Central Fiction Arcade Plot Discussion (spoilers)

[BlazGearRegalia]

Given what we've learned, "the devil" could be referred to either Hazama or Ragna, given the fact that both are not associated with the sides of good or evil and simply do things for their own gains. Right now, it's a matter of how they will achieve their goals. From Ragna, I can already see him being put through some sort of trial by the Azure. [Given if the Azure wants to be sure that he's the fate changer it's looking for] As for Hazama, it's beyond me about what he and Terumi will do.

[1337 H@x0r]

Talking about the Four Horseman, it would me more appropriate to label Izanami as Death (duh!), Terumi as Famine (emotional eater constantly starving), Konoe as War (her character revolves around weapons) and Relius as Disease (his character modifies others like a virus to propagate his own goals).

 

The real wild card in all this mess is Hazama, not because he was genetically engineered to be a smother version of master manipulator Terumi but actually because he is a living Azure Grimoire synched out with Kusanagi.

If Ragna's incomplete AG and Nu's incomplete Kusanagi can produce a world ending Black Beast then what the heck would happen if Hazama's near-complete AG got together with Mu's complete Kusanagi?

In my understanding, Hazama jumped from being Terumi's meat puppet to godslayer hijacker and if he can pull a reverse hug.exe with his paired PFD he could possibly become a god and troll everyone else.

[JustaMaskedFreak]

1 minute ago, 1337 H@x0r said:

The real wild card in all this mess is Hazama, not because he was genetically engineered to be a smother version of master manipulator Terumi but actually because he is a living Azure Grimoire synched out with Kusanagi.

If Ragna's incomplete AG and Nu's incomplete Kusanagi can produce a world ending Black Beast then what the heck would happen if Hazama's near-complete AG got together with Mu's complete Kusanagi?

In my understanding, Hazama jumped from being Terumi's meat puppet to godslayer hijacker and if he can pull a reverse hug.exe with paired PFD he could possibly become a god and troll everyone else.

Perhaps this can be what Haz wants, Terumi considered a possibility and then he became Hazama's "puppet", probably to steal the power in the end and since Hazama is, technically, weaker than Terumi, this can make things go way worse than we wonder. But then... why he didn't pulled this in CS?

[Volt]

1 hour ago, JustaMaskedFreak said:

Wasn't he who created the Sector Seven AND the NOL too, or this is Hazama's doing? I may be worng, but I think I've heard this somewhere...

Oh yeah, forgot about that. Pretty sure Terumi and Relius had a hand in forming both the NOL and Sector Seven.

 

1 hour ago, JustaMaskedFreak said:

Perhaps this can be what Haz wants, Terumi considered a possibility and then he became Hazama's "puppet", probably to steal the power in the end and since Hazama is, technically, weaker than Terumi, this can make things go way worse than we wonder. But then... why he didn't pulled this in CS?

Nu said something about Mu not digging the idea of fusing with Hazama in the end of CP. Also, I don't think this is Hazama's plan. He wants to utterly destroy the Master Unit, if he hijacks it, he gets stuck in the same position as the OPFD and sooner or later someone will try to get him. Doesn't look like an advantageous position, especially if you consider he knows Terumi will probably backstab him if that happens.

Also, we don't know what exactly happens if you fuse a complete Murakumo and an Azure Grimoire. For all we know, Nu herself got fused with Take-Mikazuchi and it wasn't anything exactly noteworthy for anyone except Amaterasu.

Not to mention Nine liked Hazama's plan so much that she even offered to help him in Act 1. That narrows things down to what could both Hazama and Nine actually agree with in a plan. Initially I thought Hazama wanted to off Terumi for good, but that's counter-productive with his hijacking.

[1337 H@x0r]

Well...

25 minutes ago, Volt said:

Oh yeah, forgot about that. Pretty sure Terumi and Relius had a hand in forming both the NOL and Sector Seven.

 

Nu said something about Mu not digging the idea of fusing with Hazama in the end of CP. Also, I don't think this is Hazama's plan. He wants to utterly destroy the Master Unit, if he hijacks it, he gets stuck in the same position as the OPFD and sooner or later someone will try to get him. Doesn't look like an advantageous position, especially if you consider he knows Terumi will probably backstab him if that happens.

