Justice7541

Yosuke's DP is 1f startup once triggered, it can't be safejumped unless you've already totally recovered by the time your attack hits him. It's also extremely active and relatively safe on block so your best bet is probably just to call out his DP outright and don't give him anything to counter at all. It's dumb but Yosuke is top tier for a reason.

Does anyone know the optimal Aki combos off SB Duck? Like off SB Duck 4A or whatever.

IIRC: Normal block: - 5A > 5AA - Anything > sweep - Anything > 236X - 236X > X followup IB: - Anything > 5B - Between first and second hits of 236X Also note: - 236B (spear pull) is +2 on block - 236X~B (Gigantic Attack) is +5 on block - Koro 5C/2C are +23 on block - 214X ("dogwheel") is absurdly + on block - 236X ("dogspin") is about the same as 5C/2C on block (i.e. not as advantageous as it looks) Obviously any of his gaps become safe if he uses Koro to cover it so it's a guessing game no matter what. I usually tell people to either try to IB DP his 5A > 5B (if possible), super his 236X startup, or just hold that shit and wait till he commits to a mixup with a larger gap. He usually needs to jump to do a mixup at which point there's either a gap before he jumps (while he's setting up Koro 214X usually) or during the jump mixup itself (i.e. as he's coming down). No 100% way to escape unfortunately, he can always bait you mashing him too hard. I also don't recommend trying to IB super his 236X pull since he's still mid-move and can OMC on reaction to the superflash and punish you. If you can reach him with IB DP (Yukiko can't) that's a different story.

Is it better to do 5B 5C 5B 2A+B 236B~delayB~C 214A~A or 5B 2B 5C 236B~B~C 236A~A~A? The latter seems to do more damage but it seems like the former is regarded as the BnB?

No, I know what you're trying to say, and I'm saying that most people do in fact define delay as lag. If there's choppiness etc. on top of said delay, then it's even worse lag, but a perfectly smooth game with a full second of delay is generally what people would in fact call laggy. Also, I've been wondering, but does anyone have a IRC channel or Skype group or anything along those lines for people to actively meet up, discuss the game, and find matches? I know there are a few Persona-related IRC channels but they're pretty dead. Anyone wanna start a new one? #p4au on Rizon or something?

What does 6A look like on hit now? I'm trying to imagine how it combos into 236B.

Pretty sure this is the common definition of lag. Things like choppiness or general slowdown are just a symptom of bad lag.

There's quite a few people clustered around 770 though. If it was matches played some of the guys with super high winrates would have PSRs in the thousands but that doesn't seem to be the case.

So I've been derping around with Sho as a sub for when Ken is too OP and I realized I have no idea how Sho baits DP. What are his DP-safe pressure strings? I assume any SB rekka or teleport?

It seems to cap out 770~ PSR. Seems like a bit of an arbitrary number but that's just how it is I guess.

I don't think Knuckle Train roll mixup works on block? It's purely an offensive thing. I was pointing out the 5C~roll thing as a defensive option.

So this is kinda obvious is retrospect but Ken can plink 5C~AC to do a roll covered by Koro attack. Good as a pressure escape plus if Koro actually counterhits them you can actually combo off it. Add "can combo off roll" as another of the silly Ken shouldn't be able to do.

I may not be the best authority on this since I seem to have Minazuki pegged as much weaker than a lot of other people in general, but I'm confident this much is true at least: - Ken's DP is high-risk, true, but it's not low-reward. In fact, it's pretty much the opposite, he can take a CH DP anywhere on screen into a full combo (about 2.5k meterless, I've gotten as much as 4.3k with 150 meter) and end it with setplay vortex. When in doubt, either play it safe by baiting it or at least do something that isn't likely to be counterhit, getting hit by Ken's DP sucks. - If you block Ken's DP, you need to dash up 5C as he comes down to punish. Alternatively, if Koromaru is close enough to you when you block his DP, you can disable him with 2A then punish with a normal that doesn't put you too close to him. Otherwise, Ken can cancel into SB Fire Breath shortly before touching the ground, which is + on block, or land into Thunder Reign, which hits behind him. - Ken's 5A is actually 1f faster than yours and it has really good range too. Minazuki's 5A will usually win in the general course but you have to space it well. If you are too close Ken can easily out-5A you into any of his unreasonably high-damage meterless confirms into setplay vortex and then you're dead and sad. - I notice you didn't mention 2B which is probably your best tool vs. Ken aerial approach in this matchup. Ken's j.B is huge but the hurtbox is actually pretty bad, so he will normally rely on Koro to cover him as he jumps in. Minazuki/Sho 2B easily stuffs both Koro and Ken at the same time due to its huge hitbox, long active frames, and loads of head invul. Just be careful that he doesn't start baiting it by faking an air approach and landing into 5B or something.

