Justice7541

Hakumen is basically just Terumi with counters, the meter mechanic just isn't as obvious cause it's stars instead of actual meter. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

Which, the 3-DP version or the dash 623C? The dash 623C is really easy, that shouldn't be a problem. They also end up really low if you do the 623C raw instead of 5C 623C so the 3-DP version is also very easy, I was able to make it work off j.C 5B 5C etc. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

Forward grab to CT? It has the advantage of burning less meter but yeah, it's not really that good. If they're close enough to corner that corner carry is an option 22C will usually combo as well. Grab 22c dash 3c Orochi actually works from pretty far away. Otherwise if your back is to the corner you can just go straight into Messenga for the side switch.

Terumi's frametraps are great lol, he can punish a mash for like 6k. That alone is enough to keep people guessing. You'd be surprised how difficult it is to not mash against a character who can hit you for half your health off a mixup, even if it's a bad mixup. With a 5b that is as + on block as some people's slow reset normals (i.e. Bang 6A) and the potential to blow you up with sufficient resources (even j.2D leads to like 4k if he has 100-mter Fuuenjin) there's a lot of mindgames going on. The reason i brought Terumi up in the first place though was to point out that it's not that easy to just cobble together a balanced character from scratch. I think a lot of people have pointed out flaws in Terumi's game that wouldn't even be an issue if some of his stuff was just very slightly better. Like: - If 236D was 2-3 more frames of untechable time, he'd have super strong oki off pretty much everything. - If 2C was like 1f faster, 5C had better forward movement, 3C was jump-cancelab,e etc. or any of a million small tweaks to any of his normals, his meterless pressure would be a ton stronger which would negate his primary weaknesses of "needs meter to get meter". I'm sure that with Kokonoe, etc. they weren't thinking that having one unblockable super would lead to such a clusterfuck either, the obvious issues with that move notwithstanding (literally days of invul and active frames, full unblockable, vacuums, etc.). And even if you loketested her for weeks that's not going to come out right away.

Ragna's entire character is pretty much designed around Inferno Divider. If he didn't have it he'd be... almost as bad as Makoto lol. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

Yeah I've been messing around with it. 236B RC 623C~214C 623B~214B 623C seems easier and more practical although you're trading oki for more stocks. If you do want oki though omitting the B teleport after 623C actually makes it easier since you won't run into the crossup problem. I.e. just do 236B RC 5C 623B dash 623C sj.C j.D. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

It depends on how much meter Terumi has because outside of corner he needs Messenga (the dash super) to extend a combo past 1.5k and then it depends on whether you're willing to trade oki for damage. If you get 5B starter with 50% meter he can get about 4k midscreen, if he has meter to spare and ends with Fuuenjin or something it'll go up to about 5k. In corner he hits 4-5k pretty consistently since he doesn't need Messenga to get the combo started. The problem as was already stated is that if he wants oki 236D is a bad ender, and that move prorates heavily (so it's not that good mid-combo). If you're in the corner that's not a problem since you'll be getting tons of meter anyway and there are better oki enders (ending with 236D is only worth about 15 meter anyway due to proration) but midscreen you kind of need that 236D ender for meter build since you don't have many meter-build options otherwise and you're expending much more meter. Regardless I think people are overexaggerating how bad 236D is, it's not THAT big of a deal that it gives bad oki. He's got plenty of other better oki enders, including 236D > Orochi which gives really good oki and decent damage.

CT had dumb shit, P4A had dumb shit. So did vanilla SF4, Marvel, etc. It's not like loketests will help that much for new characters, it's just that it's hard to balance them when you're starting from scratch. Terumi is a pretty fine line between average and ridiculous as it is, imagine if he had, like, slightly better frames and hitboxes on everything. He's already the asshole hitting 8k with two moves on a reset, imagine if he had some godlike 50/50 mixup on top of that like Yu does.

For most games the answer is "not very". I don't think Arcsys is really getting a ton of meaningful balance input from guys playing a game for ten minutes for the first time. Nothing that a bunch of professional game designers couldn't have caught on their own anyway.

The new GA movement is looking to be a huge buff but I guess we'll really just have to wait and see exactly how it ends up working in practice. If it is like Aigis's Orgia movement then lol.

If you attempt to bait Ragna's DP by blocking, say on a wakeup, and he wakes up and doesn't DP but does 5B instead, now you're in pressure. That applies to everything except a safejump. By comparison as long as you're far enough from Kagura that he can't 5B you (which isn't very far) there's nothing he can do in response to you blocking on wakeup except wait for you to do something that he can DP. I should also mention that Kagura's DP doesn't give oki on non-CH so it won't do much against jabs and the like other than a (admittedly decent) chunk of damage and get you off him. Same goes for Mu's although Mu at least has reasons to want to get you away from her. The topic seems to be going in circles now anyway though so I'm willing to drop it if anyone has anything better to talk about. Like Jin being in Chaos Heroes instead of Noel or Hakumen or any other character who isn't a super generic pretty-boy-with-sword stereotype.