Also, we don't know what exactly happens if you fuse a complete Murakumo and an Azure Grimoire. For all we know, Nu herself got fused with Take-Mikazuchi and it wasn't anything exactly noteworthy for anyone except Amaterasu.

Not to mention Nine liked Hazama's plan so much that she even offered to help him in Act 1. That narrows things down to what could both Hazama and Nine actually agree with in a plan. Initially I thought Hazama wanted to off Terumi for good, but that's counter-productive with his hijacking.

I didn't say that Hazama planned to hijack the Master Unit, I said that he planned to hijack Kusanagi to fuse with her and become a god in his own right.

Kusanagi was created specifically to destroy gods, it is a power which supposedly can cut through even Tsukuyomi and utterly destroy the master unit so I'd say Hazama would be very interested in gaining such power.

Nu fusing with Take-Mikazuchi was just meant to ease control, since she was the actual brain in control of the Black Beast she would do fine controlling a being similar to it. Besides, TM doesn't have an Azure Grimoire which is the power core of the entire fusion to begin with.

No one knows what fusing Kusanagi with a complete Azure Grimoire would result in, however, since we know that a fusion of their incomplete versions results in a world ending abomination we can assume that fusing the complete deal could result in something even stronger.

As for Nine, she is batshit insane at this point, if Hazama wants to blow up Amaterasu and become a god she wouldn't care as long as her vengeance gets fulfilled and Celica is put on an adamantium bubble were nothing can possibly harm her.

[BlazGearRegalia]

A complete Grimoire + complete Kusanagi... I have a feeling Hazama might succeed in this, but then again, with Ragna on the road to the Azure, he might not have much time to enjoy it, and as far as Nine goes, we still have Es to try to talk some sense into her, and if that fails, I think it's safe to assume it's time to kill the witch. Either way, there's only two outcomes I've got in my mind:

 

Either Ragna succeeds to save everyone or it's GAME OVER for the world.

[JustaMaskedFreak]

1 hour ago, Volt said:

Nu said something about Mu not digging the idea of fusing with Hazama in the end of CP. Also, I don't think this is Hazama's plan. He wants to utterly destroy the Master Unit, if he hijacks it, he gets stuck in the same position as the OPFD and sooner or later someone will try to get him. Doesn't look like an advantageous position, especially if you consider he knows Terumi will probably backstab him if that happens.

Also, we don't know what exactly happens if you fuse a complete Murakumo and an Azure Grimoire. For all we know, Nu herself got fused with Take-Mikazuchi and it wasn't anything exactly noteworthy for anyone except Amaterasu.

Not to mention Nine liked Hazama's plan so much that she even offered to help him in Act 1. That narrows things down to what could both Hazama and Nine actually agree with in a plan. Initially I thought Hazama wanted to off Terumi for good, but that's counter-productive with his hijacking.

About Mu not digging the idea of fusing with Hazama, does it happens while Mu is in Hate mode or when Noel can control (a bit of) it? But yeah, I have to agree he is in disadvantage since he is with Terumi on his side and the chance of backstabbing.

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't proved in some places in the game that the fusion between both makes a Black Beast. Also Take-Mikazuchi is a Nox and, if I recall, the Causality Weapons are made of Ars Magus, unlike the Grimoire that uses seithr (Celica's supression proves that).

Nine probably wanted to help Hazama since both are separated and probably our witch sees something in Hazama that Terumi doesn't have. Maybe because, in my opinion, Hazama is a little more collected than Terumi and normally he thinks more than act. I may be wrong about that one.

[BlazGearRegalia]

Oh yeah, now that I remember from Act 3, we have Taokaka to hunt down Hazama, and I doubt he'll be able to push her aside like in CS. Even if she loses again, she isn't gonna be easy to knock down.

 

"For the meatbuns, and for good guy!" [Yes, I made that up.]

[Kenji Harima]

If we are speaking about Terumi traits (previous posts) I would also like to add that there is one feeling which makes him stronger -> hate.

I have been wondering since Continuum Shift what happens if somebody will give him some love???

It sounds irrationally but it's still a way to destroy him permanently apart of seal his soul in the Boundary (again) or Lynchpin. The only person who will able to do this it's probably Celica -> she is the most good-natured and enough mentally strong.

2 hours ago, 1337 H@x0r said:

Kusanagi was created specifically to destroy gods, it is a power which supposedly can cut through even Tsukuyomi and utterly destroy the master unit so I'd say Hazama would be very interested in gaining such power.

Technically it's still a Murakumo Unit so even if both of them are special I will stick to the idea that merge between Kusanagi and  "almost perfected" Azure Grimoire (Hazama) will make another Black Beast.

I doubt that even if they become a new creature it will obtain some "godlike" powers cause Mu-12 seems to lost her status as "Eye..." since her and Noel have been separated.

[BlazGearRegalia]

9 minutes ago, Kenji Harima said:

If we are speaking about Terumi traits (previous posts) I would also like to add that there is one feeling which makes him stronger -> hate.

I have been wondering since Continuum Shift what happens if somebody will give him some love???

It sounds irrationally but it's still a way to destroy him permanently apart of seal his soul in the Boundary (again) or Lynchpin. The only person who will able to do this it's probably Celica -> she is the most good-natured and enough mentally strong.

 

There's not much telling what love does to him, since it's never explored, but I bet love weakens or even kills him, and if that's the case and knowing Celica, she wouldn't hesitate to show him love. [Just spare the detail that it'll kill him and she'll hug away]

[Ogiga99]

I don't think an Azure Grimoire can fuse with the Kusanagi. You're forgetting that the Black Beast is the failed result of the attempt to smelt a Kusanagi. It works kind of like a Fusion failure in the Persona games. It's supposed to be Azure Grimoire + Murakumo Unit = Kusanagi but when it goes wrong the result is Azure Grimoire + Murakumo Unit = Black Beast. The reason Noel was able to smelted into the Kusanagi was because she could fill both roles on her own. She's a Murakumo Unit and being the Eye of the Azure means she already has access to the True Azure without a Grimoire. She wouldn't need to fuse with the Azure Grimoire because she's already got something better. Basically, I don't think True Azure + Murakumo + Azure Grimoire (lesser Azure power) would yield anything new or significant.

Also regarding, Ragna and Hazama's Grimoires, you're forgetting that Ragna's surpassed Hazara's in the CS True Ending. While Hazara's was initially superior to the prototype, which was why he could shut down Ragna's, absorbing the Idea Engine made Ragna's strong enough to overcome this and let him access the True Azure like Mu can.

This does however raise an interesting question. Assuming Ragna is a Murakumo Unit (heavily implied since he could turn into a Black Beast on his own in his CS Bad Ending) and assuming Ragna's Idea Engine Azure Grimoire is considered "complete" since it can access the True Azure, would it be possible for him to become a Kusanagi as well if he controlled the smelting process? Him turning into a Black Beast on his own is caused by him losing control of the Grimoire, resulting in a failure. If he is like Noel, fulfilling both conditions on his own, perhaps he could become another Kusanagi, which would presumably also stop the Azure Grimoire's corruption of him since he would no longer be able to turn into a Black Beast. Just a cool thought I had.

1 hour ago, JustaMaskedFreak said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't proved in some places in the game that the fusion between both makes a Black Beast. Also Take-Mikazuchi is a Nox and, if I recall, the Causality Weapons are made of Ars Magus, unlike the Grimoire that uses seithr (Celica's supression proves that).

Nine probably wanted to help Hazama since both are separated and probably our witch sees something in Hazama that Terumi doesn't have. Maybe because, in my opinion, Hazama is a little more collected than Terumi and normally he thinks more than act. I may be wrong about that one.

You are right about the fusion. Nu says it explicitly during her exposition dumb inside Take-Mikazuchi in CP's True Ending. You're getting confused about Ars Magus. Are Magus does use seithr, basically it's manipulating seithr with science to reproduce the effects of Magic. Grimoires are a form of Ars Magus. Causality Weapons are different from Ars Magus since they can be made in many ways. While the Nox Nyctores are treated as being like Ars Magus, they were created with Magic (Kokonoe using Infinite Gravity in That Which Is Inherited). There are also Artificial Causality Weapons that use pure science. However, the reason the Nox generally don't need seithr is because of their cores. Their cores are created by compressing seithr to the limit and smelting it with souls. Basically, at least this is how I understand it, the core is a solidified ball of seithr with a whole bunch of souls in it. The core provides the Nox with its own power source, so it doesn't need to use seithr from the surrounding area. However, Take-Mikazuchi is an exception to this rule. It can only fire once every four years because it's so powerful even its core can't supply enough seithr for it (although this may be because it only has half of its core). When Izanami brings it to earth in CP's True Ending she says it can continuously fire because the world is overflowing with enough seithr to power it and after that is stopped by Kusnhinada's Lynchpin, Izanami just powers it herself through unknown means.