Probably not a bad idea to ask in the matchups discussion for Chie, yeah. I can tell you that you can roll both the spear pull and the Gigantic Attack, if that is helpful, and if Ken does B pull or B Gigantic, you should have plenty of time to punish him if he doesn't immediately cover with Koromaru, who will most likely already have been committed to another action. Strictly speaking though there's no guaranteed punish vs. Ken unless Koro is disabled since outside of certain move recoveries (DP, AOA, hop/roll, etc.) he can pretty much always use Koro to cover his unsafe moves.

He has frametrap but he doesn't really have mixup in the sense of opening you up. The longer you block the better it gets for you because he is expending meter and other resources keeping that pressure going while you're just taking it easy regenerating Koro gauge. He does have his command throw but the range isn't that long, it's not Assimilation by any means. If he does start trying to set you up for it you can very easily call it and fatal punish it for free huge damage. "No" mixup might be a bit of an exaggeration but his mixup game definitely isn't very good, and it's extremely risky to do whenever you do decide to go for it, which is not really an advantageous situation to be in when it's "your turn" versus a character whose turn never ends once it starts. At the very least, if you're playing vs. Minazuki, you absolutely should be blocking his mixup because he's really got nothing insanely strong that is capable of bypassing your defense if you just block well. He's not Aigis, at any rate. Minazuki's normals are also absolute ass on whiff so you should be taking advantage of that. He may recover faster on paper but he doesn't have a puppet cover his move recoveries for him so... His one good normal is 2B which has a pretty ridiculous AA hitbox, but so long as you prevent him from autopiloting into it (Koro 5C is a good choice for that) there isn't much he can actually challenge you with. Ken's normals are really, really really really really REALLY good.

Does that actually work off j.2B? That is like Ken's worst starter. And if it does work from j.2B I bet you could squeeze in even more with a j.B starter.

It's not a meaty but they shouldn't have much room to wiggle out; they should only have a couple of frames to act with a standing action + a few extra if the action can be done from crouch. Most actions that would evade/disable Koro won't work to get them out because you can always just land and punish. For example, if Akihiko tries to do 236C/D, I'm reasonably sure you could just 5A or j.B punish just like against a roll, and similarly I don't think 5C or 2C would reach you since there's at least 2 character lengths of space between the two of you. I can't test that at the moment since I'm not at home, but I can at least say that if the opponent does have some option to get out of the looser setup, the tighter (lower-damage) route (236A~A 236C, 236B~A, 214C oki) should equally well since Koro should be able to hit meaty.

It depends on the setup. That's why I recommend neutral/back jumping instead of going forward, since that allows you to bait out more air unblockable stuff. Akihiko's DP will also whiff in the case of the setups I posted above simply because he's too far away. What Akihiko actually can do though is parry into Corkscrew or Upper, that's caught me off-guard a few times, although it is also baitable if you just land and block on reaction to his parry. Offhand I'm also not sure what the other fast huge AUB supers capable of reaching Ken at that distance would be. Mitsuru's is the only one I can think of offhand.

So I've been playing this matchup a bit more and it's actually pretty easy. To be fair the average Minazuki player on netplay is not very good but I still wouldn't say this matchup is in his favor. 1) He has above-average normals but Ken's are better in general. All his good pokes are also REALLY unsafe on whiff (almost as bad as Ken's but without the option of Koro cover) so its very easy to bait him into trying to take out Koro and then CH punishing him with 5B or 236X for huge damage. 2) He has like no mixup. His command throw is going to be your biggest concern but it deals relatively low damage. I believe he can OMC it into moderate damage (<3k) in the corner but in general Minazuki lacks mixup options unless he gets you mashing and scores a counterhit. Meanwhile Ken hits like a truck off pretty everything (even just a CH DP) so the risk/reward is pretty heavily weighted in your favor. 3) Minazuki's teleport is sort of a problem but DP is actually a pretty good counter to it, as is most of the other stuff mentioned above. SB teleport can bait it but given the damage + oki you will get off any successful AA CH with Ken the guessing game isn't actually as favorable for Minazuki as I originally expected it to be. 4) You can pretty much spam heal for free vs. Minazuki and he can't do anything about it. Sending Koro in with 2C/5C then pressing 214A/B almost always works in my experience. Either he wastes time stuffing Koro (and you heal it back up), he tries to teleport preemptively and gets stuffed by Koro, or he blocks and you get that heal out free. His sword wave super might be a problem if calls out your heal in advance but I've recovered and blocked it plenty of times too so it seems like he's got to call it out pretty early if he wants to punish.

