. It's already been proven consistent. That's probably the best advice I can give. Also with RC the hitstun is horrible so you can't do alot of fancy stuff.