chzchan

The flight travel time of j.214D makes it slower. It takes 17 frames (4 + 13) to start the descent, but it does not hit instantly. I'd say that it actually takes 19-21 frames before it connects because of travel time, if it does connect, of course. This is using 1.1 angle and values, though. I was also comparing it to tiger knee GH which, just like tiger knee j.214D, is limited in use to jump cancellable moves. tk.GH is definitely faster than tk.214D even if you take into account the time it takes tk.GH to hit a crouching opponent because they are probably comparable and tk.GH's superficial startup is 16 (4 + 12). Ah I really should have specified that I was comparing tk.GH. Sorry about that.

Whoa 22 non followup wall splats in the corner? Damn this is gonna be fun. I hope they didn't remove the Grab>CT route in the corner, though. 236D will be for Midscreen combos followup into dashing 5C. 214D jump canceling leads to IAD loop. Hahaha all of these combos with multiple 214X look like all the combos I do now that I never see any Tsubakis do. 236X>214D>5C2C>214B>5C2CC>j.C>j.CC>j.214A Oh man I was right about the 6A into 214D jcc CT route too. Looks like 421D>236D can be followed up with 6C Midscreen just like before even though it does spinning knock back now. Oh boy.

GH is not 24 frames if you tiger knee it and it cannot be grabbed out of. It can only be tiger kneed out of 5A, 3C, and 6C, though. He also has another overhead, 6B, so you have 2 of them to look out for on top of his jumping pressure with his cross up potential hit boxes. GH is strong not because it is fast, though. It is strong because it is a special move so its use is not limited by the revolver action table and it has a ton of range as well as moves Ragna forward incredibly far. Almost any move can be cancelled into GH. Being an average speed overhead does help, though. The trade off here is, of course, that GH and its followup are unsafe on block. Oh and hell no there is no way to block GH online. It is improssible. Maybe if the planets are aligning or something you can block it. If j.214D was an overhead, not only would it be slower than GH when tiger kneed, it would only be able to come out after 5A, 5B, and 2C (and 6C ;_; ) because of how little distance it travels. Hell, it would whiff if any of those mentioned normals had been barrier blocked. It would also cost resources. This is if we are using j.214D from 1.1, though. The way non-followup j.214D looks in the 2.0 footage, not only look like it starts up faster, it also has a much more horizontal descent angle compared to the current j.214D. Also, it can be followed up with 2A midscreen from the looks of it. Damn it would be a great addition to her arsenal if it were an overhead. Looks like it will be forever limited to combo fodder, frame traps, and emergency eject button for our DP that still makes us unsafe. Also whoops I could have just let Airk do this instead of writing this out on my phone in class.

So they really are going back in time, huh. Though Zan wasn't one of the moves that had bonus proration back then, or was it?

On it. Hmm, this one will be a bit less precise because the Tsubaki doesn't stop charging upon reaching 5 charges so the audio cue for charge stopping will not be at the very moment charge has stopped being generated. I'm still going to try. Okay, well the value in seconds that I got for the sound cue is 1.1 seconds which may be a bit too long. Tsubaki goes from ~3.7 charges to 5 in that time. Using current values, 1.1 seconds of charging will equate to 12500 (3500 + 9000) Tsubakis which is 1.25 charges. So from 3.7 to 5 is 1.3 which probably means that it is dependent on time held down rather than amount stored because the amount of charges gained in 1.1 seconds is nearly the same, but slightly greater. This just shows that there is a slight acceleration, though. This one may be super inaccurate, so things still need to be tested. If it is true, we have the current 1.1 charge rate of 250 Tsubakis/frame for the first most likely 7-21 frames of hitting 5D, but then the charge rate increases the longer the button is held instead of going down to 200 Tsubakis/frame and remaining static as it does now. I will try to figure out the acceleration value. I am sort of disappointed, though, because that means charge cancel values will remain the same as now which is pretty much ~0.25 charges for doing a charge cancel and dashing at the earliest possible moment which is essentially the recovery of a charge cancel. We'll get rewarded the same for using charge cancel pressure instead of getting the 1.2x charge rate I deduced incorrectly earlier. It's still going to be 4 charge cancels to 1 charge. Oh well. I guess that's alright.