Er yeah good catch,

I don't think it''s necessarily that bad, but I play against Yukari a lot cause one of the guys from locals mains her. Here's just some random stuff I've noted: - Her 5C(? the wind orb) will stuff your normals at match start if you try to press anything. 5C will beat it and take a Persona card though plus she can't do anything to punish it even if she doesn't 5C. - If she has a wind ball out, running at her at an angle overly horizontal to it is a bad idea. If the orb is above you or something, you can safely run forward as Ken runs fast enough to avoid the homing shots so long as they aren't coming from directly in front of/behind him. - Ken's j.B has a huge upward hitbox above him, you can actually tag her out of the air from below if she tries to jump and set up wind ball zoning or something. - Mashing 2C at neutral doesn't seem like a terrible idea in this matchup. Koro will basically either hit her (and clear her wind orbs as well as break a card) or otherwise force her to block. Worst case scenario, Koro runs into a low wind orb and takes a bit of damage and clears it for you so you're clear to approach. - Yukari has a lot of ways to hit Koro but she doesn't really deal enough damage overall to kill him easily. Sneaking in a Mediarama from time to time to keep Koro up works pretty well provided you cover it with Koro actions properly (i.e blocked 2C > Mediarama) since you will almost always make a net gain in health for both you and Koro. The exception is Magarula so make sure you hold D during the superflash for that to unsummon Koro.

Ken's 25 is pretty easy too, it's just 236236C+D 2B j.A j.B JC j.B j.2B 2C DP 214214A+B.

GuanglaiKangyi here. Been playing Ken moreso than Rise lately but I wouldn't mind being added to this chat as well.

Okay so airdash j.A is, near as I can tell, godly and pretty much the best mixup tech I've come up with so far. Super easy to autopilot too: Setup 1: From any combo ending in j.2B 236D 236B~A > late 214C (timing should be just about when Koromaru starts running back after 236D and is able to connect with 214C non-meaty), neutral jump Possible scenarios: 1) They mash DP = it will whiff or can be blocked on reaction 2) They mash AA = it will hit Koromaru but you can land 5B or airdash j.A for punish 3) They roll, you punish with land 5A or airdash j.A (midscreen, they don't go far enough to cross you up; in corner you have to react to the roll with land 5A) 4) They respect 214C and block it, you airdash on the way down from your jump > either immediate j.A or delay j.A land 2A. Immediate j.A hits overhead 3 times, delay j.A hits overhead twice and low. Very hard to react to.since 214C obscures Ken Note: Won't work on anyone who can simultaneously hit both you and Koromaru safely on wakeup, i.e. Mitsuru can do Bufudyne (huge AUB reversal), Marge/Adachi might be able to 2B j.C to get out (haven't tested this extensively) Setup 2: In corner, end any combo with 2B j.A(2) j.B JC j.B 236D j.2B forward jump j.B j.2B 214C, then either jump back or crouch block Possible scenarios: 1) You jump back > same set of options as above 2) You crouch block (mostly to bait stuff like Mitsuru Bufudyne) > confirm Koromaru connects > IAD j.A 2A (immediate j.A = hits once, delay j.A = hits twice) Note: Crouch block loses to wakeup mashing since you're right next to them (214C will stop if you get hit) so mix it in with meaties Setup 3: From any blockstring where you can make them respect 236X~B (which isn't super hard unless they're mashing reversals like crazy), input 214D early (before the Gigantic Attack comes out), confirm that Koromaru connects, IAD j.A > mixups from Setup 2 above. Note: It's hard to make B Gigantic > 214D airtight and still get an unDPable IAD j.A. Easier to delay 214D slightly so that their only option is to roll out, then you can just 5A punish if they do and do the mixup as normal if they don't. Need to test this more in general in locals where reacting to mixups is actually possible (I was having a super hard time blocking in training mode with the dummy set to replay randomly but I'm a scrub in general) but it works in netplay lol. Then again no one knows what they're doing in netplay so.

Ken's jump forward airdash j.B > j.2B overhead or 2A low is actually sort of a legit mixup off dogewheel or 2C lockdown. The opponent also has to be watching for it moreso than usual since the high/low mixup isn't as immediately obvious since Ken starts the airdash from so high up, so people don't immediately expect to have to fuzzy block it. It's also nice because the timing of whether j.2B will hit or land-cancel-whiff varies both on how high up you are when you airdash and how quickly you press j.B after starting the dash, so it becomes hard to tell whether it's going to come out or not. I personally have just been inputting both as a pseudo-OS cause even I can't tell.