cr0wley Posted July 7, 2009 Posted July 7, 2009 Finally played a decent Carl and made me wonder what exactly I should be doing in this matchup. He's probably the least played character right now so I figured it would be good to compile some anti-Carl stuff here. So to get things started... What are some reliable combos to use against Carl? Some of the standard ones don't work against him, so what should they be replaced with?
Dakanya Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 For combos, please read the sticky. There are a few in the latest post in the video thread too. I don't really have anything specific to say besides outzone him.
individuals Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 be aware of nirvana as far as anything non combo related, which goes in zoning i guess. if its behind you and carl is far and he tries to atk with nirvana, just jump backwards and give it a whack if opponent is good at carl only combos.
cr0wley Posted July 8, 2009 Author Posted July 8, 2009 Yes, I know there are combos in the sticky... but not all of them. If you check, there actually aren't a whole lot of Carl specific combos in there.. maybe 3-4. Some of the combos aren't even confirmed yet. Like what would be a good itsuuC combo for him? I tend to have trouble landing that one in particular against Carl. I've had a few more matches against some good Carls and a big goal is to definitely not let him get you between him and Nirvana. A really good Carl will use his sweep to combo into her teleport and lead into a trap/loop setup from there.
individuals Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 combo i use doesnt work on noel, so it probably wouldnt work on carl either, but i found an alternative on noel, so it might work on carl. 5b>5c>itsuuC>dash>6C> 2b>2c >j.b>j.v>D>airdash>j.C>staff return hit>6C>tsubame>6c>3C 2b>2c is usually 5c for me, but guess it doesnt work on small chars. idk if u can fit in a j.b before the j.C. if done right puts him in the corner, so u can do shinshin or stick super to apply some pressure on their wakeup (strategy used on anyone really...) but if you keep carl in the corner pressured, nirvana will just be colored pixels.
Shining Aquas Posted July 15, 2009 Posted July 15, 2009 Try to bait Carl players into recklessly throwing punches with Nirvana. When you see 6D punch coming, interupt it with 5B if you can reach, or 6B if not. If you see 41236D drill punch, jump over it and anticipate Carl's jump-ins/anti-airs (which without Nirvana are extremely limited in quantity) Basically, if you want to keep this fight in your favor you need to keep Carl distracted with trying to land Nirvana hits. Fly around the board if you have to, staying still is the best way to die. Also, when the puppet is decommissioned, take advantage of the fight and move on the offensive while paying attention to the puppet's lifespan.
Lord Knight Posted July 17, 2009 Posted July 17, 2009 Jump around and hit B, he can't really stop you. Anytime you see Nirvana acctivate, use 6C. It does the most damage to her. Normal itsuu combo works midscreen, corner is 5B 5B itsuuC haku chun 5B JCD airdash JBC land tsubame 6C 3C.
Zenmetsu Posted July 17, 2009 Posted July 17, 2009 I used to use 6C against Nirvana all the time without thinking and it used to produce good results but Carl can 236B right through as you're doing that and you're pretty much in the loop at that point since 6C takes forever to recover. Against competent Carls you really have to be wary of using 6C because he might just be activating to bait you. He can alternatively IAD>j.2C while you're 6Cing the doll and that puts you in the loop too. Jumping B will usually work against Carl as long as the doll isn't close enough for 623D anti-air. Plus j214.C Alle is a reliable air-to-air answer to Litchi. Although it doesn't do any damage it can momentarily shut down your air game. If Alle. is out, Litchi's j.C can clash with it to give you an idea of how high the priority of that move is. I think the biggest weakness that (staffed) Litchi has in this match is her lack of threatening low moves. Carl can 236B (his command dash) through a lot of Litchi's moves except 2B. But you hit him with 2B and the most you're ever gonna get is Ryuuissou super if it's spaced right, yet you gotta keep him honest somehow (more often than not you're only gonna get 2B>6B lulz punishment). Edit: Just checked in training mode and Litchi's 2A and 2C can also stuff Carl's dash but like 2B you pretty much have to psychic this. Both will get you a CH but if you do the 2C after Carl has crossed you over then there are no opportunities for combos since his body will be behind you. If Carl is trying to do IAD cross-up j.2C during pressure without the doll, Litchi's j.A is the answer, but you have to anticipate it and hopefully you timed/spaced it right. Also, when you're pincered you can either IB>Tsubame or IB>jump+FD>IB next hit>jump out. Finally, this is a general tip that applies to any character fighting Carl, but remember that you need to Barrier Instant Block to prevent Guard Libra from increasing.
