lunaris

i have a friend that plays tsubaki and i'm curious as to why there's no/not much mention of the combo part 623d>j.236d>j.214d>22d>etc. around here. it seems like it's always her highest damage combo by a considerable margin(500+), usually doing around 5k. am i missing something? and there are only four tsubaki install combos listed in the collection thread even though there are many potential different kinds and they can all be done off of 2 or so meter(2.5 if you add in 214d before the 623d) for 5kish damage anywhere on the screen. ex. 5b>2c>tsubaki install>623/214d>etc. and the most damage you can get off 22d midscreen is 22d>tsubaki install>6c(1)>214d>623d>j.236d>j.214d>236d>dash2cc>air combo, but i don't see mention of it.

sort of funny combo. might prove useful at some point in your life. sorry if it's been mentioned before. (corner) mizuchi rekkazan>rc during pullback>backdash>4/6dx2>jyakou>2b>5c>jc>j.cx5>2c>4d~d>j.cx10>j.214b (~4.1k) the backdash isn't needed, but it helps. mizuchi rekkazan itself does about 2300, so this is a substantial damage increase. style points?

are there any videos of people using this crossup? or have people around here started using it? i've never seen it so i figured i'd post it. i searched for "crossup" and never saw anyone talk about this method specifically. vs an enemy in the corner: 5d>C activation>j.2c(front)/slightly delayed j.5b(back) the crossup itself happens very fast. i'm not sure if it's possible to frame trap them if they try to jump away on reaction to being hit by the drive, though. instead of doing j.2c it's possible to simply whiff a throw and do 5b, which will net you more damage but will be slower. i found you can also do it by using 2d directly above them, but i'm not as positive on the method for that. i suppose that would make it more ambiguous, but it generally seems like you have to delay it in order to get the xup.

confirming yes, on both 1 and 2. make sure you get off the IAD(9>6) quickly. you don't do the j.b in 3c>iad>j.b as fast as possible. the later the better, so you have more time to get off the 5b when you get to the ground. on that thought, if i remember right it helps if you can wait for litchi to turn around after the dash so that you get j.b's frontal hitbox. i don't think that's a requirement unless you're very close, however. it may be one for some characters. and advance input would help on the j.b>5b, but really the main problem in that combo is simply getting off the 3c>iad fast enough. be mindful of which side you'll end up on when doing 5b; you don't want to get crossed up on your itsuu input. the only other thing to say about that is that it may be slightly character specific; i'm not sure if it always works on lamda, for example. i know it works on raw or CH 3c, though.

for the itsuuA loop vs lamda in the corner, you need to be quick with the 6kote and the following 5c. i strongly advise using advance input. the only other thing i can advise is that it's best to hit with 2c[m] as late as possible after staff2 and to hit with itsuuA such that the enemy is at the highest point possible(i.e later>sooner); the purpose of both of those pieces of advice is to make it so you have as much time as possible to recover from the 6kote before lamda hits the ground. about your second problem, there is simply a certain delay on the kote>falling j.C. you have no option but to learn it, i've never heard of any trick. the only "trick" i can give you is, again, to use advance input on the 5c to make sure it comes out as soon as possible. someone correct me if i'm wrong here, but another option is hj>j.C>falling j.C; it's useful if you can't afford to move the staff back any further, but you could use it as an alternative if you don't want to do the 4kote version(but keep in mind the staff should generally be set to 4kote). shounen's combo does not have a 5b in it. if you use 5b, you will be too far because it causes you to lose the running momentum that carries you far enough to connect with the second j.c>5c>j.b>etc. so, replace 5b with 6c(1 hit)>Xkote>dash>...etc. try using advance input for the second j.c and its following 5c. make sure the dj>j.C happens as quickly as possible. vs lamda, you may have to delay the falling j.c(which would make advance input unusable).

well, when you hit with an anti air ouroboros it's possible to simply do x(preferably one attack)>j.214b>rc>backdash/dj>4d~d>jyayoku or 5c>ouroboros air combo. i haven't tested how much doing jyayoku can net you, but if they're low on health it's probably more likely to kill them than 5cx10. or you could use it to cement a life lead. chances are if you try to do a j.5c air combo before the j.214b, proration will prevent you from doing much of anything afterwards. whatever the case, if you're going to use 100 meter on a j.214b combo it had better be justified. either way, if you have meter, instead of going for j.214b it's usually better to go for jyakou>rc, but sometimes the enemy's position relative to yours prevents you from doing so.

you're right, and that explains 2a's proration. i'd like to believe i knew that at some point(since i've seen the formula before) but forgot along the way. thanks for pointing it out. i'm surprised there hasn't been a program created to calculate viable combos and such. seems like it wouldn't be too difficult(especially now that time is no longer a variable) given that the formulas are available.

