CrimsonDisaster

reserved for: what beats what (generally) problematic moments (dealing with pressure) specific scenarios part 1

- Basic Info - (A) Overview Best abare in the game vs. best offense in the game. You typically outpoke Eddie's normals, but his moves will beat yours in specific circumstances and his special "pokes" are really dangerous. More importantly, he has a pet and he can fly. This changes a lot of poke/anti-air timings and lets him get away with being a bit dumber than anybody else. That said, your normals still cream his- he has to be tricky, you just need to have half a brain. All other things being equal, you have the normals to keep yourself out of trouble so long as you don't get mixed up... until he gets tension or safely gets the summon out. When one of these happens (you screw up, he gets tension/summon), the whole matchup changes. He dominates the match while the shadow is out- in non-pressure situations, killing it safely becomes your first priority, not getting hit by it/forcing him to use it up if you can't kill it. Should you find yourself in pressure- good luck. Good blocking only goes so far, with his command throw and unblockables. Look for escape points or create your own, but mix it up since he'll be mixing it up, and it's better to block a 6K than be looking really hard for a backdash point and getting hit anyhow. Eddie doesn't have a real answer to your pressure, though. He can mash 2P, wakeup super, or wakeup FD jump. None of those are safe or good at all. Some Eddie players will refuse to stop mashing for whatever reason, and it works more than it should because his 2P is so good... but just adjust your timing, sigh and CH him into all of his life. (B) Matchup ratio: Ogawa says it's 5:5 - 4:5. Your results may vary but that's about right. © Top 5 moves in matchup (IMHO) Eddie: 1) summon -S- 2) (FB) drill 3) flying 4) 2H 5) 623S (honorable mention - 2P) Slayer: 1) 5K 2) jH 3) 2S 4) jK 5) 2P (honorable mention - BBU) (D) Turning points... in Eddie's favor: - knockdown - safe fullscreen summon - start blockstring in Slayer's favor: - major CH - corner knockdown - force Eddie to jump without summon Some combos that really hurt CH 2S or 6P->IAD H->5H->(j.S-j.K->5H)x3 or 4 ->IAD j.D CH 2H, 2D RC, CH j.H, CH it's late, whatever->lol (5H->j.S-j.K)x3 or 4->IAD j.D Really guys just j.S loop this guy. For real it's like 60% like no matter what. and doing IAD K-K is good for when you're kinda far away and still needing to combo. 5K->K mappa is amazing on eddie as well for aircombo.

the DC of Sol?

Yeah I figured the SRK wiki dudes were missing something. Jenet is too good to be in the same rank as Kain ;( I wouldn't really say it's any more balanced than any other high-BS-content game.

Jenet is actually pretty high up last I looked. I lost the link to the Howard Arena lists though. IIRC Kevin, Gato, and Jenet are the top 3 in some order but I don't have a source so don't quote me on that. -edit- SRK wiki puts Jenet in "upper tier" along with Jae, Grant, Gato, and Terry. Dunno if I believe that list entirely but the overall idea is pretty accurate IMHO.

Jae has some easy, strong, better-than-Dong's combos though.

That works on like everybody depending on the launcher. Just make sure you do jD as quickly as you can since it's a really lenient link but doing it too late will screw up the rest of the combo.

Grant is good because his c.A is +100000000000000000 or something. Easy links all over the place. Most notable is linking his spinny kick super. Much more reliable to fish for c.A hits while using his other moves to build meter/rushdown/whatever. Probably could add throws in there but I don't recall Grant players doing that a ton. I've NEVER seen a Grant player land any kind of CH to juggle combo in a real match.

