Coopa

Might have been an auto-correct mistake or something. No. Barrier guard them so their mixup options become smaller. For example, say Platinum is running up to you and mashes 5a 5a 5a, if you were barrier guarding, she should be out of her 2a range after the second 5a, so now she can't do a fast low on you anymore (but 3c still exists). Smart use of barrier guarding will frustrate an opponent AND give you more time to visually confirm overheads because they aren't point blank. Eventually, after they are at a certain distance, you can try to IB your attempts and 360 them. For example, say Ragna did 2a 2a 2a and you barrier guarded him. He's now at 5b range. Say you instant blocked his 5b, and he tries to run in to do a different blockstring, if you threw in between his dash and next move, you might punish him for being too reckless.

I think for CS2, it's really important to learn a sub for zoning characters. It's just too hard sometimes to beat those bad matchups, man. Against Ragna though, I'm thinking it's horrible for Ragna now and Jourdal agrees with me on this, at least, based on the videos he's seen. I think as a Tager player, you can beat pretty much every bad matchup UP to a 6-4 in your opponent's favor. Past that, it gets really tough. Like, I'm sitting here seriously wondering what I should do as Tager against Hazama most of the time, man.

I was testing some things against my friend yesterday. All I can say is... what happened to Ragna's mixup options? They took some strong gattlings from the guy. And Hazama makes me want to cry, but I learned a few more things in that matchup, too. Cs2 changed a lot of things. I'm still trying to keep it all sorted out.

Since I play against Ragnas quite often, I think I might be able to give some advice. Ragnas who burst early in this matchup give you the win. Feel assured that when you see a green burst, you've essentially gained the advantage because now you only have to go through 2 primers till he dies. Countering Ragna's pokes: Ragna's 5b loses to your 5b if you react to his DASH. Meaning, you have to have your foot out by the time he throws out 5b to counterhit him. Buffer 5b into a sledge or spark bolt if you have it. If you want to be dirty, 5b counterhit, wait, 360 or 720 him. Ragna's 5c does not lose to your 5b. The reason why Ragnas don't 5c more is because it does give them much on block (and I think even on clean hit). But if a Ragna is using 5c against you, try to barrier guard him out of his ideal range. If the Ragna is fishing for counterhits using a blockstring like 5b, 5c, 2c, you do this: 5b (barrier guard), 5c (barrier guard + IB), 2c (5c punish because his 2c will whiff). Once they are out of their ideal range, you can try to 5c early in anticipation of them being in range. This is hopefully when you've conditioned them to stop 5bing. In general: Learn to block his basic mixup. 5a/2a/2b/2c -> 6b. Meaning his jabs, and his low moves (that aren't sweeps) transition to his overhead. 5a/5b/5c/2c -> 6a. Meaning, all his standing normals (non-command normals) lead into his 6a. You can memorize those transitions and do well. I believe... they nerfed his transitions from 6a -> X Meaning, I'm not sure if he can throw out a normal after 6a anymore I'm referring to the bottom of this btw: http://dustloop.com/guides/bbcs2/frameData/ragna.html Edited: Just tested. Correct. 6a no longer has any NORMAL transitions. Meaning, after you see the uppercut, expect a JUMP or a SPECIAL. That is it. If he just stands there and you threw out a 360, he gets punished. He needs to do something. So, this means after 6a, you are looking for special cancels, like gauntlet hades, or a jump cancel. You want to IB 6a and atomic collider if you think he's going to jump, block or back dash if you think he will special cancel. What I like to do is IB 6a and jump throw, since that really messes with people's heads, but whatever. That's just me. Back in CS1, when ever Ragna would 2b, and you ib'd it, you could punish it with 360b CLEAN, unless he transitions 2b into inferno divider. I think you can IB 2b now and 720 it clean, but I need to test this myself. Edited: Tested. Correct. Once you ib his 2b, you can 720 and he's screwed unless he cancels into inferno divider. 2b to anything else, even just block or holding up will get him killed (because 2b cannot be jump canceled). When Ragna has 50 meter, you can now choose to challenge post knock down him instead of letting him get away with SRK -> Air dash. Time a 6a so it's meaty. Hold 6a and charge, and wait for the srk. If you flash RED let go, because charged 6a puts the opponent into 15 frames of hitstop. If you release the button, your swing comes out at 12 frames after you release the button, so you have a 3 frame window to punish whatever the hell he does--wake up normal, wakeup srk, etc. Tips and tricks: When reacting to gauntlet hades, use a sound cue. When he says gauntlet, you should instinctively hold back to block the overhead. This is why when I play against Ragnas, I like to turn the sound up because this sound cue makes it a dead give away, although if they do it mad point blank, I'm not too sure about this. This unfortunately won't help you online. Okay, so I got homework to do. Have fun.

