TGS Posted July 14, 2009 Posted July 14, 2009 After playing a bunch vs. Rachel over the weekend, I can most definitely say that this matchup is pretty gay. Hell, I'd rather fight a Nu than a Rachel IMO, but that's a different topic altogether. Anyways, I feel it's definitely a 4-6 matchup in favor of Rachel, especially with her being able to spam shit all over the place until you mess up somewhere and she starts to rush your shit down. Nevertheless, I was able to learn a thing or two from those numerous losses and hopefully they'll make the matchup a little bit easier (lol, yeah right) or something. First thing you should know is you CAN do the clap loop on Rachel. Even though she can escape it, it's a matter of catching her when she has no wind meter. Basically the way Rachel's wind meter works is it doesn't regenerate unless she's considered in a grounded state (i.e. standing on the ground), so yeah. You can go clap happy with her, since she doesn't regenerate any wind meter even if she escapes the throw and you manage to reset the loop. However, shit's easier said than done though... Good luck trying to catch her without a wind stock, even if it means turtling hardcore to get her to try to do wind mixups on you, which is obviously suicidal if your blocking isn't up to par. Anyways, most likely when you do hit her, she'll definitely have a wind stock or two, so obviously you're stuck using Carl solo combos most of the time (unless you can find an inescapable setup that guarantees a Sandwich loop or trap against Rachel that doesn't involve Rachel already being in between you two and not in the air), so yeah. However, if you do manage to miraculously trap that bitch in between you and the doll, milk that shit as much as possible so you'll either hopefully have ended the round or gained a huge life lead, and IMO it's much easier to deal with Rachel when she has to play catch up against you as long as you keep running correctly and utilize Nirvana defensively (usually with 8D, 4D, or 623D) to make Rachel think twice about trying to close the gap. That's all I have for now; more to come later...
Kyle Posted July 14, 2009 Posted July 14, 2009 combo into super for DMG. whatever...2C, 8]D[, 2C, 8]D[, 2C, 214214]D[
Rozy Posted July 14, 2009 Posted July 14, 2009 I've practiced a lot in training with a Lvl 100 CPU Rachel, and well that isn't easy. But I do notice she has a lot of openings in certain cases. Catching her in mid air can be easy, maybe you don't need to loop and just use that special that Nirvana has that sends a rush of air upwards (i forgot the name, sorry) I believe that's even stronger than Rhapsody of Memories, (but that move is really for cornering). The only problem is that you'd have to time it just right, otherwise Rachel will fly off with just using her Drive. Another thing that makes me angry is...why does Carl have such crappy DEF to lightning! -_-
severin Posted July 14, 2009 Posted July 14, 2009 crappy DEF to lightning I wasn't aware that Carl was a water-type shota.
PhaethonH Posted July 15, 2009 Posted July 15, 2009 Carl has crap defense against everything. The 214214D Distortion Drive (Fermata) puts Nirvana highly vulnerable. Even a mere jab interrupts her attack. More significantly, the CPU plays nothing like a human player. That said, DO NOT GO INTO A LONG-DISTANCE WAR AGAINST RACHEL. Nirvana cannot cover the distance properly, especially against a run-away Rachel (who won't get Negative Warning due to spamming a bazillion different pieces of cruft thrice per runaway). Your best strategy really is: Don't let it happen. Did it happen? Good luck -- try combinations of Vivace (214A/B) and Nirvana-covered airdashes. Don't let it happen next time. Better options may exist, but until they're discovered, this is what we have. Keep in her face -- you may take damage, but you're in a better position to retaliate at point blank range than full-screen.
4Corners Posted August 7, 2009 Posted August 7, 2009 Hey, has anyone aside from me had luck catching her outta her wind when she breaks the clap? I get her really deep in Nirvana, release the clap+grab, and when she techs and tries to fly away, the clap catches her. I've done this to a few Rachel players now. Is it just them messing up, or is it because I have her pretty much encircled in the clap?
mynus Posted August 8, 2009 Posted August 8, 2009 Hey, has anyone aside from me had luck catching her outta her wind when she breaks the clap? I get her really deep in Nirvana, release the clap+grab, and when she techs and tries to fly away, the clap catches her. I've done this to a few Rachel players now. Is it just them messing up, or is it because I have her pretty much encircled in the clap? Rachel can tech diagonally down-back/forward to avoid the clap as well. that would of course put her back in between Carl and Nirvana so they might think twice about it, but its possible. Perhaps the way you are doing it makes it so they have no choice but to re-sandwich themselves? that would be best. Gonna test it out.