214B looks like it has less recovery so it may be the safe thing to use out of 6C in pressure, though you won't be able to continue pressure out of 6C anymore. So like the old 2D? I can do some analysis to check it. If it really is, the more charge you have, the faster it fills up, that is pretty great. It would create an incentive to have more charges stocked because it would lessen the risk of getting more of them after blowing a few in neutral if you stored up to 5. That's super interesting. Okay I downloaded the sound from the video and did the sound cue stuff again. So, in total, Tsubaki is charging for 2.37 seconds. 2.37 seconds is around 142 frames. Instead of comparing it to the 1.2 value that I got from earlier in the 2.0 showcase video, lets compare it to the current charge rate. So, in 142 frames, at 1.1 rates, Tsubaki will generate 27700 (3500 + 24200) Tsubakis total which is around 2.8 charges. In the video, she went from around 0.5 charges to 4.3 charges. That is 3.8 charges in 2.37 seconds. If you compare it to the current charge rate, it is a whopping 1.37x faster than the current charge rate. You are correct Daedron. I am currently checking if it is based on how long you hold the button or how much charge you have. This is a bit harder.

That means no midscreen 22B > 6C punishes anymore. Those were the best. The way it is looking right now, it seems like corner combos chargeless will be doing the same damage as midscreen. Tsubaki will only get higher corner damage with charge. The distance that ending pressure with 236C leaves you at if the opponent does not barrier just so happens to be the maximum distance 5B can be and still connect with 5BB. Seen here.

I'm going to say what I said earlier about the risk/reward so I can attempt to understand the different perspectives. So what they did with this damage damage buff is bump up chargeless Tsubaki's reward to match her risk. It also will make her less reliant on charges for damage which slightly lowers her risk but not by much. This does heavily influence matchups, though, making the ones where she can be completely denied charges a tiny tiny tiny bit more bearable, but still pretty awful. They also made her charge rate 20% faster which decreases the risk of attaining resources slightly. I can see that they upped the utility of some D specials as well. ====== Chargeless 1.1 Risk : Reward -> 2.0 Risk : Reward With Charges (damage) 1.1 Risk : Reward -> 2.0 Risk : Reward With Charges (neutral) 1.1 Risk : Reward -> 2.0 Risk : Reward There are different things that people could want. Different combinations. For example, decreasing chargeless risk by making her pressure not as easy to just leave and making her approaches without using charge better or more reliable. Maybe changing around the hurtboxes on some of her normals and other stuff like that. That would be matching her chargeless risk to her chargeless reward by giving her an easier time in neutral and when applying pressure to compensate for how little damage she is capable of chargeless. 2.0 is definitely not heading in this direction. ====== Chargeless Risk : Reward -> Risk : Reward They could maybe make charging as fast as it used to be in order to match the reward it currently gives so that Tsubaki would be able to deal big boy damage regularly. This is sort of what 2.0 is doing, but on a much smaller scale due to the increased charge rate. This would lower risk to the levels that the damage reward are at so they are equal. ====== With Charges (damage) Risk : Reward -> Risk : Reward Maybe they could have made Tsubaki having charges give her some damn great neutral superiority somehow. This is also something they definitely did not do, increase the reward of using charges in neutral to match the risk. This is the one that I would want more than anything. More than goddamn anything. ====== With Charges (neutral) Risk : Reward -> Risk : Reward Correct me if I am wrong, though this entire thing I made is heavily biased into how I see the current Tsubaki. Feel free to copy this if you want to adjust it into one for how you feel. Also, I may be simplifying things too much, so tell me what variables I could be missing.

Wait, so did they give Zan bonus proration like it used to have? Anyone know what the values are?

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks man. Man, that is ridiculous damage off 1 charge even considering the heat requirements. I just asked Spinoza and 214D is not cancellable into CT. He said that you have to jump and use advanced input to cancel into CT during the 4 frames of jump startup when you are still on the ground. Her super advanced combos are actually going to be a legitimate challenge now.

http://www.twitch.tv/central804/b/577014410 At around 15 minutes and 30 seconds in.