Okay, so this whole match is just one big test of yomi and one character has more tools and safe blockstrings that lead to bigger damage than the other. Ib nerf really made Jin auto-pilot, but at least it isn't as bad as Cs1 Bang. Thanks for the information, Axis. I'll try to react more to his approaches now.

A lot of tager players seem to be having trouble in this matchup. I'm not 100% sure why, but I can see it being fairly odd compared to the rest of the cast. Is there a Mu that lives in California, preferably Northern California, that would like to practice with me on Xboxlive? If so, could you please add me? Xbox live: IPWCoopa

I know this isn't much, but when I've noticed a Hakumen has enough meter for his TK overhead (I think it's 3 orbs?) and I see a dash, it feels more reliable for me to hold back versus holding down back. I can't count on reactions for everything because this match gets me stressed out. So, what I'm saying is, it's better to take the throw or 3c than the overhead, but feel free to correct me. This of course changes based on your position on the screen. Also, bursts, in this matchup ,seem to be highly dependent on position. A lot of hakumens I've played will burst out of the corner, burst to prevent them from being in the corner, or burst from being killed (duh). For me, I'm looking for a green burst that will put them into the corner, or a gold burst to push them into the corner, but that's just me. Also, I think transitions from 5c to 5d are okay, but transitions from 5d to whatever are not. Too many hakumens are just looking for a counter. 5c 2d doesn't seem to exist in this matchup as well. Walking 720 when hakumen is in the corner seems to be a godsend. When I knock him down in the corner, I try not to take 1 guess mixups because by then, I expect them to have meter to get out. For example, you 2d them into the corner, I do not 360, 720, or atomic collider afterwards, I just wait. It's better to safely pressure them until they crack, in my opinion. Then, you wait for a reactable opening. Jump = atomic collider or 5c for more safety, then standing there = poke. Ticks are fine, but after conditioning them, etc, etc. 720 as a form of getting back your damage seems to be so important, but I use it to threaten my opponent into getting antsy--sorta like spark bolt. That's my advice for now, I guess. Also, it seems Hakumens I play have this weird thing about jump D. I think its because the whiff recovery is pretty small, so if they whiff something, they sometimes go jump D to counter whatever thing you might try to use as a punish or pressure tool. My advice is to just expect it sometimes and 360b to condition them into stopping that. Also, another note. Visually confirm Hakumen landing on the ground. I don't think his low pokes are fast enough to where you need to move from back to downback so quickly. The reason I say this is to avoid double overheads. Do your best to minimize damage as you push Hakumen into the corner. I pretty much feel this matchup is similar to Dhalsim versus Gief (normal-wise), and if he gets out of the corner, you might have to do the walk of shame and just go die. So, at best, I think you get at max 3 tries during a match to push hakumen into a corner. At least, if you took a lot of damage pushing him into the corner, you get 1 good shot at it, so it's all about being patient and then learning how to explode when the time is right.

I'm just going to ask this question here instead of the Jin matchup thread, since I don't want to clutter that post thread up until more solid information is released, but can someone tell me about Tager vs Jin? I do well in it because I normally don't press buttons, but his pressure is safe beyond belief. Can someone tell me punishes for this guy if he gets too jittery? The way I play it now, is I try to see a pattern, specifically jump cancel patterns. I'm thinking if they 5b jump cancel air dash back, I can just spark bolt them or something, but I'd like some more information for anyone who feels especially knowledgeable about this matchup. Also, on a random note, what's the most reliable way to get out of a hakumen fully charged unblockable super setup. Say, he does a combo that sets me in the corner and he then super cancels to his sword. Should I just super jump or something? I actually just gold burst whiff 720, but I'd like something a little less, uh, committed.

Swinging momentum in your favor though can be hard. You will probably need some advanced grappler techniques and that does take some time to learn. Patience can also take awhile, since certain matches demand this. I think icing has been reduced in terms of importance, butnit helps to turn the momentum like you said. Edit.. I am at an apple store. Posting on an iPad that isn't mine lol

Oh, Flying Ve. I answered your questions in the previous post I made. Had to edit it. Also, you're Japanese? Edit: AXIS, do you have MSN or AIM? I'd like to talk to you, since you're pretty knowledgeable about how to punish or respond to an opponent's attack. I just block.