Regarding Celica's seithr suppression, it's hard to say exactly what things are affected by it because she stays away from fights for most of CP. All we see is that she can shut down the Azure Grimoire and doesn't affect Nox (Jin could use Yukianesa fine when he curb-stomped Ragna inside the headquarters). Most of the people who fight around her in CP don't use seithr (Azrael, Bang, Carl, Litchi, Relius, Izanami etc.) so everything's a bit unclear. It's a moot point now anyway since there is no seithr in CF buts the Embryo lets the Entitled use Ars Magus regardless.

47 minutes ago, BlazGearRegalia said:

Oh yeah, now that I remember from Act 3, we have Taokaka to hunt down Hazama, and I doubt he'll be able to push her aside like in CS. Even if she loses again, she isn't gonna be easy to knock down.

 

"For the meatbuns, and for good guy!" [Yes, I made that up.]

Funnily enough, alongside Celica, Tao has become Hazara's hard counter since his cat allergies are now canon.

33 minutes ago, Kenji Harima said:

If we are speaking about Terumi traits (previous posts) I would also like to add that there is one feeling which makes him stronger -> hate.

I have been wondering since Continuum Shift what happens if somebody will give him some love???

It sounds irrationally but it's still a way to destroy him permanently apart of seal his soul (again) in the Boundary or Lynchpin. The only person who will able to do this it's probably Celica -> she is the most good-natured and enough mentally strong.

Celica already weakens him with her presence so she already basically has that covered (not sure why this happens when separated from Hazama since, as far as we know, he doesn't have his own Azure Grimoire and his spirit isn't made of seithr). I don't think even Celica could actually love him since even she realizes he is irredeemable.

However, we already have an answer to the question about this. While hate makes him stronger, the opposite of that isn't love, indifference is. He is powered by the emotions directed him but he becomes incredibly weak when his opponent doesn't feel anything towards him. In her CPEX Arcade Ending, Kokonoe is able to curb stomp Terumi by sealing away her emotions and making herself not care about him. Terumi is a huge narcissist and wants to be the center of attention, so, fittingly, ignoring him is his greatest weakness figuratively (he kicks Rachel in rage when she says Ragna is way more interesting than him in her CS Bad Ending) and literally (he needs hatred to maintain his existence in the world). I don't think loving him would do anything more than not caring about him does, and would probably be less effective overall (if you love someone it can easily lead to the strongest of hate, which Terumi would exploit).

Regardless, the only thing that is necessary at the moment is to deprive him of a vessel for a week. He can only keep up his Self-Observation for that long and needs a vessel to physically root him to the world. Without one he is already doomed. So they can just destroy his vessels and run out the clock or keep hitting him with attacks that can harm his soul and deprive him of hate power to the point where he can no longer maintain his Self-Observation.

[Luminos564]

6 minutes ago, Ogiga99 said:

This does however raise an interesting question. Assuming Ragna is a Murakumo Unit (heavily implied since he could turn into a Black Beast on his own in his CS Bad Ending) and assuming Ragna's Idea Engine Azure Grimoire is considered "complete" since it can access the True Azure, would it be possible for him to become a Kusanagi as well if he controlled the smelting process? Him turning into a Black Beast on his own is caused by him losing control of the Grimoire, resulting in a failure. If he is like Noel, fulfilling both conditions on his own, perhaps he could become another Kusanagi, which would presumably also stop the Azure Grimoire's corruption of him since he would no longer be able to turn into a Black Beast. Just a cool thought I had.

Fun as that sounds, I doubt Ragna is a Murakumo himself. The process of creating a Black Beast has always required an Azure wielder to act as the "body" and a Murakumo to act as the "heart". Or rather, it is the components necessary to try and make Kusanagi, with the Black Beast being a failed byproduct. However, it seems the process is not absolute and there's multiple ways one can turn into a Black Beast. Ragna himself owes that to his Azure arm which came from the corpse of his previous loop fusion with Nu-13. As someone else put it here, the arm is simply returning itself to it's full form by using Ragna as the base. Arakune is however a super-mini Black Beast and I am pretty sure Roy was never a Murakumo himself. But he can, based on Relius' comments, become a full-fledged one by consuming Nox Nyctores or more specifically, Murkaumos themselves.