uhhh nope ;( First off- given perfect execution but not stupid "oh just DP everything FOREVER" arguments, Buri still does less damage than the rest of the cast, still gets raped on impact, and still has issues properly setting up midscreen oki because that isn't a matter of "perfect play" so much as perfect circumstances. So he zones well or runs away well. He doesn't even have to mess up to lose, though. As to Slayer, BDC doesn't give enough invul to cover startup-to-active time for any of Slayer's moves. It's enough to sometimes dodge not-very-meaty moves if timed really well, but yeah. This isn't #R. In a "perfect play level" people can backdash a lot of his mixup and FD when they have to jump or tech. What then? He wins the same way he wins now, superior normals, fishing for counter-hits, creating openings in strings with FD/IB/SB, and generally playing safe till he gets his shot to do big damage. Venom would still have poor options to break out of pressure, he would still do good damage in a retarded damage game. He would just do what he already does, better. So would everybody else in "perfect play." The fact of the matter is that there's no such thing as "perfect level play" because that's the theory fighter dream of "don't get hit, never let them get close, always successfully mix up, beat out all their moves, parry out of pressure 100% of the time." It doesn't happen and it has no bearing on a tier list because EVERY character is top tier when nobody can hit them and nobody can block them. Tier lists are generally based on the realistic limit we can see a character reaching in relation to the rest of the cast. Realistically speaking, Eddie pressure is simply the best in the game and every escape requires a guess, and sometimes the best you can do is eat an unblockable a certain way to take less damage. Realistically speaking, Slayer has a lot of crazy high-priority moves that murder you on counter-hit, and has the defensive moves and defensive modifiers to hold out until he can kill you in 2-3 combos. Realistically speaking, Jam is fast enough to go around zoning and kill you. Realistically speaking, Sol VVs get baited as often as they land, Dizzy and Chipp die in two combos, Axl's pokes get dodged and his up-close game is risky/bad, Johnny's combos don't do enough for their tension cost and his 1-hit -> mist setups are throwable unless he wastes even more tension. Realistically speaking, the best I-No player is a guy who constantly wakes up with reversal TK vertical Chemical Love and loses for it. How much value a particular person places on particular character strengths and how much a particular person will devalue/ignore particular character strengths plays a big part in the details of a tier list (who's better than who), but the broad categories (who's best, who's worst, who's stuck in between) are pretty straight-forward simply based on who is strong and who is not.

NYC has been playing this game for almost a year now, Austin and Houston got the game before NYC did... the scene is definitely older than 4 months ;( Console release on the other hand... ;( It doesn't take terribly long to get proficient if you have people to play against and push yourself to not settle for the easy way out all the time. Force yourself to learn the combos and the details of the game and it's a lot more fun anyhow.

I do that a lot to be a jerk. Knockdown, dash behind (x1-2), S Dandy. A little risky against people who mash all the time and stuff, but occasionally it's just the gimmick you need. Also FDC K Dandy to bait out throw break attempts every now and then.

Stone for some reason I think this one Korean SC player looks like you.

Zappa does pretty decent damage with sword, dog (infinites, instant dizzies of CH 2H, etc.), and Raou (of course), ghosts aren't super awesome for damage but they do enough given that they're generally more of a zoning/fillscreenwithcrap summon. The problem isn't necessarily weaknesses in Zappa (though he has some), it's more that the rest of the cast is that much stronger.

exactly

yes it does

then don't run throw, just dash throw???

yeah you both mash a lot ;o

A Saki player did some fancy plant combos in SBO top 8. He lost. What little you gain in the way of fancy combos and unblockables/mixups you lose in any other kind of utility out of your arcana. Oh well maybe it'll be improved a lot in AH2. In the original, Kira was top tier because of crazy long loop combos that hurt, resets off those loops that would kill you, priority, and people weren't as good at fighting through clashes and stuff back then. Just imagine if MvC2 Sentinel also had Magneto's ROM infinite, a command grab, and was a loli in a blob, and that's vanilla AH Kira.

It's not a roll, it's a command dash with some invul that you can do whatever you want to out of (like using AB rolls to do dash DP with Haoh instead of manually dashing). There's a lot more flexibility with it than the standard roll... costing a bit of meter isn't that big a deal, meter builds super fast in this game anyhow.

Because the good players "spam heavies and qcf's."

Whoops, thanks for pointing that out.

