Central Fiction Arcade Plot Discussion (spoilers)

[Yoshirocks92]

23 minutes ago, BlazGearRegalia said:

You know, I actually wonder what Izanami is gonna do in Story Mode. Will she try to go after Ragna? I don't know about anyone else, but for the guy who has been hunted down by nearly the entire cast, he seems to be having it easier than before. [But seeing that Story Mode illustration of Nine standing on his head, I have a feeling he's gonna have more hell than before]

Well I can probably tell that Izanami would most likely go after Noel considering that the latter is the Master Unit or that the latter meets the former herself and she tells Noel the truth about her existence. 

[Skull567890]

35 minutes ago, BlazGearRegalia said:

Nine has a new body?

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She looks the same to me, minus the black sclera and sharp fingertips. [How does that not hurt to have your lovely legs poked at by your sharp fingers?]

 

Speaking of our sexy [and crazy] witch, what the heck is that monstrosity she can summon!?

 

Might I recommend a nice warm cup of Izanami?

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Why must you be so creepy, Izzy~?

 

[This was from the Act 3 Preview]

 

You know, I actually wonder what Izanami is gonna do in Story Mode. Will she try to go after Ragna? I don't know about anyone else, but for the guy who has been hunted down by nearly the entire cast, he seems to be having it easier than before. [But seeing that Story Mode illustration of Nine standing on his head, I have a feeling he's gonna have more hell than before]

I thought it was mentioned that Relius cooked up a new container in Nine's likeness for her, and that Izanami was aiding in sustaining her? After all she fell into the Boundary, which not only drives those insane depending on the circumstances, but it also shreds your body apart. Probably why Trinity decided to go ghost, meanwhile Nine went nuts and became devoid of all logical reason after getting fished out. And it never was explained what in the world Nine brought back with her yet, and I don't think the playable cast has noticed it either.

[BlazGearRegalia]

And so I theorize...

 

 

Whatever it is, it was sitting in the Boundary for a good reason. Either it existed a long time ago and got sent to the Boundary for what I can imagine being something that caused destruction in it's wake, or she pulled it from some other dimension. [Ridiculous as that sounds]

 

It also shreds the body apart? Oh okay, that makes sense.

Oh yeah, remember logical reasoning, that thing that made you consider what you were doing would either lead to good or dire consequences? Oh yeah, so Nine did lose that, and she doesn't listen to the little sister that she "loves" so much, and she wants to skin her daughter alive. And I'm still trying to piece together what happened between her and Jubei, granted the old cat survived. Hey, Might I add Litchi and Carl [even though he never stepped foot in the Boundary, but is still crazy hell bent trying to restore his "sister" and will kill anyone to do it, which I will laugh if it turns out Ada's soul isn't in Nirvana] to the list of those who lost logical reasoning?

[Toxin45]

So basically relius wants to use lambda as the new God,arakune as the new black beast,and ignis as the new master unit.Wait what does relius mean that lambda as the new God?

[Volt]

5 hours ago, 1337 H@x0r said:

Well...

Saya doesn't need an exorcism so much as she needs a new body like the one Nine got.

Maybe this where Mu comes to play, she will kill Izanami but rather than fusing back with Noel she will fuse with Saya to restore her body.

Since Mu is a clone of Saya there shouldn't be any compatibility issues.

PS: Still haunted by toughts of puppet Makoto.

I don't think Izanami can be killed in the standard sense of the word. It's more likely she'll get sealed in something that can't really do much like a random non-sentient thing.

Even if Saya is destroyed, Izanami won't drop dead all of a sudden. Don't forget Terumi exists, and he got out of like 3 different vessels, chilled for a while in the boundary and survived an attack that killed his lifetime. Imagine what it would take to kill death itself and the Drive of the Master Unit. 

[1337 H@x0r]

Well...

11 minutes ago, Volt said:

I don't think Izanami can be killed in the standard sense of the word. It's more likely she'll get sealed in something that can't really do much like a random non-sentient thing.

Even if Saya is destroyed, Izanami won't drop dead all of a sudden. Don't forget Terumi exists, and he got out of like 3 different vessels, chilled for a while in the boundary and survived an attack that killed his lifetime. Imagine what it would take to kill death itself and the Drive of the Master Unit. 

