lunaris

is anyone working on translating those patch notes? or has it already been done? if so i may offer to do some, but if somebody's working on it i'll leave it alone. let's just hope it's been in work for awhile or something, and the reason they're not releasing it isn't because they hadn't started development yet on release(it seems to me like they had their hands full just getting the game out at all). although it won't matter for me since i live in the middle of nowhere and will get poor connections with everyone.

what is the damage on those combos? and yeah, koori, the most i've been able to get so far with kunagi is about 4.1k. i'm sure more is possible but the ceiling seems relatively low. getting out the 63214d super as fast as possible rewards the most damage now; the proration for some of her attacks seems to have changed from the demo. the really long combo i had that did about 3.2k(if i recall correctly) now does something in the low-mid 2ks. i'll have to test it again to be sure i'm right. unless the damage output of other characters like rouga has been reduced significantly she seems fairly weak for everything she's lost(specifically j.c's range, j.a>22c as an instant overhead, and maybe the old 214 attacks), although i don't have a good idea of the state of other characters either relative to the previous game. the new projectiles and maybe the trajectory on her 421 seem good.

the game seems to play much more smoothly now. perhaps it's just me having gotten used to it being slower, but i don't think so. it seems like they either implemented an aerial tech time proration system, or there is a cap of some sort on kunagi's attacks where her hitboxes simply no longer connect, perhaps after certain strings. for example, try doing 6a>421c~c>j.236a>repeat as many times as you can. you should find that no matter what you do the opponent is not attackable at the end of the third rep(for example, for the last rep you can try doing 6a>421c~c>22a>623a and it won't connect even if they haven't teched, and the projectile appears to simply completely whiff no matter how fast you pull it off). also, yeah, kunagi does still seem to have a j.c>j.a>j.c infinite(at least on rouga; i was able to get up to 40ish hits so far).

i don't think you need to do a j.5a. just cancel the landing lag of j.236a with any attack and repeat, you land fast enough to connect a 5a. i've confirmed this for at least 52 hits, so i don't think i'm wrong given how there's no relevant proration system in place. i'm a little surprised they haven't implemented a pushback system yet... sorry if this has been discussed, but is it just me or is this game significantly slower than the original? it feels like there is more hitstop or the cancellability frame on specials comes later or something. it's fine, but it feels a little sluggish to me. i don't think i've seen it mentioned here either, but it seems aja is planning the release for summer comiket and is renaming the game to BBB Revolve.

since nobody's really given a complete explanation on how the double j.b ender works, i'll add a few things to what's been said. this is going to be wordy, and probably poorly formatted. there are a number of factors that influence the success of the double j.b combo: 1. vertical distance of your opponent relative to you when you start the first [w]j.b: if valkenhayn is too high or too low, [w]j.b will whiff or the opponent will tech too fast 2. altitude of both you and your opponent when you start the 2nd [w]j.b: if the opponent is too low to the ground by the time you start the 2nd [w]j.b, there is nothing you can do. similarly, the lower valk is when the second [w]j.b starts, the less time there is has before he can do 5b. 3. proration of the combo: combos which climb to high altitudes and are above a certain proration level are usually either very difficult to use this ender with or sometimes impossible. if you're building a combo and run into the problem where they tech before they hit the ground, try finding ways to reduce the altitude of the combo, take moves out of the combo to reduce proration, or settle for [w]j.Xc>j.d>j.b>jc>j.b>j.c. factors influencing 1: A) the combo itself: does it use TK j.214b>d>[w]236a? did you use 2 [w]236x attacks or 3? etc. B) the delays on the 236x attacks: delaying more will cause both your opponent to fall lower and valkenhayn's position to change(further up if you delay 236b, 236a's effect varies depending on the combo) C) whether you used [w]j.5c or [w]j.7c D) the delay between [w]j.XC and [w]j.b: after doing [w]j.7c, delaying the [w]j.b will cause valkenhayn to fall faster than his opponent. after [w]5c, delaying [w]j.b will cause the opposite effect. factors influencing 2: A) again, the combo itself: certain combos will bring you to higher altitudes by nature B) the delay on the 2nd [w]j.b: causes the opponent to fall faster than valkenhayn(i believe) and is sometimes necessary so that the opponent won't tech before they hit the ground(since delaying the 2nd j.b results in less fall time before the opponent hits the ground) C) how long you delay the [w]j.XC if you were using 236b as the last 236X attack; delaying [w]j.XC after [w]236b causes valkenhayn to climb higher other stuff: double [w]j.b>d>5b>2c/5c>jc>j.b>j.214b>9d>d>j.b>jc>j.b>j.c>236236c will do slightly less damage than ending with the 632146d super, but will reward significantly more meter, so if you don't have full meter, i'd advise doing it when proration allows despite the damage difference. as another person said, there is no "trick"; the closest thing to a "trick" is simply knowing at what relative height you need to activate a j.Xc at, but even then there are at least 2 factors that determine whether it will work. i find that the combo generally works with [w]7c if the enemy is lower than you, and if the enemy is a little higher or at even level then [w]5c will work(but [w]5c will almost never work at higher proration). so, depending on the factors i listed at the beginning of my post, every combo is likely to be a little different and you will just have to get a good sense of when to activate different moves depending on spatial judgment. hope this helps someone.