Oh, Xdest. I remember playing him online with my Platinum. We had like a 1 bar connection, so I'm not too sure what to say about him, but I play against Mystic D from Norcal often, and back when TaoFTW used to play, I played with him. I'm still pretty confused about the transition from CS1 to CS2. Maybe watching some Japanese videos will help solidify the matchup understanding. Well, whenever I get hit, I try to be at an odd angle, so my opponent doesn't get much off of it. Against mixup characters that I jump in against, I do a lot of jumping barrier guarding to get them used to a certain anti-air timing for them, then when I get meter from IBing their stuff, I delay my fall with jump 2c, rapid, so even if it's blocked, it's safe, and I get mixup, so that's the very first thing that I do that most tagers I see don't do. Against Mu, I don't know how to explain it too well, but her steins CAN BE a double-edged sword. It can set her offense up, get her out of the corner, and even be used for defense, but there are awkward times when if you hit with Mu and trade, the steins will knock you out of extended hitstun (from Mu's stronger normals), and instead, you just get pecked by a stein, tech, and apply pressure again, so that's a small bit of what I've noticed. Also, I find Mu's mixup really weak. When I played Pulsr, I remember him telling me that he respected my defense, so he had to do some funky things to get at me. A lot of empty jump low, or which way shenanigans. I think the reason why I feel this way is I'm almost always approaching Mu, but I'm not using sledge. What ends up happening is I'm trying to get past the tip of her 5c range, so she needs to spam the normal to keep me out. If she's spamming normals to keep me out, I'm getting meter from IBing and she's not getting time to stein. If I jump in like an idiot and barrier guard all day, she needs to AA, else I just got in for free. If I get Mu in the corner, I do walking 720 setups, and if she 5c's to try to get out, she eats the 720, so I think this is the one thing I neglected to mention about my 5c pressure in the corner. Unfortunately, I'm not too sure what else to say. I'm known for my defense as a Tager, but I don't think that accounts for why I feel x, y, and z matchup aren't as bad. I'm willing to review my information though because I'm not a knowledgeable player on frame data (which determines a lot of matchups, in my opinion). I just use it to supplement a decision.

If a CS2 list can be made, I will be forever thankful, but I get the feeling the list is going to be a lot smaller (but that much more important!!!)

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Hmm. Well, that's odd. Maybe it was Mu's 2b transition to something that was IB punishable. I know for sure I was eating Mu players up for that. I think I will test out the Taokaka matchup a bit more. If you guys are seriously saying it's that bad, then maybe the Taokaka players don't lame it up against me enough... or something. Hmm. In retrospect, I guess Mu 5c versus Tager 5c is something really odd to talk about. I find myself using it a lot when I push Mu into the corner. I'm not sure why I'm being so effective with it because Mu is still in her ideal range, it's just her backs to the corner. I'll need to review a bit of what I'm doing to see why, but maybe I'm transitioning to 5c from a block string, and then post 5c, I do something that let's me 5c again.

Hmm, well, okay. I'm going to keep testing things out as time avails. If I come up with anything, I'll tell you guys.

I really don't see Taokaka being that bad in CS2. You'll have to enlighten me or vice versa. I'd question the Valk matchup as well, since Valk did get nerfed from CS1 to CS2, and the matchup was horrible in CS1. What makes you say it's still bad for Tager? Everything else can be understandable, since we're lacking information.

This post is finished for now. Posts afterwards will be in response Well, if we are on the topic of good matchups for Tager, I will need to talk about why Tager is bad. I think Tager is low tier for different reasons now. Previously, it was because characters who were good (Bang and Litchi) out prioritized him and kept him under constant pressure and did more damage. Tager in CS1 had to resort to amazing reads to get rewarded whereas other characters could stick to a concrete game plan and wait for their opponents to mess up. Now, in CS2, Tager doesn't have to go out of his way to make a read. If you expect your opponent to jump, you don't have to yomi collider them to bring them down. You can resort to a safer option of 5c. Even if they barrier guarded your 5c you can continue further into more pressure. Arcsys also tried to lower Tager's high guessing game by giving him charged 6a, but at the moment, the biggest issue with charged 6a is its startup time. You can get hit out of the super armor BEFORE it activates, which doesn't help Tager players at all. They get mashed out all the time. Overall, Arcsys made Tager a safer character, but he still has problems with his oki and against pressure. ***Tager players who understand risk reward will go farther than Tager players who play a very gungho style because of the new mechanics in CS2 (nerfed magnetism properties, lowered IB, etc.) So, if Tager is overall a safer character to play, why isn't he higher on the tier list? Well... The IB nerf. For a lot of the cast, this won't be a problem because their fastest normal (5a) come out in 6 frames. For tager, your fastest whatever is a 720 and your fastest normal is 8 frames (5a). Finding a blockstring with an 8 frame gap is going to be incredibly rare in CS2. Frankly, don't bother. You need to now barrier guard to push your opponent out, find some space, and then poke them out of their ideal range. When they are out of their ideal range, THEN you can retaliate, but Tager in CS2 needs breathing room, whereas in CS1, he could force his way out with an IB atomic collider, or IB 720. However, what can Tager do if there isn't a gap in the block string large enough for him to breathe? Nothing. Yay! This is why certain matchups are as bad as they are: Arakune (maybe 7-3 to 8-2 bad), Carl (same as Arakune), Hazama (same as Arakune, but bad for different reasons). ------------------------------------------------- Matchups: Taokaka: I think the Taokaka versus Tager matchup has changed drastically. Not so much because of Tager, but mostly because of Taokaka. At worse, this matchup is .5 in Taokaka's favor and that's it. It pretty much comes down to you defending well and predicting the followup they are going to try on you, so to do well in this matchup, you need to know her drive and jump cancels. From there, you can yomi collider, jump throw, 2c, 2a, backdash + 360, etc. Mu: Yeah, sure, this matchup got worse from CS1. In CS1, I thought it was fairly even. The Tager player just needed to be patient, IB certain unsafe normals and slowly push Mu into the corner. Same concept in BBCS2, except unsafe normals became safe even in IB. Her 2b used to be IB punished with 360B. Now, I think you can punish with 720, but don't quote me on that. Her 5c has good zoning range, so when you're in her 5c, range, don't press buttons unless you're at frame advantage. You don't use spark bolt in this matchup as much as you THREATEN to use spark bolt. Pushing Mu into the corner severely limits her options. If she tries to dash in and hit you, 5c stops her. If she tries to SRK you, she might whiff because she needs to dash in to be in range. If she blocks your 5c, it means you're in your ideal range, and you can cancel into 5d (but don't press anything afterwards). If she tries to dash out, you can on reaction, atomic collider and bring her back in. This matchup isn't really that bad though. It's at worse 6-4 in her favor, or 5.5 in her favor. The biggest problem for Mu is the moment you touch spark bolt, she needs to respect you a lot. If the Mu player doesn't respect your spark bolt, they don't know the matchup, so punish them for it. Rachel: I thought Rachel was pretty annoying in CS1. She had tools to run away for a fairly long amount of time, and it seemed the only way to punish her was to predict her projectile blockstring. I don't know them from memory, but whenever I saw a Rachel transition from a ground normal (usually an umbrella normal) to a projectile, I'd IB the normal and sledge the projectile. That was my usual gameplan when they tried to pressure me. In cs2, that gap doesn't exist anymore, and instead, you have to do other things to play on an even ground. First, barrier guard her out of her range. If you do this, you limit her instant jab overhead. It doesn't lead to astounding damage, but it's nice to know she can't do that. Get some space, and when you expect her to do an air normal at you, 6a and hold (if they are magnetized). On reaction, look for Tager to glow red, then let go. Don't release prior to it, unless you think they will get cheeky and try to throw you or they won't do anything period. If you ever have meter, and a Rachel is trying to zone you out, go ahead and stay a little bit out of B sledge distance (because then they will think it's safe to throw something), then predict the projectile. If she throws it out at you, B sledge: If you did it as a projectile comes out, sledge follow up. If she didn't do it, block. If she is near the end of her projectile, you can sledge follow up and rapid cancel for more pressure. In my opinion, this matchup is similar to Mu, except with a projectile mind game. You don't mess with Mu's projectiles, but you can sometimes mess with Rachel's. To do well in this matchup, you need to push Rachel out of her scissor range (5b????) and into your 5c range. From here, you can push her into the corner. The range in between 5b and 5c is what I call the reactable MAGNETIZED range. If Rachel is magnetized, then you look at what she does and react to it. If she dashes in, 6a hold. If she does nothing 5c, 5d. If she jumps, atomic collider. If she projectiles, sledge (although this is hard in my opinion) if she back dashes, spark bolt (if you have it). Sometimes you get nothing off her backdash, but that's okay. She just put herself closer to the corner. Overall, I guess this matchup is like 5.5 or 6-4 her favor? Okay, so, uh, I've only listed bad matchups so far. What gives, right? Here are some of Tager's good matchups (in my opinion): Ragna: 6-4 Tsubaki: 6-4 Noel (yes, you read that right): 6-4 Makoto (maaaaaaaybe. I really need to figure this one out a bit more, but I will try to explain later) Platinum (probably even or in Tager's favor. Watch Akira versus Hakuma Doushi SP?) You can call me out on any of these, since I'm still learning CS2, but that's totally fine. We can share information and get a better grasp on things.