4Corners Posted August 9, 2009 Posted August 9, 2009 I dunno. I'm just enveloping her in the circle. I dunno how well it works if they dun tech. Haven't tested it or anything. EDIT: Sooooooooo I watched the vid of Carl vs Rachel that AutonomousR posted 2 days ago. Two really neat tricks: 1) j.2c alle-can to kill George 2) sj>summon>dj = safe approach that brings Nirvana closer, chicken block.
PhaethonH Posted September 3, 2009 Posted September 3, 2009 Another trick I've been using recently is Vivace through the cannon-launched rod setups. Nirvana takes the lead (61234D), the cannon ball hitting Nirvana causes hitstun on both ball and Nirvana, giving Carl time to maneuver and finally use Vivace to dodge through the cannon ball. It may take some practice to get used to the stop-motion characteristic of the ball in this situation. 236B tends to work better... more speed to get out of the way. But you need to take care of down-towards wind during Vivace, which can smack the ball into you... but then it has to get through Nirvana first. So... yeah... :shrug:
Mikachiru Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 Okay. It's pretty much agreed on that Rachel rapes Carl. Anyone got any tips for this match-up?
ZONG_one Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 ^ Never let it become a full screen battle. If you let it come down to that, shake hands and GG.
MisoSowee Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 I'm just curious.. how does 236a/b fare against her zoning? o_o
4Corners Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 ^ Never let it become a full screen battle. If you let it come down to that, shake hands and GG. Whut? lol If she wants to fight fullscreen, you play the Nirvana vs Rachel game. Put her in blockstun, move forward, and react accordingly. If she does wind at all, you can choose whether to call Nirvana back, or to try and block her rushdown and put her into a sandwich. Personally, I have more trouble with Rachels that are on my shit all day. I've found that hiding behind nirvana until you can put her in blockstun in pretty cool, and iad karacan xup shenanigans work pretty well. Get her sandwiched and rape. Forget about lameass throw loops. Mix that shit up aaaaaaaaalll day, son. I'm just curious.. how does 236a/b fare against her zoning? o_o If you get predicted, it's a CH. If you do it right, though, it works. Personally, I prefer sj, dj (chicken guard) and fueco+iad karacan. --- Honestly, I think Zoogs probably knows more about this match-up than I do. All I know is that IBing 5b is the shit, since it saves you from j.2c shenanigans.
Zoogstin Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 I don't have much experience against Franks the Tank's Rachel because he hates Blazblue so much. The only reason he even took the time to get decent with her was because I joked around saying "BB is the new GG." That quote right there cost me the tournament.
4Corners Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 Got to experience this match against a Rachel that isn't a complete retard first-hand in the GFAQ v DL tournament. They recorded it, so you can give me as many pointers as possible. I ate shit and died a terrible death. Almost got it together in the end, but I dropped my combo. D: D: D: Also, NEVER use 6c overhead in pressure. Doesn't work against smart people. qwerty wrecked my shit hard for it, too. But yeah, this match-up is hard gay. I need videos of Kyaku doing it, ASAP! Also, I need to hit my ground loops hardcore. I dropped waaaaaay too many to call myself decent. Even if it's online, that was nooooooo good. Things to watch out for: 2c to counter any loose pressure 6a/lobelia to counter iad approach ANYTHING SHE FUCKING WANTS TO STOP NIRVANA DEAD! Seriously, I was wrong. DO NOT HAVE NIRVANA CHALLENGE HER! SHE STOPS EVERYTHING, INCLUDING THE SRK! Using 4d isn't worth it. She'll 5b, SJ, wind over to you, and then you're in a fuckload of trouble. Imma hafta practice IBing that 5b, too. I let him get away with so many jump shenanigans that I'm a bit ashamed. WATCH OUT FOR HOW MUCH DAMAGE SHE DOES OFF RANDOM BS! Seriously, I watched my life vaporize, and when I tried to burst, it didn't matter. I think you're better off not burst at ALL in this match-up, except for ~maybe~ when she gets you in the corner. Also, i need to learn the throw loop on her. Might as well make everything count, no matter how situational. Alllllllllllllllllllllllso Her j.a clashes with random crap and makes me sad. Her 5a clashed with my j.2c, wtf? Hate but love this match-up. I feel so alive playing it. I only won one entire match out of 10. I took random rounds, and came close once or twice, but this shit seriously sucks. WIND MAKES ME RAGE OMFGOMFOGEOIGLDJG:LKJK:J! Rachel's good, guize.