LK is pretty much right. i don't really know of any solid high/low mixup resets, but i suppose it could be instructive to note some resets that often work against lower level players depending on your level of skill/knowledge(this is the litchi basics thread, right?). 1. if you know a person doesn't really know how to tech right and you want an easy win, it's possible to reset at the end of a midscreen combo by using 2c[m] after staff2, but that's not really likely to work against a better player as most good players will barrier tech. EX: see any midscreen combo where you end in staff2>6c>tsubame. replace 6c>tsubame with dash>delay>2c[m]; at the right timing it should hit them coming out of tech, backward or neutral(may depend on height and timing). 2. if you correctly predict the direction your opponent will tech after staff2 at the end of midscreen combos it's also often possible to go for an air throw, but once again this isn't likely to work on good players. EX: same as above, but with delay>8/9 air throw or IAD air throw(for forward/back techs, respectively) instead of dash>delay>2c[m]. 3. once again relying on bad teching, if you get an anti-air hit or an air-to-air hit and aren't able to go into a full combo off of it, if you jump cancel and then delay>j.c(the delay is to make it so your j.c comes out after they tech), if the opponent is not using barrier tech they are likely to get a random attack on tech, which will score you a counter hit with j.c[m] combo. won't work on neutral tech. the technique itself can be somewhat useful even against better players because even if the opponent blocks, you definitely have a pressure advantage, and litchi does not get much off of random air-to-air hits with staff(usually). EX: in training, set the dummy to jump and backward air tech. at the height of his jump, do 5a>jc>j.a>j.b[m]>jc>delay j.c. if you do it right the j.c should connect as they get out of the tech. while they can win you the entire game if successful, at most the above are easy ways to victory vs bad/mediocre players. it's definitely a good way to teach your community/friends the importance of learning to barrier tech, though. but once again, along the lines of what LK said, it's probably best to learn to work with your oki game, and tsubame is 11-12 meter+dmg in itself so it's not a bad ender.

i've read a few people asking where to get the 1.06 patch so i figured i would repost it since i went to a bit of trouble to get it myself. i don't think there are any problems with posting it here given that the patch itself is not paid content. http://www.mediafire.com/?hg5lee0mdg31tbe really looking forward to the second edition. i would think the current one wouldn't be particularly hard to adapt for netplay, but it seems like it'll have to wait for the second one. with any luck they won't end up abandoning the project, although at this rate it seems like it will still be a long time before it's released. also, as represented by BBBB(the only western forum i know for this game) it seems people think that rouga/kunagi/one other are top tier, but the japanese seem to unanimously agree that sanzou alone is S tier and kunagi is usually more like B(even though aoniku seems to win tournaments frequently) according to the BBB shitaraba board. was i just reading the wrong people's posts or is the west's opinion on top tier actually different from japan's by that much? not that it would be surprising since i don't think anybody has really taken this game all that far.

i'm glad to see you took the joke well. i'd say the psyduck was more about the severity of the change, as this "nerf" feels more like it would more or less completely remove both litchi's corner carrying and corner oki game(not that a nerf of some kind isn't warranted). i'm personally psyducking just trying to figure out how we could even get the 2d corner oki/traps we had in CT, unless the combo actually starts in the corner. not that litchi should require corner pressure, but it has been a large part of her game/playstyle since CT(someone correct me if i'm wrong). i suspect the reason most people are troubled is that it's not just combos and statistics like damage that are changing, but the general end result of the combos(for all we can tell) and thus her playstyle would change. not to take a pedantic tone, but many people play a character solely because they enjoy how the character plays/its general strategy, and thus this is a concern. all that being said, there's not much point in analyzing the changes too in depth until we can tell what they're thinking when we see the changes they make in the next loke test(s), but it's surprising they made some of these changes when it seems like there are many other options available which would still do the trick while not having as much impact on her combos and(seemingly) playstyle. even then, things are far from final so there's little point in raising a storm. i'm satisfied so long as the game is well balanced and litchi is entertaining.

