chzchan

Characters with relatively fast FC starters will benefit hugely from this if they know their opponent's frame data, specifically recovery, really well. Actually I may be wrong because I'm not sure if there are any FC moves that would start up fast enough. I guess that really depends on the active frames and recovery of the move that the opponent uses in pressure, though. Like there are some bomb ass times to use ODR against certain characters. After the first hit of Ragna's 5D for example because the move has a total 29 frames of recovery. You would have to delay it slightly so the 7 frames of invuln you get allow the second hit of 5D to pass right through you. I guess he can special cancel it early so welp. Maybe just after any character with a run type dashs' 5/2A if you KNOW you screwed up on the wrong end of a TRM setup you can just ODR the jab that you already pressed B+C at expecting an initial throw and punish the opponent's follow up throw when it whiffs through the OD invuln frames. I already punish wakeup grabs with raw OD if I am feeling super ballsy, but ODR will make it so that I can punish TRM if I am correct in all of this. Not sure if I am though. It's really funny because if you grab them after they whiff a grab they will be in TRM state. What are the places you are expecting to be ODR'd out of?

Actually this brings up something that might be lost with the switch over to ODR unless it has some other sort of command besides A+B+C+D. I mean it actually is sometimes an okay idea to burst out of blocking stuff if you don't have 50 heat to Counter Assault. Amane is the best example of this. Especially when he does Drill > OD > Drill > RC > Drill. That shit is terrifying. I hope that it gets a new command like 4A+B+C+D.

I swear I'm not actively trying to make this [CP] Tsubaki Complaints and Whining 2.0. I just wanted to discuss the nature of OD and its utility on different characters. I could have brought up other characters as examples, but she just happens to be the character I know the best relatively. I wanted to try and segue it into a discussion about how the new ODR and OD DDs will affect the worth of OD when put on a balance with Burst, but I fell asleep before I submitted that post and my phone ran out of battery. I guess I just should stop even bringing her up here if things are going to turn out like this.

See but not all ODs expand on the capabilities of the character'a drive alone or just some frame data here and there. You have ODs like Tao's that give her both insane pressure on top of the insane pressure she already has as well as some extra combo damage. This is not achieved by augmenting her drive in any way, but instead recycling her DD from CS that adds an extra delayed attack. Same thing with Bang, though his is pretty tied to his drive, a lot of the benefits he gains are not just simple drive attack buffs. Still a recycled DD though. All of the characters with special meters or resources generally just end up getting more of those with their OD, so the strength of OD is determined by the strength of the characters when they have maximum resources or a nearly endless supply. This is where the fatal flaw for Tsubaki is because even at max resources she really isn't that threatening or powerful compared to other characters with max/endless resources. The reason why her Mugen DD is strong isn't because she can do a bunch of drive specials in a row, it is because she gets 110% bonus proration on all drive attacks used. I hope that the devs realize this and adjust accordingly in the future not just for Tsubaki but for other characters who suffer from sucktastic OD as well. I believe ODs should at least be more creative and not just be extensions of the drive or drive resources.

It could be better if her D specials were actually good. I think what they were going for with the faster recovery while in OD is doing safe-ish charge cancel pressure in order to fill up her meter all the way with the increased rate from the cancel, but not only is that not worth it compared to a burst, it is not worth it from what you could be getting from doing a combo. It might just be a "well you screwed up this combo so at least you have some kind of thing to fall back on but not really" kind of thing, but I don't know. Her OD is just executed so horribly at least compared to some other characters' ODs. Like Ragna's for example, even though it is just Blood Kain minus the health drain, changes the properties of all of his drive moves and specials which allows for new combo routes that lead to both higher damage as well as greater combo-ending health gain. I will admit that some characters have even worse ODs, though. I'm hoping that all the buffs/changes to OD DDs in 2.0 and hopefully specific ODs with some stealthy undocumented changes will make OD as an option more promising in the eyes of characters that have really terrible ODs.

Well right now, at least from my point of view however wrong it may be, the way his counters are divided right now are like this: 5D is for catching jump ins and attacks that can be delayed or are slow. Maybe overheads that need to be used raw or gatling out of jabs can be dealt with but it depends because 6f startup. Loses to lows. 2D is for lows, but can be used to punish opponents' attempts at frame trapping because of 1f startup as well as mid and low meaties on wakeup. Loses to overheads. 6D is for catching the opponent trying to punish you for doing something unsafe while keeping yourself from being punished because of this move's 6f recovery, but it loses to lows to it gets blown up by 2A attacks with low attributes even if you call the opponent on mashing. Should never be used raw because of ridiculously long startup. j.D is really all purpose and catches everything that happens to hit it and has a ridiculous hitbox when the catch activates. Not sure exactly what the downside of it is aside from requiring jump startup if you are on the ground. It has less recovery than 2D. I think it gets the least potential damage maybe? 236236D is the real all around one, though. It makes it so that the opponent can no longer rely on meaty overheads, but it can be called. If 6D were made to be 1f then it would need to be given back the longer standard recovery it had in CS though I really don't think Hakumen players would mind that. It could probably just be a mirror of 2D if you really want. 1f startup with 30f of recovery. Its active frames would need to be cut in half as well. It could also just be reverted. The way the 2.0 changes look for him just seem like they are messing around with his offensive and combo options rather than defensive ones.