I will grant you this, whatever Ragna is, it most certainly ain't all human...or at least, fully human. We've had constant hints winking that he's something very different but never been told exactly what. Hopefully CF does manage to explain it.

[Toxin45]

Yeah I think ragna was never a human at all and had a hidden power even before he got the azure. Besides Ragna being a male murakumo is too disturbing and ridiculous no offense.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Toxin45

[Kenji Harima]

Nice explanation like always. I have forgotten many facts from the game that's why I have starded adventure again from CT.

34 minutes ago, Ogiga99 said:

. Assuming Ragna is a Murakumo Unit (heavily implied since he could turn into a Black Beast on his own in his CS Bad Ending

I would like to add that he has a nice tattoo on his collarbone. Apart of game there is a short story "Innocent Black" where a Black Beast takes humanoid form -> in looks it similiar to Ragna.

Murakumo or not definitely not a "pure" human.

34 minutes ago, Ogiga99 said:

Regardless, the only thing that is necessary at the moment is to deprive him of a vessel for a week. He can only keep up his Self-Observation for that long and needs a vessel to physically root him to the world.

Both Hazama and Terumi endings (and some others hereos too) brought an idea that it's a possibility to get a vessel. It depends which Arcs more or less will be add to the main story. The game istelf doesn't have a long duration: it's still January 2200 (ok they are in the Embryo now so time might working differently) so one week it's enough time for his goals even if he won't able find/get a vessel.

34 minutes ago, Ogiga99 said:

However, we already have an answer to the question about this. While hate makes him stronger, the opposite of that isn't love, indifference is. He is powered by the emotions directed him but he becomes incredibly weak when his opponent doesn't feel anything towards him. In her CPEX Arcade Ending, Kokonoe is able to curb stomp Terumi by sealing away her emotions and making herself not care about him.

I know that Kokone has a trait to hide her emotions or at least they don't have impact her so much but as we have so many chars who hate Terumi and would like to kil him I am wondering about other options.

I think that Kokone herself might take bigger role in conflict with Nine than Terumi.

[Ogiga99]

11 minutes ago, Luminos564 said:

Fun as that sounds, I doubt Ragna is a Murakumo himself. The process of creating a Black Beast has always required an Azure wielder to act as the "body" and a Murakumo to act as the "heart". Or rather, it is the components necessary to try and make Kusanagi, with the Black Beast being a failed byproduct. However, it seems the process is not absolute and there's multiple ways one can turn into a Black Beast. Ragna himself owes that to his Azure arm which came from the corpse of his previous loop fusion with Nu-13. As someone else put it here, the arm is simply returning itself to it's full form by using Ragna as the base. Arakune is however a super-mini Black Beast and I am pretty sure Roy was never a Murakumo himself. But he can, based on Relius' comments, become a full-fledged one by consuming Nox Nyctores or more specifically, Murkaumos themselves.

I will grant you this, whatever Ragna is, it most certainly ain't all human...or at least, fully human. We've had constant hints winking that he's something very different but never been told exactly what. Hopefully CF does manage to explain it.

Ragna's arm isn't part Nu. After the Black Beast was defeated, Kazuma/Terumi stole its heart (Nu) and used it to create "something" so the Azure Grimoire is just the Black Beast's body. In order to return to its previous form, the Black Beast would still need a heart, which CS suggests Ragna can do on his own without Nu. In fact the fact that his arm was the Black Beast's makes this work rather well, his arm becomes the body while the rest of him can act as the heart. There are other ways to create a Black Beast (Arakune consuming Nox, smelting a Nox and letting it go berserk and absorb enough souls, Original Grimoire going berserk) but the only kind that involved the Azure Grimoire is the Murakumo fusion. Granted it's possible for their to be other kinds of artificial humans besides Prime Fields (Touya being a manifestation of the Original Grimoire, however Sechs was made and Hazama/Kazuma being vessels meant for Terumi, with Hazama's body being an Azure Grimoire) and if Relius, who has made multiple kinds, played a part in it we can't decisively say Murakumo, especially now that we know Saya was originally human but modified to be doll-like by Relius. However, that still leaves the issue of how CS Bad Ending Ragna could become a Black Beast if it doesn't have a heart.