Mikachiru Posted September 29, 2009 Posted September 29, 2009 I'm pretty sure he meant that you need to stick with him until you learn your bad match-ups better, or to just give up on Carl. Rachel is pretty much penance for what we do to almost every other character. Own up or go home. He's not personally attacking anyone. Just telling people to stop bitching about the match-up and learn it. Example - Without wasting a LOT of wind and a pole nearby/super meter, Rachel isn't going to be doing over 3k per combo. Learn to block, respect the pumpkin, and frustrate her until she does wind mix-ups. Like zoogs said, if your blocking isn't up to par, GGs, but if it is, you might be facing a Rach with only 1 wind stock left. Combo into loop ASAP, make her burn the wind to get out, and loop that hoe. Also, my ground loop is the shit, guize. Start using it vs her fat ass. I think everyone is trying to learn the match-up. If we just wanted to complain about his match ups without learning anything, I think half of us would of given up by now (bad match ups, terrible attack/defense/speed/HP, and a high learning curve. I think I'm just going to complain about him instead of learn how to use him...). That's not what this forum is for. It's so we can discuss the problems we face and get answers on how to deal with them. In general, Rachel rapes Carl. (I'm actually smiling at this since my fangirl dreams are coming true). But this isn't set in stone. Good players know how to deal with their weakness and stuff. Also, she can do combos with one stock of wind: 2b/5b otg characters (Use midscreen on Nu and Carl. In the corner, also works on Noel and Tager.) 6b can be added after 5b at close range or if the opponent is cornered. BNB: Uses 1 wind: 5b > (6b) > 5cdc > 214a > dash > 2b > 5b > (frog hits) > 236a > dash > j.2c > [j.214b wind oki]} 3079 damage (3274 w/ 6b) For Carl, you can actually get 1 hit of 3c as an ender depending on what you do during the combo. I’ll add that combo sometime soon. Look at the Rachel forums for more. My sub is Rachel so I know she can do good damage with 1 stock of wind.
Kyle Posted September 29, 2009 Posted September 29, 2009 Mikachiru had somethign very important to say: Look at the Rachel forums everyone. To beat Rachel, Carl HAS to outplay her. PERIOD. Therefore, You should know Rachel's options and know how to guard them. If you find yourself saying: Wait.. that special cancels? WTH- That jumps on block. That's an Overhead?!?! You've lost already.
Kyle Posted September 29, 2009 Posted September 29, 2009 My point was- With a good enough DEFENSE. You can beat Rachel. It's like Eddie & ABA in GG. You will guard, A lot. By outplaying your opponent and knowing Rachel's options. You can have a high enough defense to prevail. This match is No where near as bad as Tager vs Nu & Rachel.
Mikachiru Posted September 29, 2009 Posted September 29, 2009 I edited my post, sorry if you missed it. I didn't mean it was as bad as tager vs nu, but as in it is a similar scenario, the carl has to be better than the rachel, or he has to bring his almost absolute best. If the rachel knows carl's options, and the carl knows rachels options, then the rachel is at an advantage. They both know what to look out for, but rachel is the better character, so the match already starts out in her favor. The problem with rachel vs carl is she can break your guard very very easily, and once that happens half your life is gone. You're gonna have to do something sooner or later, and if you saw the vid I posted, she can chip/kill you from far away. So not only can you make you come to her, up close and personal is still in her favor. Carl having the lowest health, guard libra, and damage output by himself doesn't help either. Also she's moving around the place all the time, and you need nirvana to hit her, but it can be hard if she is keeping an eye on both of you. The matchup is winnable, but can be very difficult, and at times you can almost feel hopeless. I thought Rachel can be looped, you just have to catch her without wind.
