[Xrd 1.1] Venom gameplay discussion thread

[DaiAndOh]

Tell me about it. Venom guide is discouraging to write given how much info there is x_x...still working on it.

I have no idea why (PQV 5P BH)xN works so well in practice, in theory they should be able mash something with 9 or so frames of startup after the QV, it's working in execution. Just have to confirm appropriately.

[Raynex]

(PQV 5P BH)xN works so well because the blockstun from the BH gives you a better frame advantage than just the 5P alone. It's definitely not + or anything, but at the distance Fino's doing it, I don't think 2/5Ps or any fast normals actually reach. It's a pressure string that's 100% reliant on spacing. 

From what I've seen though, even if they successfully mash something out, it ticks you and the QV CHs and Fino is always able to 5P BH into 6H xx oki anyways. It seems to be low risk / high reward and a decent blockstring filler if you're not sure what you want to do to keep them blocking. You can also confirm into 5P BH, 6H on jump outs and transition to full combos. It's weird.


I agree, there is an incredible amount of information on Venom. Organizing it is difficult. But I'm starting to see that there are certain setups which multiple oki paths, and those seem to be best. In this way you can create your own flow-chart. For example, I've been cutting corner combos short and doing 2 ball oki with 6H xx HQV, S set. There are like 4 pathways from that formation alone allow you to deal with virtually anything.

Edited October 24, 2015 by Raynex

[DaiAndOh]

It makes for a lot of writing for a tired person x_x.

My main concern isn't the 5P BH though, it's the QV itself...well I want to try it more in particular in casual matches...just to see what people come up with.

[Pomparomp]

People are just scared of the QV counterhit, and around the time someone is noticing QV is happening it's too late, you gotta be real autopilot with it for someone to beat it on purpose. I played one dude ever who would stuff uncharged qv, and he was the braindead never stop pressing buttons type.

BTW, if you ever run into someone like that 2p > 5h will counterhit them  and qv will combo after that

[AlephAyin]

Messed around with some midscreen confirm into oki:

H-ball safejump in the video works against characters with long wakeup times,

Against anything faster, K ball>j.S BH YRC or P ball>66 5K dash up works. Opponent might be able to blitz the ball but Venom is outside of the rejection range.

Didn't test it on the whole cast so some tweaks here and there might be necessary.

 

Also since you lads have been talking about QV during pressure: A whiffed c.S 3rd hit into QV is nice bait for counterhits. Loses if they mash like mad DURING c.S though. Might be cool to catch someone by surprise. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjTo1sUgrBQ

 

[Pomparomp]

If you don't hit backdash j.s high enough it's possible for them to IB throw you on landing. Any ideas on how to bait and punish this on someone who tries it every time? It's simple enough to avoid altogether(git gud), but the options I've been labbing to bait it lose real bad to a bunch of throw OS's. I've been trying backdash, instant overhead j.s/j.h and backjump delayed mad struggle.

[DaiAndOh]

Why don't you press more buttons on your way down chaining from j.S or cancel into mad struggle?

[Pomparomp]

facing the wrong way to chain anything from j.s. is it actually possible to get mad struggle to come out the right direction after an air backdash j.s?

[DaiAndOh]

Oh I see what you're saying now I think. You meant backdash j.S low enough in that case?

If you want to bait it, I recommend airdash back j.P throw as a throw setup instead.

[Pomparomp]

I've never understood the point of the j.p whiff in that setup. Is it for hitbox manipulation or something?

[TittyFOFO]

To make them think you're doing j.S so they'll attempt to block. Better to whiff a normal than to just do an empty backdash, which I think people would be able to react to more easily.

[DaiAndOh]

Yup exactly. Seeing an action will make them think something is coming and at the time you're doing it, the ball has them in blockstun, but with very little time to react, they're out of blockstun and throw protection (and you should OS with 6S+HS for backdash/jump attempts)

[Pomparomp]

TK H set YRC 66 j.s > stuff seems like a good gimmick? The YRC obviously telegraphs what you're up to if you use it a lot or in the same spots, but as a once in awhile thing in the middle of common pressure strings it'll catch people off guard. If used during stuff where they're conditioned to stay blocking, or are very close to having to block something when you YRC ( i.e. inserted into 6h > pset > carcass raid > 5p setup or pset 2s x n pressure) you're not vulnerable to much other than a good reaction dp and your usual worst case scenario is 25 meter to be back in their face. If used raw, the ball doesn't actually cover your approach and just acts as a scare tactic, some extra damage, and midscreen it guarantees you're close enough to get a full confirm.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Pomparomp
66 not 88

[Raynex]

Do you mean TK H set in neutral, then double jump neutral as well? The H set puts the ball far in front of you. I think you mean 66 for iad j.S right? I can't quite picture what you mean, but it sounds like it's an approach option.

I actually like Blacksnake's method for cutting off zones and creating a wall. In neutral he'll do H Carcass YRC to lock down top to bottom midscreen, While it's bouncing he will charge a QV / 2 or 3 ball formation / Charge a stinger aim. They can't really challenge the H Carcass if they are further away, and charging a QV negates most projectiles and then you can hit it however you want to cut off even more space.

[Pomparomp]

Not so much an approach as getting back in ASAP. The H ball doesn't hit until j.s hitstun, so you need to have something else already putting them at disadvantage or catching them off. Inserting it into common pressure you can catch them downbacking whereas stinger YRC just gets blocked. When done input correctly they won't be able to see that you left the ground before you airdash back in as the YRC animation override the air set one. Not a super great mixup, but in my experience it's more likely to net you a confirm against more cautious players over stinger yrc or QV. 

It's deffo a gimmick though, and if you try to rely on it you just get rocked by jab mashing and dps once they figure out your trick.

[DubiousCurvLoop]

On 11/18/2015 6:16:59, Pomparomp said:

TK H set YRC 66 j.s > stuff seems like a good gimmick? The YRC obviously telegraphs what you're up to if you use it a lot or in the same spots, but as a once in awhile thing in the middle of common pressure strings it'll catch people off guard. If used during stuff where they're conditioned to stay blocking, or are very close to having to block something when you YRC ( i.e. inserted into 6h > pset > carcass raid > 5p setup or pset 2s x n pressure) you're not vulnerable to much other than a good reaction dp and your usual worst case scenario is 25 meter to be back in their face. If used raw, the ball doesn't actually cover your approach and just acts as a scare tactic, some extra damage, and midscreen it guarantees you're close enough to get a full confirm.

I think I've seen Fino do some stuff with that for oki. After a corner combo ending with 6h > P Summon, he would 5p the ball for meaty, TK H Summon YRC > 66 j.H > [H ball hit] > (land) > 2k.

 

I've had a good amount of success with it when I tried it out.  I think people get opened up by it for a couple of reasons:

1) they expect to block another air normal after the early air dash j.H, and get caught by land 2k.

Or 

2) they see the early air dash j.H (it looks unsafe), and try to throw punish Venom as he lands, but the H ball hit keeps them in blockstun as he lands, leaving them open to the low.

[Raynex]

I've been playing around with DP safe setups, since losing at RiiT5 in NY to a reversal spamming Leo. (I made it to top 8 btw, and was the only Venom to do so! It was a great experience, and LK was there and gave me great advice.)

The DP safe oki that we know of currently:  6H xx H set midscreen, dash sj.S [BH]

You can also do this off 2D at max range too, and it works vs. basically all reversals (haven't test supers).

My new goal was to find DP safe okizeme that leads to continued pressure on block but leaves you far enough that you don't get grabbed / randomed out by buttons. To that end:

Off any common 2D knockdown midscreen:

- K set, hold K and teleport, perform a very early j.K or j.D [BH] after reappearing. It hits meaty and is DP safe (works vs Sol, Ky, Leo, Sin, etc etc). As you appear and do the aerial, begin charging downback. If they DP, the ball whiffs and you get a full punish. If the ball is blocked you can S Carcass and begin rushdown (you have a charge), or do whatever else you please.

I tend to favour j.D BH her because firstly, it looks like you can hit Venom while he's doing the move itsef. 2nd, the ball hit makes it ricochet like an H carcass and they try to jump out sometimes, but it will hit meaty on it's way down and you get a combo if they try to escape or press buttons.

- P set, dash forwards into your opponents body, teleport before they rise and j.S [BH]. This setup is great vs DPs and throw mashing. You set the P ball and dash into them and push their body further away from the ball, when you teleport you end up being far enough that all DPs whiff. If they try to throw, the ball hit will CH them usually and you can dash back in and convert. This is something I created and I'm having a lot of fun with it.


Oh and anytime you use S set, P set, dash 5P double BH, you can block any standard DP. If they don't DP you can dash in and use the slow-moving balls to create pressure. Hope this new research helps!

[DaiAndOh]

HS ball off of 2D is a bit situational to wakeup timing and situational to spacing. Do note that Venom can somewhat choose face up or down timing with the 2nd or 1st hit of 2D. Some reversals (Ky, probably Jam as it worked in XX) can be low profiled by 2D as well.

You can also use K ball oki as a safe jump depending if you're going in front (come down with FD) or crossing them up (you go past them and reversals whiff). Again, note the spacing.

Corner stuff becomes all too easy. Personally I love the HS>S formation in the corner against DP characters, there's a wide variety of setups there.

A bit sorry I couldn't make it myself to RitT...but it was about 10 hours away...freakin upstate -_-;;;

[Pomparomp]

I'm planning to make some videos to help new/intermediate players visualize their options, something I had a whole lot of trouble with since I'm not good working from written aids. First one's gonna be basic burst baits/burst safe combos I wanna make sure I'm personally not missing anything notable. The easy burst bait options I'm aware of are

• From RC/anything you can just stop and downback 

c.s (1) > j.kshd > 6h

• From c.s 

Jump forward ib throw 

Jump any block HS mad struggle 6h midscreen/ c.s (1) > j.kshd > 6h stuff

• If they're properly bursting at airdash

Normal jump BNB variant with throw OS j.s

Normal jump BNB variant with throw OS j.s with a double jump after j.s to block the burst

•  From throw

Midscreen c.s throw bnb variant

I've seen blacksnake do a double+ jab corner combo, but I'm not exactly sure what it is and I need to lab until I find it I guess???

 

And a stern reminder that simply guessing a burst is a good way to die and you should just go for damage unless you're reacting or are 100% certain

[SnowMonkeyFunky]

 

Already put this in the video thread, but it definitely warrants further discussion.

Basically, what's happening is there is a setup to no ball BRO that 'seems' pretty airtight (if not, then at the very least it'll be easy to exploit escape attempts). If you start out with 66% tension or greater, you get the setup 3 times in a row. along with a guard gauge cranked so high even Sin would blush. What I want to test later is where it can be upbacked, IB upbacked, FDed to create gaps, what to do at different points if it ever hits, and if it's character hurtbox dependent. Thoughts?

Notation (on block):

2K clS[2] xx BRO, *2P xx CR, 2K xx H set, 2K xx K set, 2K xx S set, 2K* xx S Stinger [lvl2-3?], 2S xx S Stinger, 669 jH [BH] late airdash jSH, clS[1] xx CR, dash 2K clS[2] 5H [late BH] xx P set, 2S [BH] xx Teleport jH, clS[1] xx CR, dash 2K clS[2] > start setup again.

BRO lasts between the two " * ".

Didn't bother noting [BH] while the BRO is actually out since EVERYTHING is a ball hit.

 

 

[AznSpyderman]

SnowMonkey - Thanks for the notation. I actually wanted to learn that but never had the time to type it so I can print / write it down. I'm old school... Need write my shit down.

I find the most useless Venom stuff.

 

 

 

 

[Pomparomp]

backdash yrc overheads are pretty good for scamming that last hit to close the round, TBH

[AznSpyderman]

Just now, Pomparomp said:

backdash yrc for overheads are pretty good for scamming that last hit to close the round, TBH

I've only managed to make it hit Potemkin while crouching and can't do it mid screen.

Am I doing something wrong?

[Pomparomp]

You usually need something bigger than j,s, There's a local ky who does it all the time with his huge j.s. j,k might do the job?

[AznSpyderman]

4 minutes ago, Pomparomp said:

You usually need something bigger than j,s, There's a local ky who does it all the time with his huge j.s. j,k might do the job?

K doesn't come out fast enough as far as I can test.

Even crouching Leo doesn't get hit and he gets hit with cS3 crouching... smh

YRC backdash K isn't coming out fast enough to hit a P-set...:(