i heard that if you use a low tier character, you can win without actually winning. sounds like a good deal! screw sportsmanship! "i lost because of my mistakes or a strength of my opponent that i failed to compensate for?" what kind of old fashioned garbage is that? you don't have to make mistakes to lose against a tier whore. they just whore you to death with their whore magic. in any case, has anyone in this thread said that litchi being nerfed is anything but a good thing? this is probably a hopeless request, but can we cut it out with the negativity and mentalities borne from unsportsmanlike philosophies, regardless of whether it's just trolling or not? it's making this thread unpleasant to look at(it is greatly against my better judgment even to make this post, but it's clear these exchanges aren't going to stop), as much as i would love to discuss litchi's actual changes. in the end i think we all want a balanced character, and agree that currently, litchi is not well balanced. ideally, this wouldn't mean completely relearning her before we've had much of a chance to use her, but change does typically mean at least some level of relearning.

deaththekid, if you're interested in playing BB i'd advise signing up on alaskagamers.com. you can PM me your details/contact info and we can discuss it from there if you want. the alaskan fighting game community has sessions that are(more or less) open to the public every saturday(in fact, this saturday we are having tournaments, i believe), so that might be a good gathering for you to attend first to meet people/get a feel for the community. can you drive? around where do you live? for courtesy's sake, i live on the dimond side of arctic. the sessions i mentioned above are held off of new seward highway near northern lights. iketatari, you've got my thanks if you get some people playing(and even if you don't if you try). as to BB vs melty blood against casuals, sounds like it would just be a matter of dropping combos to me. i would say your statement is true for some BB characters, but without going into detail, if you played litchi(do you?) you might think differently. however, i've never played melty blood at any length, so i'm not really qualified to make a judgment on your statement. i'll probably attend the next con to see what i can do personally, but getting people to stick around is always the hard part. it's definitely regrettable that we hadn't talked earlier. i've been playing BB since it came out; we had a small scene directly after CT's retail release, but it died after a short while. later, i got two or three people playing shortly before CS' arcade release and it's continued from there.

well, that's frustrating beyond words. there is a large scene for SSF4(we have a juri player who got 13th at evo, so they're not incompetent, either) and smaller scenes for BB, Tekken, Melee, and SSBB. i guess you weren't there when they were doing the SSF4 tournament at the con(assuming we're talking about the same one). it usually isn't that easy to develop a community, but there probably is more i could do(although i haven't had much success with fliers in the past). i hadn't been planning on going to cons in the future, but maybe i'll go to the next one to see if i can get a few people interested. i don't think i could count on any of our players to actively try to besides myself. one of the best of our players was at the con; too bad he didn't meet you. seems like most of the people who go to cons aren't usually into competitive gaming, though(or are against it). either way, virtually anyone is welcome, so if you have friends who are interested in the AK gaming scene(esp. fighting games), you should probably mention the ranbats on your facebook too(we do them for SSF4 and BB every other sunday(we had one today)), as well as alaskagamers.com, which is where pretty much everybody from the various communities goes). it'd be greatly appreciated. hope to play you sometime, though. maybe if you get some experience out there in AZ you can bring some of those skills up here sometime, haha.

figured i'd might as well post an update since i'm/we're not dead and i don't want this deleted. although lately things have been... discouraging in terms of playing people, if i could get even one new player lurking here that would be great. the community is a little bigger, but it is still small and it is very difficult to get people to play. if i could even get a few of the current people to play consistently, things would be looking up from where they are now. we are having ranbats now, however, so that has been a plus(although they are held alongside SSF4). we usually get somewhere between 10 and 15 people, and most people seem to enjoy themselves. i guess that's about it. if you're lurking and are interested in playing, please contact me/post.

it's just shit talk/trolling(if i understand it correctly) not unlike some of the posts in this thread. using equivalent internet slang, "litchi main tears are delicious" is not far from its meaning(although far from literal). i'd go further in depth but it would be a waste of space.

in this context, that would mean that j.c's hitbox is thinner below him. that wouldn't result in arakune's max damage being cut in half(although it might affect damage if it made j.c no longer usable mid-loop(then again, we'd probably still have the dive loop)), but it would most likely make j.c overheads more difficult depending on the severity.