i went ahead and tested it, and after a throw, arakune's 2c does 560 damage(1610-1050), which is approximately 70% of its maximum damage according to the mook(800). strangely enough off of 2a it does 544 damage, even though it says 2a has 80% proration. so, the throw does effectively prorate 70% unless maybe you can combo off the first hit. as to the super combo, it didn't seem to work on any other hit confirmable strings, so it looks like it's limited to 6b and the throw. i tested the following and they all fail on the last j.a>j.c: 2ax2, 5ax2, 2b>2a, and 2a>5b(although i didn't test exactly one hit). it goes blue even if i try to skip out on the first j.a by simply doing 5d>j.c. i didn't compare the double super combo that kousaka posted, but if it works for 2ax2 then it's probably better overall. it would be timing sensitive and probably highly character specific both in its timing and viability, however. on a note unrelated to combos, i'm glad to see that j.d has +8 frame advantage on block. i think it's just about the only "safe" thing we can do meterless for 100 curse. but if the enemy's mashing to get out of a combo, chances are they'll hit you if you try to do j.d anyways. it'll definitely work as a bad player killer, though.

thanks. but then as part of a combo, it says 100*70. since the throw is two hits(is it even possible to RC the first?), could it mean that its second hit prorates 70%? which would mean the throw essentially has 70% proration unless you can combo out of the first hit. for now i'll edit it out of my other post to avoid any misunderstanding if the JP wiki happens to be wrong, but i'd like to test this myself if the wiki and mook disagree with each other over what may be a technicality(since the second hit of the throw technically can't be the "start" of a combo and therefore would have no listed starting proration).

on the jp wiki(http://www14.atwiki.jp/arakune/pages/64.html) it reads: 技　　　 単発　　 始動　　 乗算 ... 投げ　　 1050　　 70　　　 70 is it outdated/inaccurate? i haven't seen ara's frame data from the mook yet.

yeah. this is actually what the RC is for, it's not for getting off the 5d. you can actually RC the super on the second hit(before beam comes out) and link into 5d, but i haven't tested the maximum hits you can do for certain moves. i know that it can be done off of 6b with easy hit confirmation, which may make it useful if 2b>2a can't be used to do this. 6b has 71% initial proration, so i if i understand CS' proration system correctly anything under that mark can combo into super>100% curse if used as a starter. i'll test when i get the chance. those kinds of combos are definitely preferable since they don't waste as much of the super's damage, but i imagine there are many situations/characters where they're just not possible.

well, a use for it in CT is as follows: j.b>b bug only requires 3 hits from j.b(provided the camera isn't zoomed out due to your height). so, you can use j.c to both cancel the unnecessary hits of your j.b and summon a c bug to go into a combo. i'm not sure if the b bug will link with the c bug, but i know it does if you use 5c(which is a lot better than needing to use 2 or 5a). also, has it been posted that you can rc the super from a throw for 100% curse(untested on some characters, like carl)? it doesn't work without RC on characters like tager as far as i know. on some you can do it without RCing from a 4throw by simply moving arakune backwards(and still getting the last few hits in). i haven't been able to test if proration allows for this from attacks like 2a/2b/5a/etc when linked directly to super yet, however. judging from the fact that such combos aren't written on the JP wiki, i would guess not, but you never know. being able to combo 100 curse from some of ara's mixup attacks would be pretty powerful.

yes. it had/has other uses as well, such as making it easier to get a throw in(like once per match, or opponent) and forcing your opponent to block low earlier than they would normally have to. in CT i also used it as a last-minute method of getting a 6]c[ bug out if i was pressuring with j.b in the corner, although more than an advanced technique it was simply pressing the c button. i haven't tested it but i suspect this could be useful in getting off j.b>2a>2c>RC combos, as i've noticed that it's easier to tech j.a>j.c in this game. i'm not sure if cancelling j.b early would give you enough time to pull off 2a though.

i don't disagree with you, but i'm going to talk more about it anyways. i thought that was weird too. even if he thought souji was going to rapid cancel j.c or something, he should have been able to easily react to the j.214c or dive. it's either a strange example of dora being dora, or he may have been hoping he could keep his burst. bursting in such a situation is extremely obvious, so he may have been hoping that souji would drop the combo on his own predicting a burst. since dora beats both fumo and souji on a seemingly regular basis(correct me if i'm wrong; this is one of the few times i've seen them beat him), it's difficult for me to believe that he didn't understand what was going on after getting hit by j.c(it's a death warrant). unless he was just hoping he could save his burst, i can't see why he wouldn't have bursted either the easily-reactable dive or j.214c. nobody's perfect, i guess, or maybe he was simply beyond me in thought. the answer probably lies somewhere in between a combination of typical dora life lead shenanigans, not expecting to actually be reset, and a simple mistake/bad judgment call. he did burst after the j.214c, but it looked too slow to be on reaction to it.