Kagura's DP is nowhere as good as ID. Yes, it is safe on air block and yes, it is much easier to do on split-second reaction because it's only one motion (8) rather than 3 (623). That said: - Kagura has no "bait counter" option. If Ragna reads an an attempt to bait his DP by blocking, backdash, etc. he can just 5B and get pressure or straight-up punish it. Against Kagura all you need to do is back up a tiny bit and block and he can't do anything to reverse the situation because his dash is so slow and his normals are so short. In most cases the worst-case scenario for Kagura reading your bait is that you don't get to straight-up punish him. - Kagura's DP is a charger. This means it not only loses to every other invul move that will clash with it (i.e. Ragna's DP) since you can't do it repeatedly, but you also can't do it after the opponent forces you to block an overhead since you lose your charge. - For the same reason, you can't do it quickly if the opponent does an otherwise DPable string that you block while not already crouching. I.e. you block Hazama's chain while dashing in and he D pulls in = you can't DP it. I understand the temptation to respond to hyperbole with hyperbole but there's no way in hell that Ragna's DP is not the best DP in the game.

Now I KNOW I'm being trolled. Back homing is a free DP bait that any character can use, and lots of characters have ways to bait or punish it with other moves. You can't EF/homing cancel the DP unless it actually hits something which means it's also easy to cross it up or blow it up in other ways. Also, get baited on a DP in AH3 = you die. So many characters have massive damage punishes that either outright kill the opponent or lead into super ambiguous oki, if they get a starter as good as a whiffed DP punish. Ragna's DP by comparison is active for days and because of the sheer size of the hitbox, lots of characters have no choice but to block it, after which means he gets a guaranteed RC and takes pressure. Also, because of the sheer amount of invul on it and is doable repeatedly in the air on clash, it beats literally every other move in the game.

Now AH3 I've played, Heart and Weiss DPs aren't remotely as good just because of how easy it is to bait DPs in that game. Just for reference what is so good about 3s Ken DP as opposed to any other DP in that game? I play that game extremely casually so I can't comment on it even if it's extremely obvious. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

Okay yeah the "shitty game" DPs are a contender. I don't play 3s really so I dunno about that but I think I'd still take Ragna DP over any of the other ones mentioned in the games I have played. Either way my point still stands that Ragna DP is really fucking good, especially in a game where some characters barely even have reversals even with meter. When IAD crossup DP is a legit mixup option you know that move's hitbox is fucked. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

What DPs can you name that are better than ID? I can't think of any. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

It's saying the Garengeki combos are too easy now so they're being nerfed, i think. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

5B IAD > high/low would be funny if it ends up being possible. Or just 5B back IAD to bait out DPs and the like. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

I just want ID to get nerfed, it is literally the best DP in like any fighting game ever. Well, that I can think of off the top of my head anyway. Huge hitbox, absurd priority/invul, sets up oki/combos, can be RC'd into pressure/mixup, etc. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

Um. I think you totally misinterpreted what I was trying to say. People using D teleport randomly at neutral are going to get blown up no matter how many stocks it costs. What I'm referring to is the fact that after she gets in, her gameplan is pretty much just GA dash j.C 236D > dash/low mixup > repeat. There are so many holes in her pressure otherwise that most of her other options are super risky and/or gimmicky. It made her pressure super stale because it basically boiled down to reacting to canned strings. I like the stock cost change coupled with the new movement options because it makes her pressure more diverse, both because the j.C > D Saber route is not as good and because her other options are now better. I'm looking forward to trying out some shenanigans with IAD-on-block mixups and teleport baits, though of course it's all theoretical until we get a chance to see exactly how her air movement works. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

It's also gives them the option to try to mashing out of the actual high/low. Terumi can of course frametrap mashing for huge damage but there are definitely reasons why you'd want to opt for a safe airtight high/low rather than gambling on a punishable mixup with a gap. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

Anyone figured out if any good routes exist for GA > mode switch > normal mode stock building using RC? It'd be nice to have a good option to rebuild stock by taking advantage of GA dash mixup options while holding minimal stocks. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

Well if Burensen remains safe on block it's basically an alternative to doing 236D RC > mixup. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

I like it, the old Izayoi playstyle was basically get stocks > throw D saber on block > yolo mixups > repeat until out of stocks. It was dumb and brainless and not even that good. The new teleport and air movement options coupled with better combos should make her a considerably more interesting character. Still no AA though, please at least buff 623B Arcsys. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

My Izayoi wishlist: - 623B has better hitbox - Horizontal version of A Sonic Saber, like Jin's air ice sword - 6A has actual invul OR is safe on block OR is teleport cancelable - New GA j.B for air-to-air Honestly I think that's all she really needs to be decent. The whole "power up by attacking" thing would be fine if she actually had decent ways to get in and/or keep the opponent off before she gets it. Right now she is super gimped prior to getting GA, if the opponent turtles and/or rushes down you're kinda screwed. Also an air teleport (that isn't D) would be nice but not really necessary. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk