SnowMonkeyFunky

I was messing around with Leo last night and kept getting thrown out of post rekkas 236H whiff into BT mixup. I could hardly ever hit BT K meaty so I gave up and just went for the safejump for the remainder of the set. It could just be my lack of practice with him, as well as whatever lag I got online. Would I be better off going for meaty BT P > K or HS as a mixup? I'm thinking that if BT P is active enough to be a reliable meaty, then I may be better off going for that to prevent wakeup throws and jump out as well as forcing them to respect whatever followup I chose. My mindset behind it would be kind of like Millia doing meaty 5K on disc oki to lock down. EDIT: The wiki says BT P has 4 active frames so more than reasonable to meaty, as well as throw invuln for the first 8 frames, so assuming that's all right then the above should be more than reasonable no? Are there any characters that can get under BT P via low profile or low crouch?

I messed around in this matchup last night for a bit, and picked up a few things. Take it with a grain of salt though; there were upwards of 5 frames of lag so some things I picked up may not be entirely useful in a low/no lag setting. This is a matchup were I feel clS as an AA is not only viable but absolutely necessary. Her up close ground dash shenanigans can be completely shut down with that if she isn't covered by a note or Chemical Love YRC. While absorbing notes with QV is occasionally useful if they stay back, it seems like 90% of the time they'll use them to go in hard. Predicting where they send it and how they'll approach is something you'll have to put work into in this match. jP and jD are both excellent air to airs, so using them when getting around the note and stuffing their approach is always satisfying. Notes can seemingly be stuffed by a single ball regardless of distance traveled as well, so Stinger YRC may also be a good option to mess with note approaches. I think I saw big tree go under K ball oki at one point, but that may have been my bad timing online and not necessarily a consistent escape option. Overall, I agree that it's in I-No's favor, but she has the same issue Venom does; neither of their pressure is completely airtight. Learning to escape or work around her setups and shenanigans is an absolute necessity.

Another phenomenal (Venom-inal? Heh) video teef. These setups reek of all the best parts of #R Venom. I actually liked that at certain points you showed where there was a gap for the opponent to escape by jumping out.

Updated my initial write up on post K ball oki combo options yet again. The point could stand to be reiterated in its own post though. Basically, be aware of extra pushback after jumping normals. There seems to be a window on certain moves where you can interrupt the pushback and allow for more consistent followups. IE something like post K ball dash jump over AD back jS (no delay on landing) clS [1] xx PQV 5P etc will connect but jS (slight delay) clS [1] etc will not work because of the extra time and pushback between landing and hitting clS. Moral of the story: tighten up that combo timing.

I just got home and did some testing. QV nullifies every non super or 'enhanced' projectile that I know of. By enhanced, I mean something like that Ky's seals/grinders/whatchamacalit floaty things turn his projectiles into physical hits, meaning QV will not nullify them. QV also won't absorb seal set, as that seems like a physical hit as well. Also doesn't nullify Sol's Dragon Install Gunflame. Are there any weird non super projectiles that may not adhere to this rule that I can test? All I've tried so far are Ky's stun edge and grinder, Axl's [4]6 S (works) and [4]6HS(doesn't), and Sol's Gunflame with and without Dragon Install. EDIT: I think I'm going to try to compile a list of all the things QV can and can't nullify once I have more time to grind on training. So far I have: Sol - Gunflame:Yes Dragon Install Gunflame: No Ky - Stun Edge/Charge Stun Edge: Yes Above through seal: No Seal set (D and 236D): No Axl - Sickle throw ([4]6 S): Yes Unblockable chain ([4]6 HS): No I-No - Notes: Yes (even full screen 5ish hit version) Chemical Love (214K/S): No Potemkin - Projectile reflected by FDB: No Leo - Cross projectile ([4]6S/HS): Yes (thanks Godpress) Venom - All specials involving balls (Ball set into hit including charged balls, Stinger and charged Stinger, CR): Yes* QV initial hit: No Red Hail: Surprisingly Yes Bishop Runout: No Dark Angel: Technically yes, but only 6 out of the total 23 hits. For all intents and purposes, consider it a no. Useless information but interesting nonetheless. *This is assuming the projectile hits Venom around where he is 'holding' the ball. Teleport behind during QV charge into a ball hit or stinger will NOT be nullified. This applies to all things QV absorbs, but is notable in the Venom mirror because of the ability for cross up teleports with certain patterns.