Bruh, are you forgetting that Mu-12 is the freaking Godslayer?

I mean, if there is one thing which could kill a being which emulates a goddess of death is something made to kill gods in the first place.

Maybe zombie Izanami is actually the result of being hit by Mu's power and breaking down before Noel absorbs her.

Since Izanami is Noel's drive, it would make sense for her to return to a natural mindless state were the former just suppresses her urge to kill.

[Ogiga99]

25 minutes ago, 1337 H@x0r said:

Well...

Bruh, are you forgetting that Mu-12 is the freaking Godslayer?

I mean, if there is one thing which could kill a being which emulates a goddess of death is something made to kill gods in the first place.

Maybe zombie Izanami is actually the result of being hit by Mu's power and breaking down before Noel absorbs her.

Since Izanami is Noel's drive, it would make sense for her to return to a natural mindless state were the former just suppresses her urge to kill.

That's just the problem. The Godslayer kills gods. Izanami can't be killed because she is already death itself. If there is some other way to destroy her, it wouldn't be with anything related to the concept of death (Godslayer, Time Killer, Immortal Breaker).

Izanami is not Noel's Drive, she is the OPFD's Drive. Noel currently has the soul of the OPFD inside her but she is not the same person as the girl in the Master Unit. Izanami existed before Noel was even made.

[1337 H@x0r]

Well...

12 minutes ago, Ogiga99 said:

That's just the problem. The Godslayer kills gods. Izanami can't be killed because she is already death itself. If there is some other way to destroy her, it wouldn't be with anything related to the concept of death (Godslayer, Time Killer, Immortal Breaker).

Izanami is not Noel's Drive, she is the OPFD's Drive. Noel currently has the soul of the OPFD inside her but she is not the same person as the girl in the Master Unit. Izanami existed before Noel was even made.

By Noel I already mean the OPFD and being on a different body doesn't mean much in this series since Nine and Terumi both displayed full power despite being inside homunculus made by Relius.

Rachel said that the only thing which can kill Izanami is life itself and getting returned into just the drive of a living being fits the criteria to me.

[Volt]

9 hours ago, 1337 H@x0r said:

Well...

By Noel I already mean the OPFD and being on a different body doesn't mean much in this series since Nine and Terumi both displayed full power despite being inside homunculus made by Relius.

Rachel said that the only thing which can kill Izanami is life itself and getting returned into just the drive of a living being fits the criteria to me.

You do realize Rachel was trolling Izanami when she said that, right?

So far, all we know about Izanami's defeat conditions is that killing her isn't possible.

[JustaMaskedFreak]

So, how we will defeat Death itself? Since she can't be killed...

Hmm... With Izanami being Amaterasu's Drive... Maybe only Amaterasu can do something about it, right?

[BlazGearRegalia]

14 minutes ago, JustaMaskedFreak said:

So, how we will defeat Death itself? Since she can't be killed...

Hmm... With Izanami being Amaterasu's Drive... Maybe only Amaterasu can do something about it, right?

 

If you can kill the Master Unit, you can kill Death herself!

 

The only problem is: You kill the Master Unit, you're also bringing the end of everything in the world, and there's no telling if it's all just an illusion or if it actually brings the end of everything.

 

EDIT: Oh wait, you mean what Amaterasu can do? That could be the case, the problem: Getting her to talk, since her soul is cowering in Noel.

[JustaMaskedFreak]

Just now, BlazGearRegalia said:

If you can kill the Master Unit, you can kill Death herself!

The only problem is: You kill the Master Unit, you're also bringing the end of everything in the world, and there's no telling if it's all just an illusion or if it actually brings the end of everything.

True, but then, how can we defeat her, Ragna stabbed her during his act 2 and, even knowing that was Noel's doing that reset (I guess), the Master Unit can reset it, right?

But... What about Izayoi? We may not know that much about it. But with we know, can it make something to stop Izanami?

[Volt]

1 minute ago, BlazGearRegalia said:

 

If you can kill the Master Unit, you can kill Death herself!

 

The only problem is: You kill the Master Unit, you're also bringing the end of everything in the world, and there's no telling if it's all just an illusion or if it actually brings the end of everything.

Well, considering what happened to the other possibilities just because the Master Unit got a bit busy with a single one, what would stop everything from turning into things like Es' Stage or simply going poof?