Diveman Posted September 11, 2009 Posted September 11, 2009 ok I was talking about this on the carl subforums, but it seems that nobody tested it although there´s now a jap video that shows it, so i´ll post it here: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm8162207 at 14:16 Basically I was suggesting to use daisharin to get out of carls clap trap, and I think it works, so throw breaking and doing air daisharin while inputting directions so that the staff rotates around litchi prevents carl from continuing the loop (you´ll still get hit by the clap) so rule #1 against carl never let out your staff unless its a combo or Nirvana is dead
soujiro seta Posted September 11, 2009 Posted September 11, 2009 ok I was talking about this on the carl subforums, but it seems that nobody tested it although there´s now a jap video that shows it, so i´ll post it here: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm8162207 at 14:16 Basically I was suggesting to use daisharin to get out of carls clap trap, and I think it works, so throw breaking and doing air daisharin while inputting directions so that the staff rotates around litchi prevents carl from continuing the loop (you´ll still get hit by the clap) so rule #1 against carl never let out your staff unless its a combo or Nirvana is dead I main carl. I just saw it, but there are several questions i need to ask. Is there a minimum height you have to be above the ground to do daisharin? Cause the carl in the vid was doing the loop at a higher height. Nirvana's head level is the correct height as seen here 0:38 - 0:50 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzkE8gN3SOw&feature=channel_page, or here 1:30 - 1:41 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2tl1DfGztw&feature=channel_page. This is the same thing for arakune as well, at nirvana's head level he can't do his special to escape, as shown in the video. That's what one of the arakune's on the board said. Even if you can still do daisharin at that height, the thing is the carl didn't try to slide through the staff, 236A, as that might have worked. If he can slide through the staff then he'll just juggle litchi back into the air and continue the loop. My xbl gold has run out so unfortunately I can't test it out for you as I would need 2 humans.
Brent-quest Posted September 11, 2009 Posted September 11, 2009 That could be pretty useful. Seeing as Carl gets a nearly stationary loop on Litchi at the right height for almost guaranteed 100%. =/
Diveman Posted September 11, 2009 Posted September 11, 2009 Yes, but my idea is that even if carl slides through Daisharin, remember that you can choose the directions at the beginning, so a good idea would be choose directions so that the staff "rotates" around and prevents carl from doing any kind of follow-up
soujiro seta Posted September 11, 2009 Posted September 11, 2009 Yes, but my idea is that even if carl slides through Daisharin, remember that you can choose the directions at the beginning, so a good idea would be choose directions so that the staff "rotates" around and prevents carl from doing any kind of follow-up If that is the case, then yes it should work. The staff would prevent carl from continuing the loop. 1 more character added to the list. . lol, this is bad news. The matchups with hakumen and rachel are hard enough, now what, Litchi? In a few months watch people discover ways for everyone to escape. Carl will be back in the slums with hakumen and tager I tells ya.
feri Posted September 12, 2009 Posted September 12, 2009 Also, when you're pincered you can either IB>Tsubame or IB>jump+FD>IB next hit>jump out. Get hit in the air by the punch and your free (backdash into it if you have too) rather than jump FD and get brought back down by it.
Mikachiru Posted September 15, 2009 Posted September 15, 2009 I think Litchi's air spinning kick attack (sorry, I don't know the name/input) outprioritizes Carl's jC. I have a friend who uses Litchi and I can't win when it comes to aerials. For the record, I love fighting Litchis (plus Bangs, Tao, Rachels, and Carls). They're so much fun...=3
4Corners Posted September 16, 2009 Posted September 16, 2009 If that is the case, then yes it should work. The staff would prevent carl from continuing the loop. 1 more character added to the list. . lol, this is bad news. The matchups with hakumen and rachel are hard enough, now what, Litchi? In a few months watch people discover ways for everyone to escape. Carl will be back in the slums with hakumen and tager I tells ya. 1) They need meter 2) They need staff 3) They need to have the timing for this shiz down It doesn't really mess up the matchup too much, I think.
Lord Knight Posted September 16, 2009 Posted September 16, 2009 Yeah, it does. It's pretty easy to get meter against Carl. Also if something is helpful, people will learn it. She doesn't really have a reason to place staff in neutral against him either. Ragna requires meter too btw.
4Corners Posted September 16, 2009 Posted September 16, 2009 Yeah, but Ragna's can't be messed up by a small switch in timing, due to the massive amount of invul upper has. I'm fairly certain Litchi's can be messed up, but maybe her super has more invul than I thought it did. Why is it easy to get meter vs Carl? I was under the impression that most of this match was about zoning/controlling space. But ummmm, I could be wrong. What Carl do you play vs regularly, LK? Also, has he tried uppercutting your super during the flash when you try to break it?
STenSatsu Posted September 16, 2009 Posted September 16, 2009 I thought they already had to have the clap going for the most part by the time he threw you, so unless Carl wants to play games and risk you getting out for free it'd be rather silly to try and bait escape+super. Super has 8 frames of invul so the timing shouldn't be too bad. Can't answer why it is easy to get meter though you can j.b in on him fairly easily if you want to rush a bit.
Lord Knight Posted September 16, 2009 Posted September 16, 2009 I just look at it as Litchi should only even be in the situation of getting clapped looped if she gets trapped by him, and he has some canned strings which are pretty easy to IB (but safe).