Hmm. I guess I am probably wrong about the 236D thing. I should do some actual measurements instead of eyeballing. 端 IG1 HG75% ハーフODで投げから5300。 端 IG1 HG100% ハーフODでBBCCから5800。 中央はBBCCから5350。 From Spinoza What does IG mean?

Hmm, what does 236D's current large distance covered do for us right now?

In the corner Grab > 214B > 5C > 2C > 236B > 214B > 22B causes early air tech window to appear. Man I am super duper excited now. Seen here. Also, 236D movement distance has definitely been nerfed. It scales about the same space as the current 236C. So no more 22D > 236D midscreen, but I guess it doesn't hurt too much.

That might be the case. Oh well. Also here you go, I made another correct prediction. OD Blade Super holds your opponent completely still while they are blocking, even if they are using barrier. If you watch for a bit afterward, 421D > 236D used on a grounded standing opponent can be followup up with 6C after the spinning knockback. After the 6CC, they went into IAD combo which still works, but only out of 6CC.

Well it wasn't really to showcase the damage more than it was to showcase some new combo routes. As you can see, of course you already knew you can cancel into CT out of stances, but now [2]8C can be used to continue combos meterless while in the corner because it both launches really high and wall sticks without a CH. I mean, I don't think it is a complete replacement for the loss of the B orb, but these are some new routes that exist. I just wanted to show that.

That means we're going to have to use 5A > 5B > j.Etc. which will be more strict but it'll work. That means they made 2C start up slower because they can't reduce 5A's hitsun lower than level 0. 421D projectile stays in the same place for a pretty long time after appearing. Definite oki potential. Also it just suddenly becomes a goddamn rocket and flies across the screen after a second or so of travelling super slowly. Can be seen here. I'm trying to analyze 22B some more, but the quality isn't good enough for me to measure things. I think just maybe maybe the amount of time you hold 22B down has some kind of proportionality to how long they slide. Of course, the slide is not the full charge slide that we get right now, but this might be something to have fun with. When Kuresu was fighting the Noel and he had his DP blocked, he did j.236D > j.214D and the j.214D went down at the old -60 degree angle. So I think that raw j.214D goes down at the j.214C descent angle and followup j.214D goes down at the j.214A descent angle. can be seen here. So out of both 623X and j.236X, j.236D has the -60 degree angle, but it has the -30 degree angle when used alone. That's pretty cool.

With 214D being CT cancellable I can already see some potentially damaging midscreen punish combos. [1 Charge + 25% + CH] 5C > 6CC > 214D > CT > 5C(dash) > 2C > j.B > j.C > 5C > 2C > 214B > 5C > 2CC > j.C > j.CC > j.214A [? DM] [?% HG] [1 Charge + 25% + CH] 5C > 6CC > 214D > CT > 214B > 5C > 2C > j.B > j.C > 5C > 2CC > j.C > j.CC > j.214A [? DM] [?% HG] [1 Charge + 25% + CH] 5C > 6CC > 214D > CT > 5C(dash) > 2C > 214B > 5C > 2C > j.B > j.C > 5C > 2CC > j.CC > j.214A [? DM] [?% HG] With tech disabled these did between 4.5-4.8k, so that means they will do even more in 2.0 with proration/damage values changed like I expect them to be.

What I am predicting, though this may be wrong, is that 22B out of Etc. > 236B > 214B > 22 in the corner will be able to be followed up with 2B. Like it looks like it only has as much untech time as an uncharged 22B does right now on air hit, but I think it has slightly more and also our 2B might have been made faster. After testing in training mode, it is definitely possible to go into j.236A oki in the corner out of 2B > 2CC pickup if I am right about the amount of untech time on 2.0 22. If we lost our j.236A corner oki, so what. I know there will be something to replace it. 421D looks really promising because of how slow it is when it first appears. Also, since we won't need to rely on charge as much for damage and we get charges slightly faster, using them outside of combos will probably be okay. Also, if I have guessed correctly with how much damage is possible now, if you start that DP whiff into 2C > j.B > j.C > 5C loop with a 5CC starter, it will do around 3.6-3.7k damage midscreen. That's ridiculous.