these two matches are amazing. it's felt to me like fumo has been ahead of souji in CS, but souji still makes for an impressive watch even if that's the case. http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm10048078 ^souji vs nao, souji vs firumu i don't know why firumu made the choices there that lost him the game, but the amount of overheads souji reactively blocked in the match vs nao was crazy as was the beginning of the third round. i am kind of curious about why he doesn't use j.c in his wheel combos, though... EDIT: wow, nevermind. every single one of his videos in that tournament set was amazing. is it just me or has he improved a lot recently? it's good to see arakunes finally beginning to exploit the potential of curse mode for resets; up until now it seemed people would only try to reset during his basic mixup in order to get good starting proration on one combo(as opposed to purposely dropping a combo after squeezing a bit of damage out of it). if you don't know what i'm talking about, he purposely drops and resets the last combo against Dora here: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm10049241 . if i'm not mistaken, the bird>wheel is done to make it so dora would land with arakune also at minimum height(otherwise he would have had to do the wheel while rising).

yes. just TK the itsuu after 6b. both itsuu B and C can combo from it. itsuuB is a little more reliable for various reasons(6b does not combo into itsuuC at some ranges being the biggest one), but does a little less damage. sample combos are as follows: --itsuuC [corner] 2b>6b>itsuuC>hatsu>riichiA>ippatsuA>8>j.c>j.d>j.c>6b/6c>itsuuA>etc. <this also seems to be the highest damage option off of 5b>5c, by the way. --itsuuB [back to wall] 2b>6b>itsuuB>dash 6c(1)>6kote>delay(so stick can land) haku>riichiA>ippatsuA>ippatsuB>6b>5d>haku(TK needed?)>chun>staff2>6c>delayed tsubame(~3.3k) [corner] standard haku>chun corner combo. itsuuA works but it appears the damage difference is very small. about videos: there's a lot of interesting stuff in shounen's recent videos, such as a number of different methods of using chun to put the enemy back in the corner which i suspect may already be known(i've known about using it for that purpose, but not some of his combos). about the itsuuA corner combo: for those of you struggling with this combo vs lamda and similar characters, here are some tips: 1) crouch barrier as you land after doing 5d>j.c. 2) delay 5d>j.c as much as possible. 3) sometimes standing still for a second after you fall before moving helps when finishing with 6c. 4) i'm not sure about this, but jumping straight up when doing 5d>j.c may help if nothing else is working. i don't know how other people are doing with the combo, but i can't get off more than 2 2c[m]s(counting 5b[m]>2c[m]) if i start it with 5b on lamda. about 4d: can anyone improve on this? [back to wall] 4d>6kote>j.b>2c>3c>2d+haku>hatsu>chun(delay?)>6c(1)>itsuuA>dash 2c>6c>3c>etc(4kote?)(~3k) i also thought of (after itsuua) 4kote>dash 3c>2d>6c, but that either ends with the staff spinning or without knockdown. EDIT: the post was pretty messy, so i truncated and cleaned it up. if some of it is already known/common knowledge please say so so i can erase more.

you can do 2c>(delay)4d~a>4d~a>jyakou>rc>j.6d>5c>2c(some characters dont need this)>4d~a>4d~d>air combo(~4.6k) after the RC, instead of j.6d it's possible to use 214d~c, but i haven't tested the damage difference. you could add in 236236b after(or probably before) j.6d for extra damage as well.

Here's a new AK thread. We need every single player we can get, and I wouldn't want to miss someone who happens to be looking at this forum and doesn't know about other AK gaming outlets. The group of people I play BB with are in Anchorage. There are about five people I know who actually play BB, and some others who play off and on. Regrettably, I don't play GG anymore myself, but I can point you to people who might be interested in it. So, if you're a BB player living in AK and you see this thread, post here and we can talk about getting things going. Same with GG, but I'll have to point you elsewhere since the people who would want to play don't frequent DL, to my knowledge.

i think you may be thinking of 2b>5c>(2c?>)TK hirentotsu>236236b>etc. used to pick up an opponent who chooses to stay on the ground. i'm not sure what the damage is compared to simply doing, say, 2b>5c>super, but that would probably alter the timing of whatever your followup was due to the height difference in a way that would be small and hard to adjust to. i'm almost positive i learned this from zakiyama vs kaqmen, and this could be what you saw(i've never seen him do a longer combo into TK 214d, it would just prorate too bad).

