[Xrd 1.1] Ramlethal Gameplay Discussion Thread

[zaeris]

This is the same type of tech that has always existed in GG with May whale super (using dolphin hoops) and Dizzy fire super (using fish). It's not as practical for Ram because she NEEDS the meter in this game, but it's always a nice strat to keep in your pocket

I dont think its the same, in this case the projectile isn't moving during freeze frame but only the timer of her pine berry, Zato being able to move eddie during danger time freeze is similar.

[SuperFX]

I dont think its the same, in this case the projectile isn't moving during freeze frame but only the timer of her pine berry, Zato being able to move eddie during danger time freeze is similar.

 

I meant the cassius trick, but I'm pretty sure this is the same general property of "projectiles are not affected time stop/slowdown" that was inherent in other versions of GG. It's just slightly different in Xrd given the different set of circumstances (danger time, new RC properties). The shadow might be a little different, but pineberry definitely makes sense given the old rules.

[Syklone]

Anyone down for some video discussion/analysis? We can pick a specific video then get to work

[zaeris]

Anyone down for some video discussion/analysis? We can pick a specific video then get to work

I think the lack of avalible ram vids will make it a short analysis.

[Syklone]

One video at a time son. We've got enough for that. More than enough actually

[Syklone]

Honestly guys.....if Dizzy gets put in Revalator console release, Rammy is going to go to sub status. Real talk b

[zaeris]

Thats been my goal for a while now lol.

[zaeris]

Anyone else feel this sub forum and characters are neglected lol. At this rate I feel I have no reason to suggest ram to new players. Beside from that ass.

 

P.s wtb more ram vids.

[Goldnail]

Yeah it's in sad shape.

Also who plays Ramlethal at a level worth watching besides Daiji? Who's even the best Ramlethal in North America?

[Corbenik]

Pain is pretty great. Do we know where he ended up at evo? There's also at least one other good japanese ram that showed up on biscuit's japanese guilty gear lobby stream. Uses color 6, I think.

To be honest whenever I see discussion on this subforum, it usually comes with a lot of complaining. I mean, Ramlethal is a mid tier character with a couple of notably bad matchups. I usually don't see anything this bad from the bullet subforum, and she's low tier with a bunch of unwinnable matchups. The negativity really makes me not want to discuss anything.

[gli]

I don't know of anyone else besides Daiji, Karinchu, Dei... probably they have moved on from Ramlethal...

For NA, I have only spotted a couple of Ram players in tournament... Pain, TheArm05... ???

 

I feel like Ram is still underexplored so I still play her and have been learning new stuff in newer match-ups. 2S/2H is stupid good and is a centerpiece for certain match-ups that I used to have trouble with.

 

[zaeris]

I think in general ramlethal is quite a fun character to use, the only issue is that you don't get to play as often lol but that's part of the development. The other issue regarding her is competency, as in you need be at a certain level of match up experience and combo proficiency to make her work. Actually the bar is quite high where you can do simplisic combo but overall get lower tension return but you can pull off better corner and gain a lot more tension.

 

Anyway, think I'm just stagnating re-watching daiji vids. It doesn't help that there isn't more vids of ram players out there.

Edited August 9, 2015 by zaeris

[TheArm05]

I think Kuni is 100% worth watching. Especially since he has videos even as new as Evo (opposed to Daiji who I havent seen content for in a long time).

Best NA Ramlethal imo is Pain free atm but unfortunately he did not do very well at Evo. He died in pools if I heard right.

Also yes I play Ram in tournament and usually do relatively well.

I would be willing to discuss more tech/matchups/strategies etc. but I need people to bounce stuff off of. A lot of the times I post stuff and come back days later and it is still the most recent post lol.

Lastly on the subject of whining. The reason why people often cry about Ram is because she takes WORK to play and that work is rewarded with mediocre-bad neutral (matchup depending) and amazing setplay. Even once you reach the setplay level though if your execution falters for a second you very well can just get rolled over and lose the whole round.  

Ram is very unforgiving and the reward given =/= the time invested. That is why I absolutely do not recommend Ramlethal to newer players.