thanks, that helps and i understand your logic/can picture it a bit better now. i'll try it out if i ever get the chance. it's not really possible to test this in training mode because you can't make the dummy do random delayed neutral techs, so i guess i'll just have to see if i can't give my competition a better understanding of how DSR works so that they'll do things that let me try this out. what i am thinking right now is that it sounds good if trying to react to a delayed neutral tech with 5a makes it so i don't have enough time to punish DSR hitting a roll with a proper combo.

thanks, i will look for them. i know the combos so the player dropping them isn't a concern for me, i just need to see/understand the setup. i think i am beginning to understand how it would work on a delayed neutral tech, but not quick rise. is the hatsu expected to actually hit in this setup? how? i thought it was assumed that they would be blocking the hatsu after an hj attempt with the purpose of forcing them back to the ground, which is why i thought 5a would be a superior option(assuming you can react). unless hatsu somehow hits them out of their opening jump frames after a neutral tech, i don't see why anyone would get hit by it(seems ridiculous not to block until you're safely away from daisharin).

LK, i'm aware of that and don't quite understand how that becomes a reason to use hatsu(OS or not), but i am having a very difficult time imagining exactly what this is supposed to look like. maybe it's best we move on from this subject, as discussing it doesn't seem to be getting it through to me. i'll just look out for it on videos or try it myself, although i don't think i have an opponent that i can use it on(see 3rd paragraph). do you use it in your match videos? kenny, sounds like you value it a lot. i'm suspecting that the reason i'm having difficulty understanding the value of this is because of my opponent's patterns(see below). anyways, thanks for trying to help me understand it. i'll keep an eye out in videos, and if i can, try it out in real matches, but i don't think i have any competition that attempts to get out of DSR in a manner that makes this usable(my competition either always neutral tech>blocks or they try to roll and get hit) so it might be difficult. and yeah, i really hope they don't change the proration on her combos but actually change the damage/meter gain, unless they can find some super solution that doesn't necessitate completely relearning the character. relearning the proper enders for every move again after only 6 months would be painful to say the least. on the other hand, having somewhat shorter combos is a little attractive... hmm.

the thing is that i am under the impression that daisharin normally beats no tech/roll naturally. a delayed tech can cause the second hit of DSR to whiff and allow a jumpout, but isn't a neutral tech reactable? meaning, you wait to see if they neutral tech or roll and then react appropriately, rather than doing an OS. either way i'd like to see this in a match video as i never remember seeing it. i'm guessing 5a would not cover the proper area to be anti-jump(even though it's significantly faster)? and just to be clear, the timing of the hatsu is simply immediately after daisharin(grounded) recovery?

i had a large post written out after going through testing, but it could basically be boiled down to this: severin, i'm assuming you're responding to ATG, as that does not address my concerns. not meaning to be rude there if you were addressing me. i'm pretty tired right now as i'm sick with a head cold/allergy, but i did a lot of testing and it seems to me that the only thing this hatsu idea counters is possibly a delayed neutral tech>jump. was it only being proposed as a cover for mistakes? i was thinking it was being proposed as a counter to quick rise>6hj(which would make more sense for a variety of reasons) for some reason, but after testing that doesn't seem to work at all. the idea of option selecting it seems odd since a neutral tech should be reactable, and i believe you can counter a delayed neutral tech>6hj retreat by simply jumping to block their escape(and if they don't jump you can go for a fuzzy guard mixup). the OS idea made sense back when i was thinking of it as a method of countering quick rise, but it seems too slow to do that. moreover, a delayed neutral tech should cause hatsu to whiff, which both causes you to waste time and opens you up to a reversal. finally, i have become curious as to whether forms of daisharin inputs that cause the staff to go above the opponent(ex. 19xxxx) are the only counter to quick rise>6hj that don't involve using 3 as the first input. also, LK, are you sure those forms of input aren't used to counter delayed neutral tech>jump and quick rise>6hj rather than simply for covering a mistake on DSR input or as character-specific counters(as i discussed earlier)? i don't have the energy to do any more testing, so a more in-depth analysis/specific explanation of why this would be used and timings would be appreciated, unless i've understood everything correctly.