4Corners Posted September 29, 2009 Posted September 29, 2009 I think everyone is trying to learn the match-up. If we just wanted to complain about his match ups without learning anything, I think half of us would of given up by now (bad match ups, terrible attack/defense/speed/HP, and a high learning curve. I think I'm just going to complain about him instead of learn how to use him...). That's not what this forum is for. It's so we can discuss the problems we face and get answers on how to deal with them. In general, Rachel rapes Carl. (I'm actually smiling at this since my fangirl dreams are coming true). But this isn't set in stone. Good players know how to deal with their weakness and stuff. Also, she can do combos with one stock of wind: 2b/5b otg characters (Use midscreen on Nu and Carl. In the corner, also works on Noel and Tager.) 6b can be added after 5b at close range or if the opponent is cornered. BNB: Uses 1 wind: 5b > (6b) > 5cdc > 214a > dash > 2b > 5b > (frog hits) > 236a > dash > j.2c > [j.214b wind oki]} 3079 damage (3274 w/ 6b) For Carl, you can actually get 1 hit of 3c as an ender depending on what you do during the combo. I’ll add that combo sometime soon. Look at the Rachel forums for more. My sub is Rachel so I know she can do good damage with 1 stock of wind. Umm... If she starts the combo with 5b, you just suck at blocking. It should be doing less than 3.2k after proration. I started playing her lately, too, and I know about her damage output. Compared to Carl's basic combo j2c allecan>5b, 5c, 6d, jc, 5b, 5c, anklesnare, 8d, 2c, 8d, 2c, 8d Which does like... 4.5 k, can be ended early to do the super for 6k damage, aaaaaaaand resets the situation, all for less than 1/4 Nirvana meter? Yeah... My point was- With a good enough DEFENSE. You can beat Rachel. It's like Eddie & ABA in GG. You will guard, A lot. By outplaying your opponent and knowing Rachel's options. You can have a high enough defense to prevail. This match is No where near as bad as Tager vs Nu & Rachel. This. Learn to block, and DO NOT LET HER GET FULLSCREEN! The hardest part in this match-up is sandwiching her. Learn to IB to gain meter, CA to get her off you, and do some j2c teleport shenanigans to get her sandwiched ASAP. Once you've got her locked down, DON'T LET GO! You can set up retarded unblocks once you have meter, too. Beating Rachel, IMO is VERY dependent on whether you can get in and sandwich her. Course, I make this sound like it's easy. There are so many variables when fighting her, ESPECIALLY when she has wind stocked up. It's a hard match-up, but it's not even dependent on them messing up. You just have no room to screw up, since she can fullscreen punish you, HARD. EDIT: Oh, don't ever get sent to the corner by her. If she gets you there, it seriously is GGs.
Mikachiru Posted September 29, 2009 Posted September 29, 2009 The point was, she can do good damage with one stock of wind...
4Corners Posted September 29, 2009 Posted September 29, 2009 No She can do okay damage and set up GOOD oki with one stock of wind. Except her oki requires even more wind to be dangerous. Which goes back to: lrn2block Force her to burn all but one stock, and then fuck that hoe up.
4Corners Posted September 29, 2009 Posted September 29, 2009 Don't forget, though, kids 6a leads to super wind combo leads to super and super fucking hurts 5k damage for very little/no wind, and then you're set into a REALLY nasty oki situation When she has meter, be careful. Pretty much, make her waste meter on CA defensive escapes, and make her waste wind on her offense. The match is all about making her burn her meters. If she plays super conservative zoning, then you're more likely to have trouble, I think.
Alex073088 Posted May 7, 2010 Posted May 7, 2010 Don't forget, though, kids 6a leads to super wind combo leads to super and super fucking hurts 5k damage for very little/no wind, and then you're set into a REALLY nasty oki situation When she has meter, be careful. Pretty much, make her waste meter on CA defensive escapes, and make her waste wind on her offense. The match is all about making her burn her meters. If she plays super conservative zoning, then you're more likely to have trouble, I think. Yes rachel can deal decent damage off 5b>5cc+plus wind>frog>dash>2b>5b>tinylobelia+A>6a>sword iris>j.c>j.c>tiny lobelia +a in the air. However. 5b or even 2b for the matter have incredibly short ranges, and are horrid on whiff so if your getting hit by this frequently you really need to learn to block, and learn to do it better. The only clear way i see rachel hitting you with 5b or 2b>5b is with the use of a pumpkin which requires two winds not one or none(wtf you cant do shit without using a bar of wind. execpt for 6a air combo which you shouldnt be getting hit by either grounded due to the start-up frames of the move versus carls normals. carls j.a beats 6a clean it comes out to fast and is very spammy.) I seriously cannot believe you really wrote 5k damage for little to no wind. at the very least it will take 2 winds to even consider that possibility. one to mix up, the second to chain into super, and three if there are x number of rods where the super hits him at.
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