[Corbenik]

As far as combos go that vid that figured out optimal combos for tension and damage was pretty helpful.

Would you mind linking Kuni's stuff? I'd really appreciate it. I'd also appreciate some links to Daiji's and whoever else's nico communities.

I'm really new to Ram and a ton of games away from discussing anything with any real depth, so I'm mostly just trying to use what people post. Give me a hundred games or so and maybe I'll be able to actually understand the discussion.

It's not so much that I think there shouldn't be complaining as I think it needs it's own place. When I'm reading through the Millia matchup thread and I see a ton of stuff like "she's a better version of Ramlethal" I find that unhelpful and discouraging. It just derails otherwise helpful discussions. I'd also imagine that for players considering playing her it can be dissuading.

Is everyone here on the gg player list? Do you guys have twitters I could follow?

[Corbenik]

As far as combos go that vid that figured out optimal combos for tension and damage was pretty helpful.

Would you mind linking Kuni's stuff? I'd really appreciate it. I'd also appreciate some links to Daiji's and whoever else's nico communities.

I'm really new to Ram and a ton of games away from discussing anything with any real depth, so I'm mostly just trying to use what people post. Give me a hundred games or so and maybe I'll be able to actually understand the discussion.

It's not so much that I think there shouldn't be complaining as I think it needs it's own place. When I'm reading through the Millia matchup thread and I see a ton of stuff like "she's a better version of Ramlethal" I find that unhelpful and discouraging. It just derails otherwise helpful discussions. I'd also imagine that for players considering playing her it can be dissuading.

Is everyone here on the gg player list? Do you guys have twitters I could follow?

[zaeris]

Some of the evo stuff with kuni is a good watch. However is it me or is did the vid got taken away.

If you try searching nico there isn't much there too. Most vids now seems to be live twitch. 

 

Edit: seems the vids are back or I'm bad at searching lol, although there seems to be a new vid or two.

Edited August 9, 2015 by zaeris

[gli]

Well, for some people such as myself, I'm playing Ramlethal since Dizzy is yet to be playable. Ended up liking the character so it's nice to have a sub to fall back on if Dizzy is playable soon.

[Killey]

I was disappointed I didn't get to go to Evo this year and ask Kuni a couple of questions in regards to his approach with Ramlethal. Anyways, I have a friend who can ask Kuni a couple of questions and I figure this would be a good opportunity to get the Ramlethal players to brain storm some questions. I don't want to bother Kuni with a ton of questions so I was hoping we could consolidate on 5-10 good questions. Here are some ones that I'm thinking about.

1) What do you feel Ramlethal players should be doing to adapt to the changes than Ramlethal received in patch 1.10?

2) Who do you feel are Ramlethal's worst match ups and what's your take on approaching those match ups?

 

[Corbenik]

I think a couple of easy one questions are what changes would you like to see in Ramlethal/what changes would you like to see in other characters.

How do you feel about current state of Calvados?

What do you use as your signals that you should be setting swords in neutral?

Unrelated, but none of the video thread's links seem to be working for me. Did we lose all of that with the update?

[Syklone]

In case you dudes didn't know Daiji has an ask.fm account and he can answer some questions in English! However it isn't very fluent English so try to keep your questions simple and use easy words. Ask.fm/daiji902

[Syklone]

I don't know of anyone else besides Daiji, Karinchu, Dei... probably they have moved on from Ramlethal...

For NA, I have only spotted a couple of Ram players in tournament... Pain, TheArm05... ???

 

I feel like Ram is still underexplored so I still play her and have been learning new stuff in newer match-ups. 2S/2H is stupid good and is a centerpiece for certain match-ups that I used to have trouble with.

 

I don't think 2S/HS is very good btw. 2S YRC is aight doe

[TheArm05]

For Daiji's stream he is only on Nico and it only allows for 30 min streams at a time so the only way to catch him is to be on twitter and be ready to get in there. His twitter is @1_daiji

My twitter is @thearm05 I play in our weekly streamed Xrd tournaments and always place at least top 4 so you can check that out for some Ram tech.