Ah I was more thinking along the lines of if you hit both of them at the same time by looking for a good opening when he isn't jumping over you. It knocks him away and puts the doll away. Extra points if you forced the doll away after blocking a bunch of mixups which leaves his meter almost empty when the doll disappears. And yeah the wiki being incomplete is why I still don't quite understand how the superarmor works. I guess I'll just have to get a feel for it eventually or pick up Relius for a bit just for the sake of bettering my one and only Tsubaki. It's jump cancellable, right? Well it won't be in 2.0 if they don't roll back that change, but yeah knowing jump cancellable moves helps when deciding when to burst, especially if your opponent has less than 50 meter. Actually, now that I have looked over other characters' frame data a bit more, low attacks that are jump cancellable with startup as fast as Relius's 3C are actually pretty rare.

After reading and thinking about it for a bit, using counter assaults in this matchup is a really good way of getting the doll to go away. It only has superarmor during that distortion, right? Or actually how does Ignis superarmor work?

Wait so what is an archetype? Like the way they generally play as a person instead of a character?

Not sure if it is the smartest thing to do, but using 22B a lot sort of helps. I did a lot of 5B/C > 6C one round against a pretty great Jamaican Tager and I caught him trying to 360 me after an IB in the second round expecting me to take the step forward from 6C and I got a delicious CH 22B instead by slightly delaying it. You legit cannot do anything about it so you just don't let it happen. You are at their mercy if they happen to pull it off because you cannot tech out of it so long as they science you correctly to orbit them. I had a pretty good Tager at Anime Expo do that to me and a few of my friends and I laughed heartily even though I was crying on the inside. It isn't a Tsubaki specific problem though. I've always wondered if it was possible to time people out if you have a health lead as Tager by doing that trick if you are truly skilled enough. It is just so dirty. You can't even burst out of it.

That can be prevented by jump barrier. I wish the gap between 5C/5B > 6C was only 3-4 frames. Maybe that's one of those incredibly subtle changes in the loketest that nobody noticed that was given to 6C in exchange for its jump cancellability on block. Aside from 5BB(delay), all of these frame traps that can be used to catch jump startup move you farther away from your opponent.

Assuming you are in range is the key thing though.

I never have much of a problem with mashing if people do mash while I am applying pressure. What I really can't deal with is people jumping out. The 5B > 6B example is incredibly easy to jump out of even if they barrier the first hit. Is there any way to prevent people from jumping without IAD and hard calling it? It takes many years to actually catch people and keep them on the ground where Tsubaki's main pressure game is and they are able to get out so easily without much effort or being forced to block any high/lows because they have such terrible range. The way to deal with Tsubaki pressure is barrier the first hit or two and then jump barrier. If you see Tsubaki charge cancel, all you need to do is jump. You can mix it up too because if Tsubaki tries to call out the jump out you can AA or DP her. Or you can just hang back and run away once the grab whiffs over your head. As for Tager I just do lots of 5B > 6C because that is what I see other Tsubaki players do even though I don't really know how truly safe it is. I have also tried doing a lot of multi jump attack pressure using j.D in between jumping attacks to extend pressure while you are in the air so you can't be 360'd. It catches Tager players pretty often if they think you're going to hop to the ground and you j.D and stay in the air for a bit longer than they expected. I rarely see them using atomic collider while in pressure so you should be safe maybe.

I'd actually really like that QOL change, but for the wrong reasons. It would make it so that even if I start choking during simply running my game I would still do flawless charge cancels. It would be pretty handy in netplay.

Actually, after trying it at the LA county fair today, I would say her game's more like chocolate covered bacon. You know exactly what you are in for and how bad it is for you when you decide to eat it, but you do it anyway and then the suffering hits immediately and you ask yourself who in the right mind would ever think this is a good idea but keep eating. Ten years later you start thinking "If I keep this up I'm probably going to end up killing myself" but you continue to eat. Now lying on your death bed at age 30 you are watching some videos of Konan and Kuresu horking the stuff down by the handful without so much as clogging an artery or showing signs of fatigue and it hits you. You had thought it was the bacon's fault for your entire life but you realize that it was actually your own. With a body not fit for the kind of abuse making this decison entailed you curse yourself for not knowing you would not be able to handle it all those years ago.

Well our 3C has like 10, so I would think it would trade at the least. Hell, our 236C and 236D both have 10 and I FC the hell out of other Tsubakis when I use 3C. It might be the structure of the hitboxes but I think I'm just getting unlucky.