And regarding the whole "How to deal with Izanami" stuff, I still stand by my theory of kicking it out of Sayaaaaaaaaaaaaa (Insert OD Noise) and sealing it in a can or something.

[BlazGearRegalia]

9 minutes ago, JustaMaskedFreak said:

True, but then, how can we defeat her, Ragna stabbed her during his act 2 and, even knowing that was Noel's doing that reset (I guess), the Master Unit can reset it, right?

But... What about Izayoi? We may not know that much about it. But with we know, can it make something to stop Izanami?

 

I think Jin would sooner go back to being a nii-saaaaaaaaaaaaaaan psycho then let anyone use Tsubaki for such a task. [Then again, with him becoming more and more like HAWKOOMAYUN, he just might pull a hypocritical move on us]

 

But to answer about Izayoi, I'm not sure if she's capable of killing Izzy, but it's a thought worth noting!

 

12 minutes ago, Volt said:

Well, considering what happened to the other possibilities just because the Master Unit got a bit busy with a single one, what would stop everything from turning into things like Es' Stage or simply going poof?

And regarding the whole "How to deal with Izanami" stuff, I still stand by my theory of kicking it out of Sayaaaaaaaaaaaaa (Insert OD Noise) and sealing it in a can or something.

 

My thoughts exactly.

 

And then someday, some idiot pops that seal like a soda can and Izzy resumes her duty as world ender. Jokes aside, that's a probable solution! Though as someone mentioned, Saya wouldn't be able to last long since her body is more doll like and without a solid structure, but then again, we could probably get her soul out and put it in a different body. Preferably a new one. [You need to stop taking those bloodedge shrooms, Ragna's really rubbing off on you]

[Kenji Harima]

15 hours ago, BlazGearRegalia said:

Why must you be so creepy, Izzy~?

In my very first thought I was sure that this is her looks in the ghost form: you know similiar to this Terumi as funny black-green snot. Nowadays I am afraid this is the real „customization” made by Relius: no bones, no eyes, no real hair, nothing.

Btw. Double post my dear friend.

 

12 hours ago, Volt said:

I don't think Izanami can be killed in the standard sense of the word. It's more likely she'll get sealed in something that can't really do much like a random non-sentient thing.

Even if Saya is destroyed, Izanami won't drop dead all of a sudden. Don't forget Terumi exists, and he got out of like 3 different vessels, chilled for a while in the boundary and survived an attack that killed his lifetime. Imagine what it would take to kill death itself and the Drive of the Master Unit. 

Of course a way to destroy Terumi was complicated and had several factors but if our heroes might want to extract Izanami from Saya in similiar method like they did in Terumi/Hazama issue they have an one advantage which make this thing a little easier:

Saya's conciousness it's almost totally dominated by Inazami → this trait makes that Izanami is always in the „foreground”. She only feels Saya's attachment toward Ragna, Saya's dislike to Terumi, she can manipulate voice and facial expression to look like Saya and finally she had strange („paralyzed”) reactions when she was fighting with Naoto but to at this moment Hades haven't shown (yet) any sign that they can switch.

The last hero who I mentioned might become another factor in a long process defeating of Izanami thanks to this specific relation. Unfortunately actually nobody probably concern about Saya except Ragna and maybe Celica. Noel will show some empathy if he finally tells his story.

Whatever. After all why did Saya give Jin the Yukianaesa? Did she want to has a better relationship with second brother?

 

12 hours ago, Ogiga99 said:

Izanami is not Noel's Drive, she is the OPFD's Drive. Noel currently has the soul of the OPFD inside her but she is not the same person as the girl in the Master Unit. Izanami existed before Noel was even made.

 

Do you really can be sure that she is not the same person or rather I would say she hasn't got the same personality as The Girl?

I used to think that „soul” not only gives a life but also determines a personality especially it has a previous owner and was brought again to the world thanks to experimentation.

I agree that original owner of this soul (The Girl) died in the past (I assume that Izanami speaks truth about their lifetime and she was living in the BB world too. I have excluded in her case the conditions in the Boundary and fact that Azure is gathering souls from various timelines, worlds etc.) and it should be in the Azure but I am afraid that Noel would become a mindless empty body without it + the all idea of „Successor of the Azure” can be thrown to bucket thanks to revelations in the CF:

Noel didn't become a „Successor...” because the Azure had deciced it but somehow „The Girl” soul travelled to the BB world. However she was able acknowledged Nu-13 as „Successor...” too.