As for sword sets in neutral its 100% matchup dependant (and player dependant). If the player doesn't know the matchup you can run 1.0 Ram on them all day until they figure it out.

For people that do know the matchup there are the chars where unequipped is useless/needs meter to function like Chipp,Millia, May and Sol. Sometimes you can get away with HS deployed vs these guys but its hard.

For the rest of the cast deployed works sparingly but you still mostly want to keep S sword and not rely on deployed HS too much.

Also yeah I am a huge fan of 2S yrc against airdash happy opponents. Make sure you do it preemptively or you will get bodied.

 

With the release of new dustloop the links in the video thread died so I just made a link to a Kuni playlist for the videos on Hotashis youtube channel.

Edited August 10, 2015 by TheArm05

[vanfleihight]

 

I would be willing to discuss more tech/matchups/strategies etc. but I need people to bounce stuff off of. A lot of the times I post stuff and come back days later and it is still the most recent post lol.

I've been meaning to write this but put it off for a while so here we go. I tried formatting it like SKD's analysis on the Izayoi thread. I'm sure I missed a lot of things but it's something to start with.

Match: LordKnight (Millia) vs. Kuni (Ramlethal): https://youtu.be/LdQ9tttb0Xw

Game 1 Round 1:

LK begins the match backing off and respecting Ram f.S. Millia's f.S is faster but from round start position doesn't actually reach Ram. Millia could jump over the f.S but wouldn't get much out of it as her air attacks don't have a lot of hitstun to allow her to land and get a knockdown. LK commits to an IAD j.P but Kuni IADs backward at the same time, causing him to whiff and land in f.S range in front of Kuni. Kuni lands first and is in position to take advantage of this. LK tries to backdash to get back to a safe range but gets chased by Ram 3K. LK tries to 2D, possibly anticipating a dash in or a sword set, but gets hit by counterhit f.S and bursts to prevent additional damage. Kuni techs immediately and commits to a forward airdash to try and regain pressure safely with j.P. Millia is spaced too far out and he ends up whiffing and is forced to block on landing. LK takes the opportunity to pressure and eventually gets a counterhit airpin and confirms into a combo that drops half way. Kuni bursts anyway and resets the situation back to neutral. Kuni tries to stuff Millia's advance with 2S but LK backdashes and causes it to whiff. LK takes advantage of Millia's speed and Ram 2S recovery to run in and punish for a full combo into oki.

One mixup later, LK cancels 2D into Chroming Rose to try and seal out the round with even more momentum. He does a blockstring into 214K~H and uses the frame advantage to run up and reset pressure. Kuni disrespects with 4P and gets hit by 5K, but LK goes into turbofall and gets hit by the second 4P. Luckily the roses keep him safe but LK is now in a bad spot as he just lost all pressure and now has no resources left to fall back on. Kuni tries to play safe and chicken blocks in the corner to wait out the rest of Chroming Rose. LK rushes in and connects with j.P but doesn't manage to convert into knockdown. Realizing this, he jumps back a bit and does turbo fall to cover the area below Kuni with roses and force him to block on the way down. Kuni techs in the air and regains his double jump, jumping forward and barely avoids the roses. LK is already on the ground and chases his landing, connecting with a hit into full combo and oki. The combo builds enough meter and LK spends 25 meter to YRC and get the 50/50 midscreen. Kuni tries to OTG burst to avoid the oki but whiffs entirely as LK backdashes. LK IADs in, lands a hit, and wins the round.

Round 2:

LK jumps forward j.P for low commitment engage and uses his air option to jump back after seeing it miss. After some dancing around in neutral, LK tosses out hairpin and gets some pressure but nothing comes out of it. Kuni gives up positioning on the pin to avoid getting pushed into the corner and LK gets to pick it back up for free. Some more neutral happens and Kuni attempts to set 6HS out but gets his landing chased by Millia 5K. LK pressures a bit and lands a raw 2D but ends up backdashing, probably not expecting it to hit. He does haircar to try and get a surprise low into knockdown but Kuni blocks it and begins to try and get out of the corner. Kuni tries to airdash out and Millia responds with AA 2H, but Kuni uses j.2HS to stop movement momentum and avoid it. LK jumps up and gets hit by the sword and Kuni lands a small combo and gets out. He sets 2HS again to cover the air and uses 3K and dauro to cover the ground and slowly try to push Millia into the corner. The dauro lands at an awkward timing and Kuni can't convert into a combo. He sets 2HS again to force Millia into the corner but this time doesn't cover the ground so LK runs under it and gets out free.