for those of you posting about why 5c doesn't connect OTG sometimes vs hakumen and ragna, it's because there are two different OTG hitboxes: one face-down, one face-up. for some characters 5c connects OTG on one but not the other. to see this, hit ragna down with staffless 3c, wait, then try to do 5c. it won't connect. then hit with 3c>2b, wait, then try again. it will connect, as this is the face-up hitbox. as to kenny's combo: as LK was saying it seems like the combo is actually not workable on characters who can't be hit OTG by 5c. it works up until the 5c>5d>j.c>itsuuA>kote, but at least on jin, it seems like you don't have enough time to get off 5c before he becomes OTG. i found that i could get that time by adding in 2c[m] into the loop after j.C, but i'm not sure how that affects the number of reps. i was able to get 5.7k(rounded) after 2+finisher. so, omitting the combo opener, as a combo part it would look like this: ippatsuA>7jc>j.D>j.C>6B>(itsuuA>6kote>5C>5D>j.C>2C[m])*x>6C>(6d(optional; daisharin possible)>itsuuC>6C>kote) you can also use 6B instead of 2c[m], but i haven't tested that yet. is there some sort of other adjustment i'm not making? according to your notation, kenny, if you don't do 2c before itsuuA, it's done very low to the ground and it just doesn't seem to provide enough time for 5c against all characters. maybe i'm just being too slow.

i see no reason to use j.214a as oki given what i just posted about 236d. i guess it has one advantage in that on midscreen CH it yields meterless damage, but it is unsafe on block at most spacings and probably always unsafe on instant block. as to j.214a as an anti-air: if i understand you correctly, if they decide to block, hitting them with the top of the kick simply adds more to their already considerable frame advantage. it's risky at best and i don't think it would counter anything that hazama's other anti air counters wouldn't(and for far less risk). i've tried to think of some uses for it myself but all i can come up with is either a meterless shoryu punisher(depending on its proration) or an air-to-ground attack vs characters who don't have many good means of punishing it at its max range(arakune?).

i've found the following bug combo in the corner: d bug>a+b bug>c bug>repeat(all bugs are their 6 version) with delays marked: d bug>(delay until after initial hit)>a+b bug>(delay)>c bug>(smaller delay)>repeat it's also possible to add in extra a bugs after the c bug for more damage. i suppose it'd be most useful either when your opponent gets guard crushed(as d bug guard crushes), a bug hits in the corner(you'd probably have to adjust depending on the bug), you use an offensive burst in the corner, or you want an anti-burst combo in the corner. i suppose if you were really good at it it may be possible to use it to try multiple cloud summons in an attempt at getting a cloud that will near-guarantee recurse, since you can end the combo in a knockdown. whether that would be worth giving up wheel or dive damage is another question. you can change this into a wheel/dive loop at any point a D bug hits. and yes, i have confirmed this(not that it is anything miraculous), but i don't have a video. highest i've gotten red was about 80 hits for ~6k dmg(starting with d bug). i haven't tested whether this is possible from a wheel loop or not, but i know fumo often does something similar(albeit short) at the end of his loops to buy time to set up a cloud/bell bug and position himself. i would also not be surprised if there is a midscreen version with a similar/identical(excepting delays) rotation.

in the hazama complete guide section i saw someone/some people saying it was unsafe on block but i have no idea how this is the case. it's fairly easy to space out the attack(in terms of time) so that it's not easy to instant block, and it seems completely safe on normal block(maybe not if you're right next to them), especially at longer ranges. i have been thinking about trying it as an anti-jab/mash/etc. in blockstrings, especially in the corner. on midscreen CH, you can RC it(confirmable if you see them do something before you execute 236d) into any combo you can do from 4bc. 3k+, or 4.2k+ using 100% if memory serves. on corner CH 236d has an easily confirmable wallbounce which allows you to do combos nearly identical to what you would do after 3c>214d~c in the corner. i believe they also do better damage than those combos, on average. if you're close enough, you can combo straight into 236236d, which makes a good finisher for people who save burst for the last round since you can do 236d(CH)>236236d>236236d>jyakou. i'd say 6c/3c may tend to be better options, but i think 236d outranges 3c, and 6c can be punished hard if predicted. of course, there's always the option of not doing any of these things.

i think we can safely assume the dive loop has been around for awhile(for starters, it's been in the wiki, hasn't it?). the idea has even been mentioned in a CS thread sometime last year. i highly doubt it will make the wheel loop obselete because the wheel loop results in better positioning and does very good damage itself(the one in the hakumen video did something between 9.2 and 9.8 if i remember right), and if it was going to i'd think it would have done so already. but if it really does do significantly better damage i can't imagine why we haven't seen it before this. it seems to have nearly equal gauge building potential. could we get a test done comparing a dive loop and wheel loop done under ideal conditions(start of curse, off of j.c, etc.)?

according to stunedge's post in general discussion(http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7828) the exact definition is 2 additional frames of recovery for every following move in the combo, so you can't expect anything too outlandish. apologies if this is outdated info. and skye, again according to stunedge's post, there is no reverse proration. unless new info has arisen, if i remember right that was just a guess people were making.