Siefer

GGs Toan, it was nice to finally play you. I have to get ready for work though. I told you I was bad.

vs: This Jin player is super reckless and doesn't control space as well as he could in this match. He also needs to learn better block strings. Well, at least he knows to abuse 2D at mid-range against Relius, or maybe this is just what he always does. Aside from dropping a lot of combos, I thought you were approaching in a little recklessly sometimes either without Ignis at all (crazy from full screen unless the opponent is doing nothing or recovering off of some long ass move) or just off of 214A by itself. I think you should have respected Jin on wakeup a little more because he was DPing like crazy. That being said, I can't really say much more from the first match because of how reckless Jin was playing. Personally, I would have played a little more passively against such a player and punish his whiffs or create openings with Ignis, 5Bs, 2Bs, 2Cs, and 2As. The way you played the 2nd match is much, much better against this kind of player, and unsurprisingly (to me), you got better results. I'm not sure if you're aware of it, but you have to be careful of comboing into astral off of a 3C, because if you're too close, it'll whiff. I think it would have been safer just to throw him into astral (more time to input too). In the 3rd match in round 1, I thought that was a bad burst. Unless you were 100% confident you could have completely turned down the round around (or forced him to use his own burst at least), it didn't do anything for you in the end except waste a burst. I'm assuming this was a rage burst. In round 2, you could have finished the round by comboing into super, but you won in the end, so it's ok. In round 3, you could have actually killed him if you did a more advanced corner only gold burst combo into super (if not kill, you would have put him in a bad spot plus oki). I stopped watching after the 3rd match, practice those combos.

2/4/12 Game Chariot Shadow vs: (KLY) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2RJ7fu9FS4#t=7m28s A lot of what is going on in this match is what I talk about in the match-up thread. Shadow is trying his best to avoid 2D at mid-range neutral (very few haphazard summons) and is avoiding aerial confrontations with Jin whenever possible. The one time he was up close he smacked Jin up with his 2A, which Jin can't beat without a DP or a 6B, and that's only if you mash the 2A. vs: (Gomikuzu) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2RJ7fu9FS4#t=12m57s Shadow doesn't engage Ragna in a head-on footsie battle, and prefers to chill out and wait for him to make a move to punish accordingly. The entire match Shadow respects Ragna's DP and keeps his pressure and oki options simple. I personally think the Ragna player should have been more aggressive, but whatever. He does things pretty much text book, which is why he's my favorite Relius player. vs: (Tomo Gatsu) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFaZ2Ojuk2A I guess Shadow got bored after that last match and went balls out rush down in round 1. Tomo Gatsu does what I think Gomikuzu should have done and plays more aggressively against Relius, moving into his comfort zones a lot more frequently, and putting Shadow on defense a lot more often. Shadow eventually decides to go back to approaching the match-up text book style in round 3, and shuts down Ragna pretty convincingly. vs: (Yumura) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-yNjvY1YrE & http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEQumRDwQPo There isn't much to say here. He plays a lot more aggressively than you can in these matches. The most notable thing here is his "instant" j.C overhead option he has on Tager because of his large hitbox, which he terrorizes poor Tager with the entire time (lots of 2D high/low pressure). Oh, he also baits out the burst hard at around 7:28 (1st video) and celebrates with a Led Ley, lol. He continues to troll Yumura by doing Led Ley over and over again around the 8:50ish (1st video) and 1:50ish (2nd video) mark too (btw, this is what I do too). I also thought it was cute how he tried to kill Yumura with a 236D at the end of the 2nd video.

@Jourdal: Narrative integrity aside, I don't really understand why people like his character so much, because ironically enough, he has no personality and doesn't leave an impact outside of his visual design. Atlus rectified this when they created Yu and later, female protagonist in Persona 3 Portable by giving them more of a personality and distinct emphasis on their roles within the party. In fact, aside from the plot devices he satisfies through his existence, the "real" protagonist of Persona 3 actually ends up being Aegis. @SoWL: We don't even fully understand the rules behind the tv world in Persona 4, so going into how Persona 3 characters and their personas interact with that is beyond our understanding. @Osuna: He is literally dead in a physical sense. They clear this up beyond a shadow of a doubt in FES (since people couldn't understand the obvious symbolism marking his death). Death and Thanatos are one in the same. Shadows are also very similar to personas, and they even take it a step further in P4 by directly stating that shadows and personas are one in the same. The protagonist from Persona 3 can invoke Thanatos even after the separation. Outside of the strange Izanagi anomaly (which is odd in itself), in the P3/P4 world, we have never seen 2 characters possess the same Personas at the same time, with the only exceptions being "inheritance" (this also applies to Persona 2 as well if you only look at the base personas).