 

10 minutes ago, Kenji Harima said:

Both Hazama and Terumi endings (and some others hereos too) brought an idea that it's a possibility to get a vessel. It depends which Arcs more or less will be add to the main story. The game istelf doesn't have a long duration: it's still January 2200 (ok they are in the Embryo now so time might working differently now) so one week it's enough time for his goals even if he won't able find/get a vessel.

I know that Kokone has a trait to hide her emotions or at least they don't have impact her so much but as we have so many chars who hate Terumi and would like to kil him I am wondering about other options.

January 2200 is only from being in the Embryo because time "reset" to Ragna arriving in Kagutsuchi. CP took place in I believe February (might be March, can't remember exactly). In general CP was a lot longer of a game in terms of duration, both CT and CS were one day each but CP was several (off the top of my head I remember at least four different days not counting people traveling to Ikaruga). Time seems pretty weird in CF and it's possible the plot will be less of a "waiting game" since everyone is at each other's throats instead of it being Team Kagura vs. Team Izanami but I would hazard a guess that each Act is one day. As of Act 3 Terumi does have a vessel though so who knows how that affects everything.

While Kokonoe physically rewired her brain to not care about Terumi, we've also seen that several characters (Ragna, Noel and Hakumen) have figured out Terumi's game and are no longer falling for his trolling. This lets them fight him without giving into rage, which at the very least weakens him even if not to the same level as Kokonoe. Even then, the hate probably isn't enough to stop Time Killer once his Self-Observation runs out.

[1337 H@x0r]

Well...

1 hour ago, Ogiga99 said:

Ragna's arm isn't part Nu. After the Black Beast was defeated, Kazuma/Terumi stole its heart (Nu) and used it to create "something" so the Azure Grimoire is just the Black Beast's body. In order to return to its previous form, the Black Beast would still need a heart, which CS suggests Ragna can do on his own without Nu. In fact the fact that his arm was the Black Beast's makes this work rather well, his arm becomes the body while the rest of him can act as the heart. There are other ways to create a Black Beast (Arakune consuming Nox, smelting a Nox and letting it go berserk and absorb enough souls, Original Grimoire going berserk) but the only kind that involved the Azure Grimoire is the Murakumo fusion. Granted it's possible for their to be other kinds of artificial humans besides Prime Fields (Touya being a manifestation of the Original Grimoire, however Sechs was made and Hazama/Kazuma being vessels meant for Terumi, with Hazama's body being an Azure Grimoire) and if Relius, who has made multiple kinds, played a part in it we can't decisively say Murakumo, especially now that we know Saya was originally human but modified to be doll-like by Relius. However, that still leaves the issue of how CS Bad Ending Ragna could become a Black Beast if it doesn't have a heart.

 

January 2200 is only from being in the Embryo because time "reset" to Ragna arriving in Kagutsuchi. CP took place in I believe February (might be March, can't remember exactly). In general CP was a lot longer of a game in terms of duration, both CT and CS were one day each but CP was several (off the top of my head I remember at least four different days not counting people traveling to Ikaruga). Time seems pretty weird in CF and it's possible the plot will be less of a "waiting game" since everyone is at each other's throats instead of it being Team Kagura vs. Team Izanami but I would hazard a guess that each Act is one day. As of Act 3 Terumi does have a vessel though so who knows how that affects everything.

While Kokonoe physically rewired her brain to not care about Terumi, we've also seen that several characters (Ragna, Noel and Hakumen) have figured out Terumi's game and are no longer falling for his trolling. This lets them fight him without giving into rage, which at the very least weakens him even if not to the same level as Kokonoe. Even then, the hate probably isn't enough to stop Time Killer once his Self-Observation runs out.

I'd like to point out that Ragna did not become a full Black Beast in his CS Bad Ending, he became a semi-Black Beast like Arakune but on a whole different level thanks to his Azure Grimoire.

Remember that the real Black Beast exists in the deeps of the boundary and that the one we see characters turn into is actually a manifestation of the damn thing, it's similar to how Hakumen manifests his body at different levels depending of the power used to summon him.