It also depends how long she possess OPFD's soul: proably from the beginning or better to say after Take-Mikezuchi nuked Ikaruga → at this time Noel Vermillion was born and start to sharing a body with Mu-12. I think we can assume that „The Girl” in term of personality was the same as Noel now.

I am curious if Noel get access to memories of this soul which she has cause as we know soul contains them (it must cause OPFD didn't give shape to the world thanks to own memories because she was a robotic girl, a device, an android. It was able to do it cause it gained soul of „This Girl”). In the game there was one good example when a soul „activated” in someone body and brought own memories: when Nu controlled Lambda at the end of CS.

Hazama can live without the soul cause he is the Azure Grimoire itself, Clavis was Azure-related being and Murakumo seems to gain own soul or better awareness in the smelting process (or finally Relius has this ability to manipulating souls thanks to a lot of data which OPFD gave).

I would also like that in the Act 3 ending Ragna he was speaking that this girl (woman) seems to know him and if he hasn't at mind Noel that might means that Ragna's soul it's from the past (the same as "The Girl") or she choose him as the Hero from the Book. Of course there are my speculations and in the reality it was just Ragna's loose thought stated from vision at Act 2's ending and nothing more.

Damn. I haven't written yet half of my thoughts cause I confused myself when I was writing all this. Lol I will end at this point. If I have forgotten/done mistake or changed a fact please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[BlazGearRegalia]

40 minutes ago, Kenji Harima said:

In my very first thought I was sure that this is her looks in the ghost form: you know similiar to this Terumi as funny black-green snot. Nowadays I am afraid this is the real „customization” made by Relius: no bones, no eyes, no real hair, nothing.

Dare I ask how is such a customization possible with Saya's soul still alive and probably scared to living hell, but then again, this is RELIUS "EVERYTHING IS AN EXPERIMENT I MUST TEST" CLOVER, so for now, I'm just gonna take your word for it.

 

45 minutes ago, Kenji Harima said:

After all why did Saya give Jin the Yukianaesa? Did she want to has a better relationship with second brother?

I am DYING to have that question answered. And how does giving your asshole of a brother a dangerous weapon resolve his mysterious hatred towards you. If Saya wanted to have a better relationship with Jin, wouldn't it have been easier to simply talk to him or cry for mama Celica to help sort out the situation?

 

But, I do have a theory on this: Perhaps Saya found or was given Yukianesa and told to give it to Jin.

I originally thought that maybe she sensed the danger ahead and just couldn't find the strength to warn Jin, but then I scrapped that, since it would be ridiculous, unless she had some sort of future vision which she doesn't.

[Kenji Harima]

34 minutes ago, BlazGearRegalia said:

Dare I ask how is such a customization possible with Saya's soul still alive and probably scared to living hell,

I was writing about her body not the soul but yes, these experimentations could be really painful.

35 minutes ago, BlazGearRegalia said:

But, I do have a theory on this: Perhaps Saya found or was given Yukianesa and told to give it to Jin.

Maybe. However one of this forum's user (VermilionBird) has written on his blog (which it's a reliable source of informations by the way) that Terumi brought Yukianesa near the church in goal to weak a barrier made by Celica.

[Fenris]

About Izanami's skeletal appearance during certain scenes or whatever: I don't think there is much to it aside from it's just a thematic representation of her design, abilities, and personality. Most depictions of Izanami tend to involve skeletons, ghosts, and things of that nature. I cannot think of a single time--in anime or video games--when this hasn't been the case. I doubt Relius' modifications went as far as turning Saya's body into...that, though. It'd definitely be a weird 'style/design' choice on Relius' behalf if that's indeed the case, but you never know.

On that note, I think "defeating" Izanami is simply a matter of putting a stop to whatever "the girl" is doing. There might be a way to do this without having to kill her. Nah, scratch that, Mori WILL come up with a scenario where she isn't killed. After all, death is a joke and new bodies can be purchased for discount prices at the local BlueMart in this game. Anyway, yeah, it's probably all a matter of somehow having "the girl" hit the off switch on her drive (Izanami).