Kuni is now in the corner and LK wants to take advantage of this so he slowly tries to move forward safely. Kuni sets 2HS again to cover himself and force his way out safely with j.P. He lands at an awkward spacing and 4P whiffs and he ends up trading hits with LK and they go back to neutral. LK IADs in to gain pressure and Kuni makes a guess to blitz any air normal LK presses. Millia was spaced too close and the IAD ends up making her whiff to her benefit, and she recovers in time to punish the blitz into knockdown. LK opts for secret garden oki moving toward Ram and covers the space in front of Millia with 2S. The 2S stuffs dauro but doesn't get converted into knockdown and Kuni gets out. Kuni sets 2HS to cover air space and tries to airdash in with j.S but Millia crouches under it and punishes and pushes all the way into the corner.

A few mixups later LK cancels a blocked 6K into Chroming Rose to try and seal the round again since Kuni has no resources to work with and safely get out. LK attempts the same blockstring as last time and this time Kuni disrespects again with 4P but earlier, hitting her out of the roll. The rose protects Millia and LK lands a 2K, but doesn't gatling into f.S and presses HS instead. The gap lets Kuni 2KK into knockdown and LK bursts to prevent oki. LK still has Chroming Rose and lands 214K~H but doesn't manage to land a combo. He tries to TK turbofall to put roses on the screen but Kuni makes one hell of a guess and throws him out of it and lands the mixup to win the round.

Round 3:

LK is now in a bad spot as Kuni's burst just came back at the end of the last round and he just spent his. LK tries to play safe with low commitment j.Ps. Kuni jumps in and gets a counterhit 4P and tries to convert into 2KK knockdown. The spacing is too far and the first hit whiffs. The second whiff gets blocked and the third lands. LK probably saw the first hit whiff and tried to jump out thinking he had space but ends up getting caught out of jump startup. Kuni lands the mixup and gets a corner push. He tries to do the bnb on the PPP wallsplat but the combo drops as Kuni hits c.S too early and doesn't leave enough hitstun for the sword to land. Kuni notices this and opts to get a reset with his second sword, creating a huge gap for LK to disrespect with. LK doesn't press any buttons however, and gets hit by the overhead into a combo. LK just now gets his burst back but holds the burst until he sees Kuni commit to the combo with c.S so that he can't get baited.

Kuni techs and immediately recalls S sword to have a neutral tool to work with. After some neutral Kuni hits with a f.S and 2HS and tries to run up and j8D for some extra damage and corner carry. Realizing he misses, he YRCs to try and chase LK's landing with airdash j.8D but misses completely. LK commits to an IAD hairpin at the same time Kuni happens to jump j.2HS. Kuni tries to YRC and hit him with j.K on the way down but LK lands first and gets an AA c.S into a combo push into the corner. LK has an execution error with microdash disc and Kuni wants to take advantage of this with f.S but LK is still at significant frame advantage and counterhits him for his trouble. LK spends the 50 meter to try and combo into knockdown. It looks like he tries to make it burst safe by doing 2P but Kuni bursts after 2P while LK inputs 2K. Kuni gets out and sets 2HS in the air to cover space. LK tries to chase the jump with j.P but Kuni airdashes over him and he ends up jumping into the corner.