It would be awesome if it was + on block. Then it could be used along with its amazing new flight/descent angle as an approach tool maybe. Also, 236C looks like a really really neat gimmick combo ender if you do it after 5C > 2C on an enemy that is airborne. Because you can do some double crossunder shenanigans by running back and forth like crazy. Man this is going to be so much fun. It looks really funny when Tsubaki uses 236D in pressure because both people mash 5A or 2A and they aren't able to hit each other.

I was just minding my own business, you know, watching some 2.0 Tsubaki vs Kagura footage and then this happened. [Corner + 25% CH] 6C > 6D~C > 2D~A > 5D~A > CT > 5C > 6D~C > [2]8C > 5C > 6D~C > 2D~B > ([4]6A) [6738 DM] [10% HG] Kagura corner combo by the way. I am afraid.

Okay. I think I understand. Thanks for pointing it out. [Corner + 25% CH] 6C > 6D~C > 2D~A > 5D~A > CT > 5C > 6D~C > [2]8C > 5C > 6D~C > 2D~B > ([4]6A) [6738 DM] [10% HG] Here. I saw it in one of the new Tsubaki match videos and I shit my pants, especially when I saw that it ends in projectile oki and doesn't require a DD ender. So apparently you're now able to combo out of [2]8C in the corner and cancelling into CT adds a metric fuckton of damage.

You're probably right, but in the fight with the Rachel, she air barriered the Blade Super and didn't get sent flying across the screen. Specifically the j.236D > j.214D aura itself deals 9 hits as opposed to the 7 that it does currently. They may have buffed its damage output along with changing its knockback properties. Hahaha, Kuresu is trying to use 623D > j.214A(w). Maybe that will be a new way to spend charge. I have been trying to do that as a combo for a long time but it has just not been worth it damage-wise. Uncharged 22 may cause the emergency tech window to appear the same way ending a combo that has the opponent airborne with 22B does right now. So, even if they are holding a direction along with A, B, or C, they will still neutral tech. It forces them to delay tech in order to roll which is pretty okay I guess. Still going to miss slide. This might be incorrect. j.214X series looks like it either starts up way faster or reaches the ground at a much higher speed compared to 1.1. Saw Kuresu try a sorta new but not really Mugen route which was 5CC > Mugen > 623D > j.236D > j.214D > 214D > 22[D] > etc. At this point in the video he is still not sure what to follow up j.236D > j.214D with on hit, so he uses 214D. 3C may have much faster recovery so it might be much less negative on block. [FC] 3CC > 5C > 2C > j.B > j.CC > 5C > 2C > 214B > 5C > 2CC > j.C > j.CC > j.214A [3759 DM] [27% HG] Turned off air tech in training mode to test out the new 2C > j.B > j.C > 5C route with FC 3CC and only got 3270 damage and 23 heat. The new route gives us about as much damage and heat as doing 2 repetitions of the IAD loop would have. Holy shit 5BB looks like it has an even smaller step forward. Seriously why would they do that? Tried doing the new 3209 chargeless BnB in training mode with air tech disables to use the new combo route and it doesn't do nearly as much damage or have as much heat gain. At the moment 5BB > 5CC > 623C > j.214A(w) > 5C > 2C > j.B > j.C > 5C > 2C > 214B > 5C > 2CC > j.C > j.CC > j.236A > j.214A in 1.1 deals 2729 damage with 19% heat gain, so they definitely fiddled with some numbers. j.214D causes regular knockdown instead of slide knockdown and leaves you close enough to use 2A to pick up the opponent. I didn't know that 2A OTGs. Huh. Oh! j.214D has j.214C's flight path now. Oh yes how I have wanted this for a long time. -30 degree angle instead of a -60 degree angle. Perfect. It seems that our new combo path out of 214D will be 214D > j.C(delay) > 5C > 2C etc. because 214D is jump cancellable on hit. Pretty neat. You can now cancel into CT out of 214D on hit. So 214D is not just jump cancellable, but also probably has some other cancellability properties as well.