(Also, to the guy that keeps bringing up the double-post thing, it's likely a part of a site-related issue that's been happening for a while now. It likely isn't the poster's fault. Happened to me a few times on here as well, and having been a mod on other forums before, I know better than to double-post intentionally. Just speaking from experience.)

[Toxin45]

Although since central fiction reveals that the possibilities aka alternative universe were destroyed I guess that would explain why Es and Naoto appear in CF. 

[Ogiga99]

4 hours ago, Kenji Harima said:

Do you really can be sure that she is not the same person or rather I would say she hasn't got the same personality as The Girl?

I used to think that „soul” not only gives a life but also determines a personality especially it has a previous owner and was brought again to the world thanks to experimentation.

I agree that original owner of this soul (The Girl) died in the past (I assume that Izanami speaks truth about their lifetime and she was living in the BB world too. I have excluded in her case the conditions in the Boundary and fact that Azure is gathering souls from various timelines, worlds etc.) and it should be in the Azure but I am afraid that Noel would become a mindless empty body without it + the all idea of „Successor of the Azure” can be thrown to bucket thanks to revelations in the CF:

Noel didn't become a „Successor...” because the Azure had deciced it but somehow „The Girl” soul travelled to the BB world. However she was able acknowledged Nu-13 as „Successor...” too.

It also depends how long she possess OPFD's soul: proably from the beginning or better to say after Take-Mikezuchi nuked Ikaruga → at this time Noel Vermillion was born and start to sharing a body with Mu-12. I think we can assume that „The Girl” in term of personality was the same as Noel now.

I am curious if Noel get access to memories of this soul which she has cause as we know soul contains them (it must cause OPFD didn't give shape to the world thanks to own memories because she was a robotic girl, a device, an android. It was able to do it cause it gained soul of „This Girl”). In the game there was one good example when a soul „activated” in someone body and brought own memories: when Nu controlled Lambda at the end of CS.

Hazama can live without the soul cause he is the Azure Grimoire itself, Clavis was Azure-related being and Murakumo seems to gain own soul or better awareness in the smelting process (or finally Relius has this ability to manipulating souls thanks to a lot of data which OPFD gave).

I would also like that in the Act 3 ending Ragna he was speaking that this girl (woman) seems to know him and if he hasn't at mind Noel that might means that Ragna's soul it's from the past (the same as "The Girl") or she choose him as the Hero from the Book. Of course there are my speculations and in the reality it was just Ragna's loose thought stated from vision at Act 2's ending and nothing more.

Damn. I haven't written yet half of my thoughts cause I confused myself when I was writing all this. Lol I will end at this point. If I have forgotten/done mistake or changed a fact please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

No, the OPFD's soul cannot have been in her since Ibukido. The Master Unit is currently empty and Rachel explicitly says the world will disappear if it returns to the Boundary in this state. Logically, this means that before Amaterasu appeared in the end of CP, it was occupied by the OPFD's soul (otherwise the world wouldn't exist in the first place). The very fact that it is now empty confirms that the soul cannot be in two places at once meaning it could not be in Noel when it was in the Master Unit. Having the soul from the beginning would open up a dozen issues like how Amaterasu could use Phenomenon Intervention at the time, how could the OPFD's soul survive in the timelines where Noel doesn't exist (and how could those timelines continue to 2199 without a reset) and why didn't always have the Eye of the Azure, which the OPFD already possessed? Noel only became the Successor of the Azure AFTER the time loop was broken, meaning the Master Unit chose her long after she had her own soul.

Not sure what you mean with Hazama and Clavis. They still have souls. Hazama's artificial body was made with one but it has nothing to do with the Azure Grimoire (Kazuma also had a soul and his body wasn't a Grimoire) and Clavis is a materialization of Azure, which is pretty much made of souls.

[Fenris]

3 hours ago, BlazGearRegalia said:

[...] And how does giving your asshole of a brother a dangerous weapon resolve his mysterious hatred towards you. If Saya wanted to have a better relationship with Jin, wouldn't it have been easier to simply talk to him or cry for mama Celica to help sort out the situation?

 

But, I do have a theory on this: Perhaps Saya found or was given Yukianesa and told to give it to Jin.