LK eventually gets out and they go back to neutral midscreen. Kuni jumps and sets j2HS to try and lockdown Millia and does j.2D to try and bait out LK to run under the sword set. Kuni then immediately launches 6S to cover ground space Millia would have ran through. He sees LK backing off and tries to chase with dauro twice. LK does YRC Disc, maybe expecting a third dauro, and starts moving forward in reaction to Kuni jumping. Kuni YRCs in return and tries to preemptively beat a rising Millia j.P with j.2D but neither people land anything. LK lands and backs off again and is now fullscreen away from Kuni. Kuni takes this opportunity to try and push her into the corner, using 6HS to cover the ground and 2HS to cover the air. He sees LK double jump while setting swords and does a rising j.P to cover every option LK has left. Turbofall and airdash get hit by j.P and if Millia just blocks the sword, Kuni can react and air dash in and mash j.P to pressure him all the way to the ground. LK is also at a significant risk of getting chipped out right now as he has a pixel of life left and no tension for FD. He opts to turbofall and gets hit by j.P on the way down, and Kuni wins the match.

Analysis:

This set is a great example of how this matchup is heavily momentum based and difficult for Ram.

Millia's speed and low profile dash neutralizes a lot of sword strength and forces Ram to be more diligent/committed with controlling space on the screen. Millia's gameplan in this matchup is to play around set 2HS and f.S and get Ram to block hairpin or j.P. She has the initiative a lot of the time and has to make Ram play her game.

Ram has to constantly control space with set 2HS to even get in and start pressuring, much less get a knockdown. She also has to be sure to do this while retaining air options (off regular jump) to deal with Millia running in and chasing her landing or jumping up for a rising j.P. Ram could approach with a low air dash j.S but getting the height just right is relatively difficult and whiffing j.S leads to immediate punishment and oki. Trying to approach with j.P/j.K is also a risky guessing game against 5P/6P/2HS, which all lead into knockdown. Ram's meter gain mechanic is displayed very prominently here as Kuni struggles to even get 25 meter much of the time since LK manages to avoid a lot of the sword attacks and sword attacks are generally late in combos (which LK bursts out of most of the time).

LK gives up a lot of momentum in this set in two main instances. The first instance is that every time he landed a knockdown midscreen, he didn't meaty Kuni's wakeup and Kuni could just disrespect his mixup and upback for free. In some cases he might have found himself standing too close after microdash disc and was afraid of getting of getting thrown. The second instance is when he does Chroming Rose in round 1 and 2 to try and steamroll the matches. He supers after doing a high/low and likely gets significantly less frame advantage than if he were to just disc > super raw. As a result he has to do some weak string afterward into digitalis, which has a gap during the roll and is only +5 if they actually block it. He ends up having to use that frame advantage to gap close instead of doing more high/lows and Kuni accepts the risk and mashes out since he was losing anyway. In both rounds LK does this and loses a huge amount of resources in addition to letting Kuni get back in the game. If he is resolved to use Chroming Rose anyway, he should just do the setup off disc or hairpin so he can spam TK Badmoon/Haircar for significantly better mixup and frame advantage.

Kuni has some interesting use with his swords. It seems like he holds onto HS sword until he feels like there is a good opportunity to launch and once he does, he goes out of his way to never recall it, instead leaving it out for j.2HS sets. He plays pretty consistently low risk in neutral and almost never tries fishing for random hits with dauro. His main problem seems to be judging spacing/positioning in many situations and combo consistency (mainly the double sword set after PPP). One example is judging whether or not LK's first hairpin combo on him would drop and then whiffing a huge 2S immediately after he bursts that. Another is when he has to YRC a whiffed j.8D to try and chase LK's landing. However, his consistently strong sword control and a couple of good reads is all he needs to deal with Millia's low hp.

 

 

[zaeris]

Thanks for the write up. I believe these post should be encourage. 

 

As for Millia vs ram, at some point I wonder if LK has played against a ramlethal with more depth before.

[gli]

I don't think 2S/HS is very good btw. 2S YRC is aight doe

I think 2S > 2H is worth having even without meter to YRC.

The reward just for attempting 2S is well worth the risk:

On CH you get an easy confirm, net a ton of damage, get meter, and rack up the stun meter.

At the very least, you are getting some meter even if it gets blocked.

On whiff, yes it's highly punishable, but I think it's well worth the risk to keep your opponent's approaches honest.

 

2S YRC is very strong yes but I don't think counting out 2S > 2H meterless outright is the right call to make.

 

 

Edited August 11, 2015 by glirandly