Dai, I caught your match vs Zidane's Leo on the youtube archive and saw you do a really clean example of S > P ball oki. Thanks for that, I've been struggling to find a clear illustration of that setup. Unrelated question, but does absorbing projectiles with QV make it charge faster, or just nullify them? And is there a limit to how many hits it can absorb/nullify (IE can a QV charge destroy something like Dark Angel or Ky's CSE)?

Definitely a matchup that makes me want to tear my hair out. There seems to be a "no mans land" in the space between his drills where he can toss them out with impunity because any attempt at hitting a button expand Venom's hurtbox enough to get clipped. Drill puddle into summon/drill yrc summon can royally screw most attempts at ball sets in neutral. Timing DAs to hit both Zato and the puppet can be a nightmare. This match is definitely one of those where whoever lands the first clean hit dictates the pace of the round. It's just that Zato has a much easier time landing said clean hit.

Pretty neat teef. I'm gonna be stealing a couple of those. On an unrelated note, how do you guys feel about raw YRC as a way to mess with your opponents rhythm or allow you to react to and deal with situations you otherwise couldn't? I actually found it fairly useful when fighting Slayer; raw YRC into dash under 6P lets Venom AA the otherwise incontestable jHS. I'm sure it has applications beyond this, any ideas?

With S>HS ball specifically, what you're doing is hitting the S ball in the HS pattern which is at about tip 5P range. That ball hits the HS ball as it travels forward, deflecting both into a forward "<" pattern. Sometimes other leftover ball sets can mess with this, but that's just something you have to be aware of as a Venom player.

It seems like Millia can dance around anything Venom attempts. Trying to set balls in neutral is suicide because of that run speed and airdash. She has a pretty easy time getting around zoning. AA 6P has to be done days early if you want to have a chance to hit her before she gets in. This is definitely a matchup that makes me want to gouge my eyes out. How the hell is Venom supposed to handle insanely fast characters?

Ok so the jS whiffs while they're still rising. Seems like it would only work on longer distance 2D knockdowns. Does Ky have a faster wakeup than other characters? I was trying this on him and I kept hitting with both jS and the HS ball.

I'm a little confused on how to practice setting up the HS safejump and following it up. Do I want the jS to hit the ball but whiff on the dummy or are they both supposed to hit at the same time? Do I still hit the ball when I go for jS jHS? Does this work off of any 2D or is this range dependant? When I go low what kind of combo can I get?

On the wiki there's a mention of S > P ball oki and a safejump using HS ball. How do you set those up and what kind of mixups do you get off of them?

1. Very character, spacing, and height specific. Chances are if you're seeing that they botched the IAD. 2.There's a character specific matchup thread for him. Not too experienced against him so I can't say much productive besides ask there and try to find videos of Venom v Chipp.

I actually have the same issue. Delaying the input a bit seems to compensate for it. The general rule of thumb for IAD combos in Xrd, at least in my experience with Venom and Millia, is that you want to do the input later than you would expect.

I'll have to practice that. Can she still get a damage off of 5K > mixup, or does it mess with the timing to where you can't dash up 5S 2H air combo?

I'll have to give 2HS a shot. It will probably require a little preemptive timing ala 6HS. Can we capitalize at all on an AA CH 2HS, or just settle for a guaranteed ball set? Another thing that really messed with me was his backdash. It seems like he can backdash jump cancel shenanigans to get out of and punish a lot of Venom's pressure and oki. Is there a way to prevent that other than a hard read with fS or 6HS?

I didn't know Secret Garden was so effective against DPs. And I'm a little mindblown that Millia's mixups boil down to a lot more than a raw 50/50 with TK fastfall being the counter to backdash and Bad Moon/Hair car countering reversal throws if you botch your dash up disc spacing. On dash up disc and countering jump out again, is there a timing where 2D dash up HS disc 2K will hit meaty to beat jumps? I'm really concerned about this because my online sparring partners love to try to jump out of my pressure when I use Venom, and I want to shut that down hard when learning Millia.