When Touya turns into the Black Beast, it's so weak that a single strong fighter like Es or Sechs can kill it, however, when Nu and Ragna fuse into one it's so powerful that all the world armed with Ars Magus is necessary to defeat it.

What Ragna turns into in his CS Bad Ending is something in between. It still wipes out a significant portion of the world but it takes only a weakened Hakumen, a crippled Jubei and Noel instead of the fully powered Six Heroes to bring an end to it's rampage.

In regards to Ragna being a male PFD, I don't think it's the case. PFDs or Murakumo Units were designed to survive interaction with the boundary yet Ragna had to be shielded by Tsukuyomi when crossing it towards the past.

Him being an artificial human is high likely though, given that Saya was modified to be Izanami's vessel and that Jin was modified to be SEIGI's vessel, I wouldn't be surprised if Relius mixed up their genes (squick) to create an artificial human meant to be Terumi's vessel.

Considering that Ragna's original hatred for him was strong enough to keep the bastard alive without a body, it's plausible that he, ironically, had been conceived with such purpose in mind.

[Luminos564]

1 hour ago, Ogiga99 said:

Ragna's arm isn't part Nu.

I never said it was . I only meant that his Azure arm is from a corpse that "was once fused with Nu-13 in a previous loop". If remnants of Nu-13 remained within the arm we'd have probably seen it brought up by now.

1 hour ago, Ogiga99 said:

After the Black Beast was defeated, Kazuma/Terumi stole its heart (Nu) and used it to create "something" so the Azure Grimoire is just the Black Beast's body. In order to return to its previous form, the Black Beast would still need a heart, which CS suggests Ragna can do on his own without Nu. In fact the fact that his arm was the Black Beast's makes this work rather well, his arm becomes the body while the rest of him can act as the heart. There are other ways to create a Black Beast (Arakune consuming Nox, smelting a Nox and letting it go berserk and absorb enough souls, Original Grimoire going berserk) but the only kind that involved the Azure Grimoire is the Murakumo fusion. Granted it's possible for their to be other kinds of artificial humans besides Prime Fields (Touya being a manifestation of the Original Grimoire, however Sechs was made and Hazama/Kazuma being vessels meant for Terumi, with Hazama's body being an Azure Grimoire) and if Relius, who has made multiple kinds, played a part in it we can't decisively say Murakumo, especially now that we know Saya was originally human but modified to be doll-like by Relius. However, that still leaves the issue of how CS Bad Ending Ragna could become a Black Beast if it doesn't have a heart.

Honestly, I think that "something" which was made from the stolen remains of Nu-13 at the time is probably key to most of these questions. Or it could be a whole new Plot McGuffin that overcomplicates the whole process to another level. Whatever the case, a Black Beast is seen in Es' stage and I'd bet bottom dollar that it'll be important come console release, if only because it would need to explain most of the mysteries surrounding the Black Beast, Ragna, the Murakumos and the rest.

[BlazGearRegalia]

So the remaining question surrounding our Grim Reaper is: Just what is Ragna the Bloodedge?

 

Right now, my current guess is that he's almost a whole different being from everyone to exist, albiet, it is definite that he isn't, if not even part, human, and what species he belongs to remains to be the biggest mystery surrounding him.

 

[My original thought was him being an entity that acts as some sort of extent of the Azure, but then again, that would be just ridiculous, right? Another guess I have is that he may be similar to Clavis, being something that is not meant to exist, but I'm probably gonna have to drop that one as well]

[Vanagandr]

1 hour ago, BlazGearRegalia said:

Just what is Ragna the Bloodedge?

You mean what ELSE is Ragna the Bloodedge? He's already a lot of something, his right arm and eye assimilating the Azure already make him part Ars Magus, his right arm is mechanical, he could even be part Vampire due to Rachel biting him. I'm surprise he's still considered human at this point, it's like the theseus ship paradox, how much can you replace until it's not what it is anymore?

[KanaNoir]

His mechanical arm doesn't make him much, aside of a crippled. He was bitten by Rachel in only one timeline (cf. short story Endless Waltz) so the Ragna we know and love (or not) isn't part vampire.

 

And it's the first time I hear that possessing the azure grimoire made him part ars magus, where did you get that from haha ?