Started to test out how effective being patient in this matchup is and I realize now that it isn't a good idea. He gets so much heat off of you just blocking is ridiculous. I need to start learning to instant block everything because his +2 on block 8f startup 5B is starting to irritate me. I just found out today that he can vaporize your projectiles with his j.D and 5D. I don't know why it took me this long to realize it. Also something that has been happening quite is often Terumi's 236D not Hell's Fang hitting me out of 3C without trading and at least giving me the fatal. I don't know if it actually consistently happens or I am just really unlucky, but it is really frustrating when it does.

My feelings on the Jin matchup is that you can at least charge in neutral and not have to spend the entire round trying to catch him due to superior movement options and projectiles in your face. Fighting Jin is frustrating for everyone, and, even though the matchup is definitely not in Tsubaki's favor, it is not her worst matchup by far. Bang, Hakumen, Mu-12, Nu-13, and Litchi is where it's at. Especially Bang.

Yeah I understand that. I guess they really shouldn't touch her charge cancel system.

I don't think it would kill our neutral, but I am not 100% sure on how charge canceling actually works frame data calculation-wise. I guess I think I understand now, though. It really does only take attack level into account, so I am completely wrong in every way with what I am asking. I just did the calculation after Airk pointed it out. It really is just (blockstun) - (18f) is the charge cancel value. Whoops. They'd need to make it attack level 4 like 5CC or 6B in order to even get it to leave her at 0 frame advantage. Whatever I'm just going to keep dreaming that in 2.0 they do a stealth change that gives 2D 16f of recovery at the cost of a slightly slower charge rate or like no increased charge rate on cancel or some shit because that could also be adjusted. I guess that would be a blanket buff to all her normals, though I wouldn't mind.

She has a lot of practical options and a lot of potential options, but I would say that pretty much all of them are garbage compared to most characters' or at least Tsubaki has to work much harder to get them to look like they work so that the opponent respects them. Other characters also happen to maintain a lot of their defensive options when up against Tsubaki which is one of the things that makes it hard to win. You need the right type of respect/disrespect in the right places at the right times for her pressure to even keep people on the ground. I just want her to be scary is all. She isn't scary enough. She isn't scary at all.

It seems sort of strange that they would let Carl be the only character in the game with an OD only distortion outside of unlimited. I'm guessing they didn't do this with Ragna's 214214D because nobody is allowed to have less than 2 distortions and they ripped Blood Kain away from being a distortion to make it Ragna's shiny new OD.

The one where the wave of drills fly across the screen is pretty neat when combined with the fag hop so that it scales the screen. His reversal super is also pretty great too, but, just like Azrael's Scud Punishment, it already has a sort of slightly different but barely stronger OD version, mostly because of having level 3 drills already. I really wonder what they're going to do with distortions that already have a special OD version, especially for characters that have OD versions for both/all of their DDs already, like Kagura or Azrael. As seen in the TGS stream where they had the VA fight, Azrael's Scud Punishment now causes wallbounce instead of stagger, so maybe the OD version will have the old 1.1 stagger properties on top of better damage. Also as some clarification for Lambda notes from the TGS earlier, I read here that the input for her new air drive attack is actually j.2D. They have angles there, but they were probably eyeballing. I actually took a protractor and did all that shit, though I could still be wrong. There is also a note that the attack that would usually be j.2D for Nu-13 is now j.6D. So Lambda has 3 jumping drives: j.D, j.6D, and j.2D. j.D is the slightly upward angle, j.6D is the slightly downward angle, and j.2D is the more prominent downward angle with launching attribute.

You mean emphasizing the things that Bullet has that are better when compared to Tsubaki while still blatantly mentioning the things that Tsubaki has better than Bullet in the argument but making them seem not as bad as they actually are in making it hard for Bullet to fight Tsubaki? Not having a very good mixup and not being able to close distance or run away as effectively etc. I usually try to think before I post but sometimes I don't and I let the victim complex get the better of me. I still really hate fighting Bullet because if I let her get heat and heat up it turns into the Tager matchup though I shouldn't let that cloud my eyes. Sorry about that. I still don't think the matchup is in Tsubaki's favor. Bullet has matchups that are just as bad as Tsubaki's worst ones because of the things that she lacks, especially when she doesn't have resources. I believe that this one is at least probably close to even with Bullet on top.

Not everyone's is just straight damage, though. From what Kuresu said back during the loketests, Tsubaki's OD reversal super does a special animation that allows the super to be followed up with a really nicely prorating normal that can lead into a combo when normally it cannot which means it can probably lead to a maintained oki on top of a bit more damage. So maybe some OD distortions will just leave characters in a more advantageous position or give them some kind of bonus when compared to their regular counterparts. I guess that is still the loketest, but I doubt they would just completely revamp the new OD distortions they already had in the loketest when 2.0 comes out.