Is Victa in this thread yet, so I can body his free Ragna?

So, uh, how are my buds up in Canada doing?

I came here just to look up combos out of boredom, but upon reviewing the first post, I already feel trolled. FUCKING GINSENG.

Why are the carl forums so... dead?

By OS 3c xx 22c, you mean: inputting 22c regardless of 3c hits, so if it does hit, 22c, comes out, correct? Or are you saying there is an option-select that exists that allows 3c to come out if something else whiffs? If it is the latter, then I am really interested to know what it is for pressure purposes. Also, I'm having some trouble linking 6c -> 22c (the aerial version) in combos. For example, 5c 236b (corner), 5c, 2c, bubble, backup (how much?) 6c, 22c (I whiff 22c here). Um, what do I do?

I thought maybe putting in some Tager input might help some folks here. It took me some time to get used to Tager's changes--actually, it took me time just to figure out the IB nerfs. That's what really affected me. Pretty much, I rarely IB into 720 anymore, unless the opponent is pushing their luck waaaaaay too much, but I've found that even Tager needs to barrier guard out of pressure now. People just don't respect his IB 720 anymore (maybe because it simply can't come out). I still don't really know Tager's BBCS2 specific combos, but for the most part, everything old seems to be fine to use. I just end on 2d a lot, since Tager corner pressure is more or less ideal. 5d/2d/j.d have balls magnetism pull now. I just throw 5d out in an attempt to catch people at bad footsie ranges now. J.d, I rarely use unless I've jumped in barrier guarded x amount of times, and it's about time they've respected an air attack. 2d isn't so good even when the opponent is magnetized, unless you're sure it's going to hit them. Post 2d, I just rapid 6a, but all I really get from the distance I'm doing it in is 6a->3c. Post - Gadget Finger: I still don't like gadget finger oki. It gives the opponent too much time to think, so unless I have meter, or unless I have a read, I don't like to put them near my face where they can mash, counterhit me, deal more damage, and put me in the corner. If I ever gadget finger though, and I'm without a clue, I like to default back to jump barrier guard or holding 6a. I don't really know the mechanics of 6a charge too well though, but certain small characters (like Plat) jump right over me and then I'm punished. 720 as a tick throw seems to be more important now than 720 as an IB reversal. I've counted how many times I've landed a 720, and rarely are they off of ib's now. I usually use it as a footsie sort of tool, whiff cr. a walk 720. The pull seems a lot stronger this game, so maybe that's why I'm landing it so often. That, or people just don't respect the range or something. Tager seems to be an overall better footsie character, and due to the decrease in overall damage from the cast, I think he can do well in most matchups, but... There are those matchups that you really don't want to play. I seriously say Tager players need to learn a sub cause Hazama, Arakune, and Carl are going to give you nightmares.

I'd like to go as well, as long as a hotel room has a spot for me. Edit: Revelations, I mean.

So, I'm starting to see vast improvements with my Platinum, and I think the next step is to find some sort of pressure techniques. From what I've been seeing from this purple platinum (Hikuma Doushi???) he uses Platinum's jabs like a Tekken player. That is to say, lots of "--> --> (neutral) jab x n" So, right now, I am working on that. From previous testings, before I became serious with Platinum as a sub, I noticed her transition to swallow moon overhead setups left gaps that could be mashed. So, I assumed that Platinum players needed to mash that 2a/5a hard, but now I'm starting to see how frustrating a Platinum with the right item can be. Missile and bomb oki is really nice for extending mixup post knockdown. My question now is, has anyone found any good blockstrings with items? For example, 5c jump cancel (up back) missile, rush in, 5a, 2a, 5b, 5c, 3c, or something like that?