How do each of these options handle things like jumpout/1 frame jumps, reversal dp, reversal throw, backdash, and any other common escape methods that I can't think of at the moment? Also, is there any benefit to doing 2D xx roll HS disc over 2D dash up HS disc or vice versa?

What is Millia's basic bread and butter mixup midscreen? Off what knockdowns does she get said mixup?

What can we do to deal with Slayer's hyper-dominant air normals? It seems like once he gets in range you just have to deal with jHS. Preemptive 6HS would be great if it didn't have that damn dead zone near Venom.

Reposted and edited in the General Discussion thread with a link to the original post like you asked. I would actually really appreciate a consolidated oki discussion thread/segment on the wiki. If it weren't obvious enough from the two write ups I did, I tend to rely on K ball oki a lot :P

Edited and updated analysis on dash jS vs dash jK that I posted in the Q/A thread. (http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/9853-xrd-venom-qa-thread/?p=871482) Zato was my punching bag for 99% of testing this, but it 'shouldn't' make a difference unless there are wonky hitboxes for some characters as they get up. EDIT: found a wonky hitbox! Faust of course. Changes: *: Indicates edited segment, ranging from a few words to a complete overhaul. **: Indicates brand new segment -Dash jump jS is almost always better for K ball oki midscreen than dash jK. Why? *-In situations where the dash jump causes a crossup (IE almost everything ending in 2D), the jK would make the ball push the dummy away, making the low mixup of 2K clS come out as 2K fS and not allowing a followup normal on P QV from the high option. The reason for this is probably because the ball hits after you go to the other side of your opponent, reversing the knockback. The dash jS has an easier time hitting the ball in such a way that the dummy is pushed towards you as you go to the other side and land 2K/reverse airdash jS. This makes both followup combos not only possible off K ball oki, but also far easier than done from a neutral state. **-THEORY: I haven’t fully tested this, but it could be a useful gimmick. Because dash jK ball hits as you’re on the other side of the opponent as a crossup, and dash jS hits while you’re still on their front side, POSSIBLE four way mixup? If this is true, people familiar with Venom will know which way to block initially depending on the air normal used, but still useful for messing with people without much experience in this matchup. **-One exception (so far); Faust. His hitbox is super wide and really short so for knockdowns off of 2D he's better off getting dash jK over dash jS. *-for knockdowns off of 6HS, the dash jS hits the K ball at a more shallow horizontal angle, and at a faster speed. Both jS and jK are possible, but dash jS hits meaty a LOT more consistently. This comes at a price though, because at certain timings they will be pushed back too far for the low option of 2K clS(3) to work. Still possible, but very unforgiving if you botch the timing. Basically, if you’re not confident in your timing and you’ve conditioned your opponent to stay still on oki, then dash jK is overall a lot easier. *-The only situation midscreen where dash jK is favorable is off of 1-2 point blank low pushback hits into 2D. The awkward range seems to be the knockdown distance between dash momentum 2K 2D xx K ball and point blank no dash momentum 2K clS (1) 2D xx K ball. This is because if they decide to crouch, the jS' ball hit angle will make it whiff. If you feel like you really would rather set up dash jS midscreen off of a close 2K or something similar, do either 2K clS (2) 2D xx K ball stuff or 2K 2S 2D xx K ball stuff. Be aware of this range when setting up K ball off of 2D from a gatling. What about the corner?: *-Corner K ball oki actually benefits more from dash jK's vertical angle and slower speed for both primary knockdowns. I couldn't really find any situations where dash jS would be favorable here. Note that if you end a combo in a really close 6HS xx K ball, they K ball may whiff on a crouching opponent. In this case, something like K > S ball set after 6HS compensates by putting the K ball at a position closer to +R’s K ball sweet spot, making it uncrouchable, as well as giving you a second ball for various little gimmicks. How do you time dash jS for K ball oki?: *-The best way I can describe it for off a 2D is that you are reacting to their rising animation and inputting dash jS as they're getting up. This is a good bit later than dash jK's preemptively timed hit. To test if you're timing it right, record the dummy to stand there for about a second, then hold up for five or so seconds. Hit playback, then do 2K 2S 2D xx K ball, react to rising and dash jump jS. If they get hit by the ball and they're still standing, you timed it right. Also be sure to practice against lower crouchers like Zato/Venom/Faust/etc. You can also do slight delay into longer dash jS. A little more strict when doing your followup, but still possible with practice. -For off of 6HS it's only a miniscule delay. The extra speed and shallow angle make it so that there isn't much difference between using dash jK and dash jS. And that's it, at least from what I could find. If anyone finds any discrepancies or flat out inaccuracies please let me know and I'll fix it.