Err, I'm not sure what you're implying there, but Thanatos itself is the personification of death. If you're implying that just because Elizabeth is using Thanatos means that the protagonist isn't dead (which he is, his body is dead), I also find that hard to believe as that was one of his primary personas, and especially after actually experiencing death, would be a persona that would still be with him. The fact that Elizabeth has Thanatos is a symbolic implication that she has inherited it from him, just as Aegis inherited Orpheus from him in FES. From a narrative perspective, I don't think Junpei has enough of a reason to fight anymore, unless the world was in danger again (and he was aware of that). From a gameplay perspective, I feel that Junpei would be too similar to Yu, and there isn't enough to differentiate them, unless he takes on a Ragna-esqe design and wields a broadsword haphazardly and aggressively.

I think the fact that Elizabeth is using Thanatos as her persona is sufficient enough to conclude that she was not able to bring back the protagonist. Although this is off-topic, personally, I don't see why so many people want to see P3's protagonist return. If he returns, it will completely eliminate any emotional impact his sacrifice had in P3, and completely go against the obvious theme of P3 (death). I thought Elizabeth's actions were more symbolic on how she can grow attached enough to a human outside of the velvet room, and develop as a person to the point where she would give up everything she has ever known to bring him back, rather than the actual act of bringing him back. If there's any P3 character that could return in this game from a narrative point of view, I'd feel it would actually be Yukari, especially after what happened in FES and her new acceptance and closeness with Aegis. From a gameplay POV though, Yukari would just be a mix of Naoto, Mitsuru, and Yukiko, so I don't see this happening unless they decide to throw in some new twist for her. I think the most likely character we'll see is Margaret honestly.

Courage is obviously more important than defense. My priorities have been wrong this entire time, the Japanese have enlightened me towards the proper path. I will just have to 2C every overhead attempt to showcase my courage skills.

I agree with what St1ckbug is saying through my experiences. Another way to look at it is that it doesn't matter how "amazing" his oki is, if you're not making good decisions in neutral and you're being put on the defensive all the time, it's all for naught. A lot of Relius' success (or sometimes, the sources of his problems) is what he decides to do and is capable of doing at neutral in match-ups, especially in the more difficult match-ups (like Valk). If you watch the more consistent Japanese Relius players, they all make playing Relius look a lot easier than it actually is, and it's mostly due to their ability to control space and create opportunities to go in and start pressure. This is especially prevalent when they have to play against the better players. EDIT: I also find that Relius' most difficult match-ups are often the result of the lack of effective options he has available to him at neutral in his most comfortable ranges.

So, according to http://shindanmaker.com/204292, I am... Neutral: D+ Yomi: S Combos: S Courage: B+ lol, my neutral gets even worse if I use my real name.

I will definitely be watching this.

@St1ckbug: What you showed me at RIL's does work on Hakumen too. I'm pretty sure it won't work on anyone else, but I'll try the rest of the cast out just to make sure.

Corner Gold Burst Combo: Gold Burst-5B-2C-6C-(slight delay) 236C-214A-66-5B-5C-sj.B-j.C-j.214A-(falling) j.B-5C-4D-3C Does 3381 dmg. EDIT: If you're having trouble landing this, try to let them close to the ground before doing the 5B. You also don't have a lot of room for error on the 3C, but it's a legit combo.

Game Chariot Shadow vs: (Miya) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlR78HTKqKk vs: (Yutta) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7o3BSxRnPo vs: (Kaqn) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6b7KJ8NE8Y vs: (Kaqn) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixeNhqNSe5c 3/16 Tachikawa Mori vs: (Hane) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gzgSUFDOgE#t=8m51s TORI vs: (R-1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-crd8Nmc9X0#t=8m9s vs: (Anzu) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sB7Zwio80tE vs: (Hane) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sB7Zwio80tE#t=7m41s *Note: TORI makes it all the way to finals! 3/10 Big One Mori vs: (Konan) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0YlDcQ0xgI#t=3m3s 3/10 Gulliver 3on3? vs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhb1OuAX-Gs#t=10m52s vs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhb1OuAX-Gs#t=14m32s vs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPY-dxgl4Y4#t=6m49s vs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPY-dxgl4Y4#t=9m58s 3/15 a-cho vs: (Nezu?) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8Z8GRxDqkk&feature=g-all-u&context=G28c7eddFAAAAAAAABAA#t=16m14s vs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8Z8GRxDqkk&feature=g-all-u&context=G28c7eddFAAAAAAAABAA#t=26m39s 3/4 a-cho TORI vs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMd7HN4Gklo#t=13m7s vs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMd7HN4Gklo#t=16m13s Combo Movie Koshikawa http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk70p56tptE I haven't watched all of these matches yet, but there's matches against well-known players here, so that's a good thing. There's also a gold burst combo in the corner in one of these vids that nets 3k+ and 3C knockdown if I remember correctly. I'll transcribe it in the general thread once I see it again.