To extend on what pbjmixxa said: Heart has a stronger ground game, mostly due to her crazy good normals. 6B and (dash) 5C stand out the most because of crazy range, priority/clash judgment, and how well they set up her offense. Saki doesn't really have anything on the ground that's comparable. It's just plain harder to fight Heart on the ground than it is to fight Saki. Both of them have really good anti-airs in their 5A... but Heart also has 5B (huge hitbox and it clashes really well), 6B (for the same reasons it's a great poke), and a DP/super. There's not really a contest when it comes to clashing, either. Heart is better at forcing clashes, and Heart is way better at winning clashes. Heart has all the standard clash stuff and a non-super DP (as well as a super)- this is important because they can't just block/HC on reaction to a super flash if you just DP them. Saki's best options are clash-confirm super, mash A in mid-air, or just hope her post-clash move is faster... standard options but not terribly good, especially since she doesn't really have any good clash-anticipation strings like some other characters do. Then there's other little things like how, despite doing practically the same combos, Heart inexplicably does more damage (for the same meter/homing cost) most of the time. How Saki's knockdown combo leaves her way up in the air when her opponent ground recovers whereas Heart's ends in her divekick so she ends up landing about the same time. Saki does have a better high/low game thanks to her j3C, she gets a better combo off her neutral throw, her IAD combos are easier to do for some reason, and her super is a bit more spammable... and that's about all she has over Heart. Saki is better equipped to play the game like it's... something that isn't AH. Heart is better equipped to play AH.

Double post, but even with "upper mids" and crap, the list looks pretty much like: S: Liese A: Kamui, Heart, Lilica A-: Mei-Feng B+: Maori B: Saki, Konoha B-: Kira C: Yoriko C-: Fiona The funny thing is that the mid-tier is only big when you don't get specific. When you lump Maori and Kira into the mid, it's actually a mid-tier. When you get specific about it, all of a sudden you realize that the "mid" is actually the bottom half of the game.

Answering you and Necrosis all at once! Anybody who seriously thinks it's "too hard to tier" AH at this point is kidding themselves. Some characters are clearly better than the rest. Others are clearly worse than the rest. Unfortunately it's the case where 5 characters are clearly better than everybody, 2 characters are clearly the worst... leaving 4 characters in the middle to "debate" over, except at that point they are pretty clearly just the middle group. You can argue about the exact order (which is a bit up in the air) but there are pretty distinct cut-off points. Liese is the best at this point; Kamui, Heart, and Lilica are clearly better than the rest. Try to argue that they aren't. As a group, they consistently do more damage in more situations with better pokes, better setups, and at least one thing they are way better at the cast at. They even have the best stupid cheesy BS. Mei-Feng does huge damage in a lot of different situations, and it's more important to do damage in "random" situations than off 2ABC 6D IAD loop so she's a step up from the rest (bottom of A rank or top of B rank, pretty much). She's probably the best character in the game at that particular facet of the game. She's also pretty solid in every other aspect of the game. 5th best character, regardless of that makes her A/A- or B+, pretty much. At worst, she's like B+ with Maori, if you are being generous to Maori. Maori is cool and all, 1-minute combos for life, but her offense isn't that great (she throws a ton of stuff at you that is all blockable the same way, oh noes) so she typically has to land some situational combo starter; when her combos are so finicky to begin with (spacing/height/arcana specific), that's problematic. Also you don't always have a minute to spare. Still, her options on defense are great and the combos are crazy damage + meter if you land them. She's a great character who just isn't quite as good as the top 4. Saki and Konoha are good and all, but they aren't as good as the people above them. Saki needs to get close because her pokes aren't great, her clash game isn't great, she doesn't even have good un-air-blockables... all she really has is a nice high/low/throw mixup that leads to average-ish damage. Konoha is heavily Arcana dependent to do good damage; given her poor defense modifier, she just takes more work to finish someone off with before they finish her off. Also her clash game got weakened (jB has less clash judgment, for example) and she has issues when getting rushed down due to her relatively sucky defensive options (mostly has to rely on her arcana). Kira. I personally don't think she's as good as, say, Maori. But she's better than Yoriko/Fiona. She's a scary character who forces people to change the way they play, she has all the tools to dominate a match once she has the momentum... but it's hard for her to get that momentum, and it's really easy for her to fall behind as well. Yoriko and Fiona are the two worst characters in the game. Argue order all you want, they are the bottom two and that's what counts. It's semantics to argue if they are both bottom tier or just the bottom of the lowest tier. Yoriko is only good with pentagram activated (which means she actually needs to do it, and then she's only good for a short time) and Fiona is just not as good as everybody else in the things that are important. If her moves were a bit faster, or if she did a bit more damage, or if she could special cancel her j2C, or if any number of little things were improved, then she would be floating in the middle instead of being a bottom feeder.

Explain why or die in obscurity. In any case that list makes sense to me, other than Fiona being worse than Yoriko but I guess Yoriko has some tricks and gimmicks.