I originally thought that maybe she sensed the danger ahead and just couldn't find the strength to warn Jin, but then I scrapped that, since it would be ridiculous, unless she had some sort of future vision which she doesn't.

You know, now that you guys mention it, this is something that has bothered me ever since I read into the Phase Shift stories. From that point on, I had always wished that Jin were given the Yukianesa after having been adopted into the Kisaragi household instead. It would've made much more sense considering the weapon was said to be in Seven's possession. (For reference, Seven was the head of the Kisaragi household [at some point during that time].) It is likely, however, that Seven, the origins of the Kisaragi household, and other stuff from the Phase Shift novels were neither thought up yet, nor can my wish in the second sentence be 'retconned into' that part, since Jin receiving the blade from Saya seems like way to big a plot point to go back and change now. The whole idea of it is pretty awkward plotwise, in my opinion.

[MaximusMurkimus]

22 hours ago, 1337 H@x0r said:

Well...

Saya doesn't need an exorcism so much as she needs a new body like the one Nine got.

Maybe this where Mu comes to play, she will kill Izanami but rather than fusing back with Noel she will fuse with Saya to restore her body.

Since Mu is a clone of Saya there shouldn't be any compatibility issues.

PS: Still haunted by toughts of puppet Makoto.

I always felt Lambda was still hanging around because she would literally be the perfect body for Saya to use if she had to get rid of Izanami that way.

[NoelChan101]

17 hours ago, Kenji Harima said:

 

However I am afraid that even if Saya back she won't stay alive too long -> it seems that something happens to her body cause Relius was controlling it on his Arc 2 ending. She seems to be also more like a doll now, a real one without any solid body structure (but it's a guess based on her behave in-game nor the story).

 

How did on earth could he do that I know its Relius but wow.

I doubt she would be able to even stand

 

Relius belongs in a horror movies I swear, but why make her "Doll Like"

The OPFD was considered a doll but I am sure she was not literally like a doll 

So why. Compatability????

That's creepy

[Toxin45]

25 minutes ago, Ogiga99 said:

No, the OPFD's soul cannot have been in her since Ibukido. The Master Unit is currently empty and Rachel explicitly says the world will disappear if it returns to the Boundary in this state. Logically, this means that before Amaterasu appeared in the end of CP, it was occupied by the OPFD's soul (otherwise the world wouldn't exist in the first place). The very fact that it is now empty confirms that the soul cannot be in two places at once meaning it could not be in Noel when it was in the Master Unit. Having the soul from the beginning would open up a dozen issues like how Amaterasu could use Phenomenon Intervention at the time, how could the OPFD's soul survive in the timelines where Noel doesn't exist (and how could those timelines continue to 2199 without a reset) and why didn't always have the Eye of the Azure, which the OPFD already possessed? Noel only became the Successor of the Azure AFTER the time loop was broken, meaning the Master Unit chose her long after she had her own soul.

Not sure what you mean with Hazama and Clavis. They still have souls. Hazama's artificial body was made with one but it has nothing to do with the Azure Grimoire (Kazuma also had a soul and his body wasn't a Grimoire) and Clavis is a materialization of Azure, which is pretty much made of souls.

I think he meant that Noel and Mu were not the same entity. He meant that Mu is her vessel similar to how hazama is to Terumi. Also How can Noel house the Soul of girl inside Ammy if she and Mu spilt?

[Fenris]

5 minutes ago, NoelChan101 said:

How did on earth could he do that I know its Relius but wow.

I doubt she would be able to even stand

 

Relius belongs in a horror movies I swear, but why make her "Doll Like"

The OPFD was considered a doll but I am sure she was not literally like a doll 

So why. Compatability????

That's creepy

I wager it's a compatibility thing, yeah. Saya was stated to have high seithr aptitudes, so perhaps Relius added tuners onto her body to help with that (?). While Saya might have had godlike levels of seithr control--amplification or whatever--it may have been a case in which her body was simply too fragile to support all of it, let alone a 'death goddess' whose powers are said to be immense in their own right. For all we know, Saya could've had a terminal illness that weakened her with too much seithr usage. She was said to be a sickly youth. Relius might've strengthened her body to allow her to use her powerful seithr amplification ability without it having a detrimental effect on her body. The skeleton/bone shit is more than likely just an Izanami influence thing, though.