GGs RIL, I liked the way you played tonight. I am awful though, lol.

Thanks for hosting Ril, and I had fun meeting new people and seeing old faces. GGs to all I played, I will get better...maybe, I guess.

3/13/12 Mizunokuchi 2on2: vs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymE8NZ2yQb8#t=5m37s vs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1Qm-RMUAeI#t=7m32s Some new matches.

RIL said any time after 4.

3/3/12 Nakamurabashi Fun Factory Random 2v2: vs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dntidlAfhLE&list=PL03D59DE3A50E7277&index=1&feature=plpp_video#t=11m25s vs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uae-L6Knpw&feature=BFa&list=PL03D59DE3A50E7277&lf=plpp_video vs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByHYjdC281M&feature=BFa&list=PL03D59DE3A50E7277&lf=plpp_video#t=5m1s vs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KLIqjVhDCQ&feature=BFa&list=PL03D59DE3A50E7277&lf=plpp_video#t=4m17s vs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fo6kf2hurw&feature=BFa&list=PL03D59DE3A50E7277&lf=plpp_video vs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lAKh6DrJDU&feature=bf_next&list=PL03D59DE3A50E7277&lf=plpp_video#t=4m8s He trolls a lot in this match... vs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lAKh6DrJDU&feature=bf_next&list=PL03D59DE3A50E7277&lf=plpp_video#t=6m17s vs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_De9JdZFRA&feature=BFa&list=PL03D59DE3A50E7277&lf=plpp_video vs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_De9JdZFRA&feature=BFa&list=PL03D59DE3A50E7277&lf=plpp_video#t=2m28s This guy doesn't start off too strong, but ends up going into beast mode later on, trolling 2 players in the process. The most interesting thing about these vids was using 2C to beat overheads, and 2C to deal with certain chain approaches by Hazama (both in the same match), at least to me.

Hey now, I take CentrumSilver multi-vitamins...

Hm, I'd like some advice on how to approach this match-up. At mid-range neutral, 2D shuts down any summon attempt on your part, and on block, it brings you in closer which isn't necessarily a good thing. On the plus side, on whiff it leaves Jin recovering forever, and you can smack him with a nice 6C fatal. If you duck, you make your profile smaller and 2D's effective range less (this only applies if you're closer rather than farther from Jin). Likewise, Jin's 5C outranges Relius' 5B, but, 5B will beat out 5C if you're close enough (it's faster). To compound this problem, Jin pretty much dominates Relius in all aerial exchanges. j.C and even j.B will out range your j.B, and closer up, Jin can use j.A. Unless you're on the offensive or you read a laggy ground move, you really shouldn't be in the air fighting Jin. Relius wants to be on offense pretty much all the time in this match, but his usual ranges (mid-rangeish) isn't as effective against Jin at neutral to get in. Between navigating through 5C and 2D, as well as Jin's superior aerial game, you should definitely be cautious. On the plus side, Relius will beat out anything Jin does up close (with the exception of DP) because your 2A is faster than his (Note: your 2A can whiff against his 6B or he can CH hit you, you want to 2A him out of the apex of his jump but before he throws out the kick), and if you space it right, 2B goes under Jin's 2A! (Note: If you're late though, Jin can punish your recovery with 2A). 5B seems to be more effective once your inside 5C's range, although he can 2A you out of it similar to Noel. Of course, Jin has 2 DP options available to him, so usual pressure/oki options are restricted. Again though, if baited, you can punish with a nice 6C fatal into 4k plus mid-screen, and up to 6k+ by the corner (yea he's gonna burst that). On defense, you should be familiar with Jin's frame data and gatling options. That's all I can really say, otherwise, do whatever you can to reset to neutral or go directly into offense. Is there anything I've missed? Any other advice on how to approach this match-up?

I can't be the only one who thinks it's funny that Lord Knight hasn't posted since his initial post right? You guys are getting carried away on tangents, let the man answer the questions that were directed at him.

@Dusk: EDIT: Ok, I figured out what you meant. It still doesn't combo. You can do it off of 2C though.

Sounds interesting, I'd definitely stop by. @Stentatsu: It doesn't.

@St1ckbug: Thanks for the response. I dunno, if I can make them use a burst off an opportunity created by a 2A...I think I'd be pretty happy with that. In the worst case, things get reset back to neutral, but yea, reversals can make this less applicable. I agree that the meter cost is a bit high though.

I'm playing Relius. It would be great if you could come sometime, I'd love to play your Ragna. Ril, if I'm able to come, I won't be getting there until 5:45-6:30ish. Just letting you know, I'll give you a text to keep you updated.