i believe the main reason 6c>daisharin is used over 6d>daisharin is because the cancellability window's end on 6d coincides nearly with the time that you'd be able activate DSR to force an enemy to block hit 2 of DSR on neutral tech(if you're not delaying the DSR severely you aren't doing it right). in other words, you can delay the DSR more by using 6c because there's no point at which you can no longer cancel it, which affords more frame advantage(not to mention being easier and with no risk of losing the staff). a non-hit-confirmed hatsu after daisharin sounds very odd. seems like it would leave you open to reversal on neutral tech and that other options might serve the same purpose with lower risk(2a/2b+barrier option select or 5b?). regrettably, i don't actually have much experience with litchi due to a lack of opponents, but it does seem that a quick rise>high jump is a counter to a daisharin timed for a neutral tech assuming litchi does nothing. to add to the discussion of using daisharin inputs such as 19xxxx or 138xxx, i mostly observe litchi players doing this when they're up against characters like noel, jin, hakumen, or taokaka. using alternative DSR patterns forces the opponent to gamble if they want to use their usual escape routes(hakumen/jin parry, noel/tao CA); they don't know when you'll aim for the corner(or a location where they'll be vulnerable if they CA and you guessed right), so retaliatory poking/CA escapes/parries become more of a risk, discouraging their use and allowing you to mix them up. of course, this logic only applies to opponents who are aware of/heed the risk; an opponent who assumes you will never send DSR at them because you're scared of their usual options is likely to do whatever they feel like. someone correct me if i'm wrong on any of this. it's not knowledge i've gained from personal experience nor is it absolute like a combo. i still feel like i have a lot to learn about daisharin.

itsuuc does not combo off of 5c[m] at long ranges, but it will always link off of 3c[m], so yes frostediheavens, the only thing i think can be added to your post is that you can end that combo in daisharin as well(for slightly less damage/)

in response to 4d corner combos: the best combo ends in 4kote>dash>3c>2d>8hjc>j.c>j.c>6a[m]>tsubame>3c dash may not be necessary on some characters. for daisharin, (after itsuu)9>j.b>j.c>6kote>falling j.c>5c>2d>9>j.c>crouch barrier>6c both of these do over 3900 damage. haku hatsu definitely is the best option in corner, but keep in mind there's a good distance in which you'll be doing a corner combo, but won't be able to use haku>hatsu. in response to itsuuB combos off 2b: it's true that itsuuC is generally better to do if you can, but at far ranges it won't combo and you need to use itsuuB. the combo i use is: 2b>6b>dash>6c>6kote>delay until staff hits ground>hatsu>riichiA>ippatsuA... etc. usually ends in tsubame midscreen. it's fairly difficult to get down consistently, but the trick is to do both 6c and the 6kote as fast as possible, and to do the delay mentioned(because you can't do riichiA until the staff lands).

i suppose the easiest example of a situation in which 6b won't work and 2c[m] will would just be 5a>5b>itsuu loop. grats if i'm interpreting you correctly. and, you mean itsuu loops until patch.

i'm assuming you mean "if i want to avoid the reset/oki situation". there are many of them. 339999>jump>hatsu 339399>jump>haku>chun>hatsu>delay hatsu 333333>chun>chun>delay>hatsu the top one will always be able to get a full daisharin off and is by far the easiest in terms of getting the guaranteed damage. the middle one does the most raw damage. the final one is between the other two in damage and the daisharin input is easier than the middle one. you can use 6c after all of them if you time it right, or kokushi for more damage.

i'd intended to answer earlier, but it slipped my mind... technically, if you can use it, yes 6b is better. they prorate equally and 6b does more damage. as to whether or not there are times when you can use 2c[m] but not 6b, yes as well. it's exactly 40 damage more, but the link is far tougher and you've got to know whether it will work for the starter you're using(whereas dash barrier 2c[m] is universal, given spacing). i would advise using it off of a few select starters, but not much more than that since the damage difference is so small. some people may find use in it in starting itsuu loops off some starters since the execution is simpler than 2c[m](if tighter), but i believe there are a good number of starters in which it won't work, so be careful. the best use for it i can find is off of the last daisharin hit. since the last hit of daisharin places the staff in the 2d trajectory, after DSR final>haku>riichiA>ippatsuA>... i don't think you have time for 2c[m] because the staff's second hit occurs sooner than it does in the usual 5d position, and using 6c disables/weakens some combo routes, so 6b is particularly good here since it allows you to avoid using 6c. note that this also applies to virtually any kind of random staffless attack into ippatsu in the corner when the staff is set into 2d position. ex: 5b>2c>haku>hatsu>riichiA>ippatsuA>7>j.d>j.c>6b>itsuuA... but this doesn't happen very often(although you can still usually use 6b for these types of staffless combos even if it's set into 5d position). just be careful of combos starting with jabs and hit confirm early.