Oh, no. I mean double tapping the input after the QV. Like with P QV 5P, my input bar will look like 41236P, P~P. Which midscreen throw combo, the throw dash up 2HS xx CR, IAD stuff? For that one, what I do is throw, 66 [3](keeps you running, extra charge time for CR) 2HS xx CR, 96 jS jHS jD land 6HS. Honestly, for now I'm just doing dash up 2HS xx CR, dash 6HS as an easy mode combo until I get that other one burned into muscle memory.

I did some testing with both dash jS and slight delay dash jK so here's another long winded write up: (Zato as dummy but it 'shouldn't' make a difference unless there are wonky hitboxes for some characters as they get up) -Dash jump jS is almost* always better for K ball oki midscreen than dash jK. Why? -In situations where the dash jump causes a crossup (IE almost* everything ending in 2D), the jK would make the ball push the dummy away, making the low mixup of 2K clS come out as 2K fS and not allowing a followup normal on P QV from the high option. The dash jS has an easier time hitting the ball in such a way that the dummy is pushed towards you as you go to the other side and land 2K/reverse airdash jS. This makes both followup combos not only possible off K ball oki, but also far easier than done from a neutral state. -for knockdowns off of 6HS, the dash jS hits the K ball at a more shallow horizontal angle, and at a faster speed. Both jS and jK are possible, and overall very easy to set up, but for the sake of consistency it's probably a good idea to drill in that jS is, for the most part, the go to normal for midscreen K ball oki. *The only situation midscreen where dash jK is favorable is off of 1-2 low pushback hits into 2D. The awkward range seems to be the knockdown distance between dash momentum 2K 2D xx K ball and point blank no dash momentum 2K clS (1) 2D xx K ball. This is because if they decide to crouch, the jS' ball hit angle will make it whiff. If you feel like you really would rather set up dash jS midscreen off of a close 2K or something similar, do either 2K clS (2) 2D xx K ball stuff or 2K 2S 2D xx K ball stuff. Be aware of this range when setting up K ball off of 2D from a gatling. What about the corner?: -Corner K ball oki actually benefits more from dash jK's vertical angle and slower speed for both primary knockdowns. I couldn't really find any situations where dash jS would be favorable here. How do you time dash jS for K ball oki?: -The best way I can describe it for off a 2D is that you are reacting to their rising animation and inputting dash jS as they're getting up. This is a good bit later than dash jK's preemptively timed hit. To test if you're timing it right, record the dummy to stand there for about a second, then hold up for five or so seconds. Hit playback, then do 2K 2S 2D xx K ball, react to rising and dash jump jS. If they get hit by the ball and they're still standing, you timed it right. -For off of 6HS it's only a miniscule delay. The extra speed and shallow angle make it so that there isn't much difference between using dash jK and dash jS. And that's it, at least from what I could find. If anyone finds any discrepancies or flat out inaccuracies please let me know and I'll fix it. On a semi unrelated note, do you guys mind these long ass write ups? I'm by no means the best Venom the world, but I do my best to try and figure out every nuance of a given situation. I try to go into as much detail as I can for the sake of people like me who are still in the learning process for this character. If it's too much I'll cut back next time. Also, if this post should be in the combo thread or general discussion instead of Q/A, I'll delete and move it. I just figured since we were already talking about different normals for K ball oki that I'd post it here.