Edited April 28, 2016 by KanaNoir

[BlazGearRegalia]

Ragna was never, let me repeat: NEVER, implied to be human to begin with. The Azure Grimoire that sits in his right arm is the decapitated Black Beast [thanks to Hakumen for the decapitation], the left arm is mechanical [remember in CS that he sacrificed his original left arm to save Noel/Mu], and as mentioned was only bitten in one timeline and that was a different timeline from the one we're on. It's not a matter of what he's become to this point, it's a matter of what was he to begin with.

[NoelChan101]

What if the OPFD was called Saya???

I mean Izanami got pretty upset when Noato called her Saya.

Just a thought really.

 

[Toxin45]

We kinda got that theory shot down. Because apparently saya was a nautral born human turned into a doll by relius for Izanami 

[Luminos564]

1 hour ago, BlazGearRegalia said:

Ragna was never, let me repeat: NEVER, implied to be human to begin with. The Azure Grimoire that sits in his right arm is the decapitated Black Beast [thanks to Hakumen for the decapitation], the left arm is mechanical [remember in CS that he sacrificed his original left arm to save Noel/Mu], and as mentioned was only bitten in one timeline and that was a different timeline from the one we're on. It's not a matter of what he's become to this point, it's a matter of what was he to begin with.

Added to the last bit, why have we never asked ourselves: who are his mommy and daddy? And if he was not born naturally to human parents, then who/what created him? It's a bit weird that we're this far into the game and this sort of thing was not ever brought up before. Especially considering how drenched in anime tropes Blazblue actually is. We know he refers to himself as Jin (biological) brother when Tsubaki pops the question, but how certain of this can he and in turn, the audience, be? Memories are rather easily manipulated in this series so while he may believe that to be the case, the truth might not be so.

So what can we describe him? We know he has a human shape and skeleton. He certainly needs to eat, drink, breathe and he definitely doesn't take well to being stabbed, slashed and pummeled with large metal objects. But then again so did XBlaze's Touya (CE) and he was never human to begin with. Just the Original Grimoire given shape from the wish of a distraught young lady. Rachel's plea to promise her that he would always fight on "as a human" is also somewhat odd. Normally you could take it to mean that she doesn't want him to lose his humanity (no doubt by turning into a Black Beast) but at the same time, you could make claim that she wants him to remain as he is now, as opposed to "what he might have been before".

P.S: Also, this is kinda off-tangent but in the timeline where Rachel bit him, what were half-vampire Ragna's powers? I assume this is the Wheel of Fortune drama story but I don't really know much about it.

[BlazGearRegalia]

12 minutes ago, Luminos564 said:

Added to the last bit, why have we never asked ourselves: who are his mommy and daddy? And if he was not born naturally to human parents, then who/what created him? It's a bit weird that we're this far into the game and this sort of thing was not ever brought up before. Especially considering how drenched in anime tropes Blazblue actually is. We know he refers to himself as Jin (biological) brother when Tsubaki pops the question, but how certain of this can he and in turn, the audience, be? Memories are rather easily manipulated in this series so while he may believe that to be the case, the truth might not be so.

So what can we describe him? We know he has a human shape and skeleton. He certainly needs to eat, drink, breathe and he definitely doesn't take well to being stabbed, slashed and pummeled with large metal objects. But then again so did XBlaze's Touya (CE) and he was never human to begin with. Just the Original Grimoire given shape from the wish of a distraught young lady. Rachel's plea to promise her that he would always fight on "as a human" is also somewhat odd. Normally you could take it to mean that she doesn't want him to lose his humanity (no doubt by turning into a Black Beast) but at the same time, you could make claim that she wants him to remain as he is now, as opposed to "what he might have been before".

BEHOLD, ANOTHER MYSTERY OF OUR BELOVED RAGNA!

 

In all seriousness, I think we were all so caught up trying to figure out what was going on in each game that the question never occurred to us throughout the time of this series. And now it raises a few questions from me:

 

The obvious, "Who is Ragna's creator/Who are Ragna's mommy and daddy?", "What happened to them?", and a rather personal one from my view "If they are still alive, WHY HAVEN'T THEY COME LOOKING FOR HIM AFTER ALL THIS TIME!?"

 

One would think they would come looking for him if [repeat: IF] they were still alive.