4Corners Posted September 16, 2009 Posted September 16, 2009 Ah, I didn't know it had that much invul. It felt like less when I was testing this. Also, I thought you guys were trying to get the clap to miss entirely, so I thought you'd tech super late, then do the super. If that were the case, I ~think~ you can super flash buffer an srk/fermata, for retarded damage. All Carl needs is to hit with pretty much any move, and he gets the loop. I could be as simple as rolling through a move and starting it. j.b is pretty good, but I've stopped going anywhere near her if she's in the air first. Rolling through her aerials/avoiding her being the one to make contact seems pretty important to me. I kinda forget about IBing generating so much tension, since I kinda freestyle my pressure and normally get most people to eff up in one or two reps. Some people are really on point with their blocking, but then you just grab them after a 2a/5a. Buuuuuuuuuuuuut this is just my experience, and we're theory fighting. Our Litchi still gives me some trouble, but I feel like it's more him than the character. I dun really know what Litchi has in this match-up now that I know it better. Her air priority is nullified if you get up there first/have Nirvana nearby. You can outpoke/turtle her, and going solo until you have her in a bad position really isn't that hard, since you can afford to mess up REALLY badly 3-4 times. Staffless litchi has some stuff, but she apparently doesn't want to be staffless in this match-up anymore, so I dunno. =( I need to get out into the wide world and fight the people that think the super breaks are game-changers vs Carl. It's like they forget about that he still has mid-screen unblockables, ability to maneuver past a LOT of set-ups, and just how dumb Nirvana can be. That and a pretty simple combo (not throw loop) that does 4-7k damage (depending on how you start it) and gets 60% tension, on top of putting them right into the throw loop. He's a glass cannon, sure enough, but he's a glass cannon that can vaporize a city. lololol I just lurve Carl. Okay, so what specifically does Litchi have in this match-up, staff and staffless?
JediMindTrick Posted September 16, 2009 Posted September 16, 2009 Carl also needs to play for more than just the loop imo. Otherwise the match gets stale poking Nirvana into submission.
4Corners Posted September 17, 2009 Posted September 17, 2009 JMT, he can do it off anything. I mean anything. Carl doesn't "play for the loop", per se. He plays until he gets it, and then he wins. Or he doesn't, and he loses. Simple as that. It's a zoning match. Prolly will be with or without the loop, since Carl doesn't like being carried across the screen by combos and landing in the corner without Nirvana.
soujiro seta Posted September 19, 2009 Posted September 19, 2009 JMT, he can do it off anything. I mean anything. Carl doesn't "play for the loop", per se. He plays until he gets it, and then he wins. Or he doesn't, and he loses. Simple as that. It's a zoning match. Prolly will be with or without the loop, since Carl doesn't like being carried across the screen by combos and landing in the corner without Nirvana. This is a tricky matchup I would say. Once litchi corners you the game can end in 10 seconds. I faced a litchi who would go on auto pilot for a 20 hit combo off every hit confirm, which inevitably would land me in the corner and then he would proceed to rape. You can't even summon nirvana and even if you do it won't make a difference cause you can't do anything and even if you were to somehow buffer in one of her move she'll just stop cause you'll be blocking litchi's mixup. Assuming you can block high and low fast enough you just prolong the rape until she gets a guard break and is put on auto pilot once more. If the litchi knows what she's doing I don't see how you can escape her corner pressure without a counter assault or burst. Seriously, that guy was the best litchi I faced before my 360 crapped out and before my gold subscription ended, which was a while ago. Her corner pressure is almost like the clap loop, once you can't counter assault or burst and he's timing her attacks correctly so that it will be very difficult to find an opening, you might as well just put your controller down and wait for the next round. Considering carl can't summon nirvana when he's under her corner pressure, has the lowest health, and you might have gotten negative penalty from hiding behind nirvana, she'll be done with you in no time. Add that to the fact that now she can escape the loop and the match just got worst. Whereas you would have won, well now she gets a second chance, nirvana is almost out of meter and will be destroyed soon. I didn't realize how good her pressure really was until he came around. Other litchi's I faced weren't bad, but i could escape their corner pressure without bursting or CA. I mean this guy could 20 hit combo me off of every thing, are you serious? . I played him twice in ranked and lost both times. Carl also needs to play for more than just the loop imo. Otherwise the match gets stale poking Nirvana into submission. Correct Now you have be creative and waste so much meter doing resets and crap. this is the same problem with the hakumen-rachel matchup, ragna not so much. The matchups would be so much easier if the loop worked, but once you throw it out you really see how good and creative a carl player is and you can tell the difference from the carls who only rely on the loop and those who rely on the loop but also know so much more. Ragna's rushdown is much easier to escape than litchi, and you can handle him pretty well without nirvana, whereas with litchi and her staff flying every where and an accidental hit confirm can lead to auto pilot, you'll need nirvana around.
4Corners Posted September 19, 2009 Posted September 19, 2009 ^ IB and roll with throw invincibility imbued. If she takes to the air, you can get out. I dunno why you'd even bother summoning Nirvana in that situation, unless you have meter to do punch rush. Even then, that's a waste. If you're in the corner vs her with no meter, though, you honestly just deserve to lose. One basic Carl combo should net you enough meter for burst. If you got bursted into the corner, then jumpblock and intentionally get hit by something that they can't follow up properly. Voila, you're out! It's really the same as getting away from Carl's pressure. Litchi has really good corner pressure, but, like Dizzy, if you wait long enough, you'll get out. But who knows? Maybe you're fighting toptier Litchis and I'm not.
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