I noticed that too, but I really can't tell with how the video quality is. The rate may have been toned down to the rate of a charge cancel or something. I saw Kuresu drop (2B > 2CC) > 22D > 6C in the corner. The opponent was able to tech really fast after the wallstick. so that combo path is out the window. I think Blade super maybe MAYBE might have less pushback. Is barrier draining faster, is that just me? Also the 623C > j.236A(w) combos look pretty hard. I don't think we even need to use j.236A(w). I saw Kuresu do multiple paths and j.214A(w) route looks really doable. The 5BB > 5CC > 623C > j.214A(w) > 5C > 2C > j.B > j.C > 5C > 2C > 214B > 5C > 2CC > j.C > j.CC > j.236A > j.214A 3209 is confirmed. Holy shit that's a lot of damage midscreen for no charge and off of a fairly easy confirm. [] 5BB > 5CC > 623C > j.214A(w) > 5C > 2C > j.B > j.C > 5C > 2C > 214B > 5C > 2CC > j.C > j.CC > j.236A > j.214A [3209 DM] [23% HG] Seems like max charge for 22D either takes not nearly as long to reach or slightly charged 22D followup causes more wallstick. Kuresu was able to followup Etc. > 236D > 22[D] with 6C even though he couldn't do so with an uncharged 22D out of some ground hits before. [2 Charge + Corner] 5CC > 236D > 22[D] > 6C > j.D > j.C > 5C > 2C > 214B > 5C > 2CC > j.C > j.CC > j.214A [4409 DM] [36% HG] Looks like we're going to have to followup uncharged 22D corner combos into 5C instead of the superior 6C. That's okay I guess because we have the new j.B > j.C > 5C route. [1 Charge + Corner] 5B > 22D > 5C > 2C > j.B > j.C > 5C > 2C > 214B > 5C > 2CC > j.C > j.CC > j.214A [3537 DM] [?% HG] Looks like even with corner and charges, you don't do that much more damage than that amazing new midscreen BnB if you take advantage of the new route in both. [75%] 3CC > RC > CT > 6CC > IAD > j.CC(delay) > 5C > 2C > 214B > 5C > 2C > j.CC > j.214A [4794 DM] [11% HG] The old IAD loop lives, but only out of 6CC I guess. Also they must have increased the hitstun on 2C or the startup of non-followup 214B because I just tried out this combo and that 214B after the j.CC > 5C > 2C whiffs and causes the combo to drop. That is a lot of damage for not having to spend any charge at all, even if it does require 75% heat. The 22X series does seem to either charge up faster or get different properties mid charge instead of full charge because Kuresu was able to do 3CC > RC > 22[D] and get the wallbounce midscreen no problem. Max charge 22D seems to send the opponent flying away at a 10-15 degree angle before they wallstick midscreen. It also causes the opponent to spin. Oh boy j.236D > j.214D causes knockdown instead of spinning knockback. I don't know if this is good or bad. If it can still be followed up with 6C, then it is good because it fixes a lot of consistency issues that j.236D > j.214D had with certain characters' hitboxes making them fly off in different directions.

Oh boy thanks for that link. 236D now launches into spinning knockback on standing opponents. I knew it. 5BB > 5CC > 236D > 5C(dash) > 2C > j.B > j.C(delay) > 5C > 2C > 214B > 5C > 2C > j.C > j.CC > etc. This was done within the first minute, but it was already at nearly 3.5k before it ended. That was 1 charge off of 5BB > 5CC midscreen. Damn. 421D > 236D might not move forward as far but that may just be Rachel's wind's fault. j.CC > 5CC > 623C > j.214A(w) > 5C > 2C > 214B > 5C > 2CC > j.C > j.CC > (j.236A ?) > j.214A for 2894 I did the same thing offline in 1.1 and get (2592) 2517 damage, so that's a difference of 400 damage for a chargeless combo off of an air to ground confirm j.C. That's amazing. I wonder fi they reverted the global jumping normal P2 nerfs in 1.1.