Central Fiction Arcade Plot Discussion (spoilers)

[NoelChan101]

Okay watching Mu 12's arcade modes again, and I am starting to think she is the Noel we all know the way she acts and speaks and Noel has been acting somewhat not like herself so......

I don't know when the split happened but in Lambda's arcade she transforms into Mu after the BlackBeast incident am I missing something here????

[Volt]

54 minutes ago, NoelChan101 said:

Okay watching Mu 12's arcade modes again, and I am starting to think she is the Noel we all know the way she acts and speaks and Noel has been acting somewhat not like herself so......

I don't know when the split happened but in Lambda's arcade she transforms into Mu after the BlackBeast incident am I missing something here????

Yes. There is a gap between CP and Act I full of events that we don't even know about. Apparently Noel decided to reject Mu when she saw the gate when she was devoured by Berserk Ragna and they actually split inside the embryo.

I'm starting to question how canon is Lambda's CPEX ending, but as I said, there is a gap between CP and Act I, so I can't be sure what really happened.

[Stryker115]

On 4/27/2016 at 10:36 AM, 1337 H@x0r said:

If Raquel survives then Clavis has no need to create Rachel as her replacement and if Saya Terumi survives then she remains a potential early host for Izanami which in turn eliminates the need for Relius to kidnap Jin and Saya Kisaragi and experiment on them.

Without siblings to originate his tragedy, without Rachel to save his life and possibly without being created if Relius was involved with it somehow, Ragna's chances of existing as he is in any timeline which had Naoto surviving drops significantly.

The two distinct timelines are practically impossible to merge within Amaterasu's observed quantum of possibilities so for as long as her focus is on Ragna and not Naoto then the latter's reality goes to the reciclying bin. With that said, his very existence outside logic in the embryo can turn the situation upside down if he gets too close to Ragna.

If Amaterasu, even for a moment, observes Naoto as the "hero" of her story instead of Ragna then she might accidentaly erase all of the BB timeline and canonize BEE as the "real" one. This means that Rachel gets replaced by Raquel, Saya Kisaragi gets replaced by Saya Terumi and god knows what replaces the Dark War if Ragna never comes to exist to cause the timeloop paradox.

Saya Kisaragi? Since when was Saya a member of the Kisaragi family? Did you forget that Jin was merely ADOPTED?!

[1337 H@x0r]

Well...

5 hours ago, Stryker115 said:

Saya Kisaragi? Since when was Saya a member of the Kisaragi family? Did you forget that Jin was merely ADOPTED?!

You missed the part were I said "let's call her Saya Kisaragi for convenience", it's just that comparing Saya Terumi to Saya nosurname is a tad confusing.

[kylehyde]

39 minutes ago, 1337 H@x0r said:

Well...

You missed the part were I said "let's call her Saya Kisaragi for convenience", it's just that comparing Saya Terumi to Saya nosurname is a tad confusing.

I think your just adding to the confusion by adding surnames to characters that have no relation to said surname 

[Ogiga99]

1 hour ago, 1337 H@x0r said:

Well...

You missed the part were I said "let's call her Saya Kisaragi for convenience", it's just that comparing Saya Terumi to Saya nosurname is a tad confusing.

No, this is more confusing because it has no intuitive reasoning behind it (what makes Kisaragi better than calling her "Saya the Bloodedge" or "Saya Vermillion"). Just stick to "Saya" for Ragna's sister and only specify "Saya Terumi" for Naoto's sister or use something like BB!Saya and BE!Saya to specify which series they come from. BlazBlue Saya has been around for a lot longer than Saya Terumi so people are going to assume you're talking about her automatically unless you specify or make the context clear anyway.

[Stryker115]

2 hours ago, 1337 H@x0r said:

Well...

You missed the part were I said "let's call her Saya Kisaragi for convenience", it's just that comparing Saya Terumi to Saya nosurname is a tad confusing.

The way you post is just kinda shit to begin with. Especially with all your opening statements being "Well..." followed by a quote.

Just drop the freakin "well..."

 

As for the Saya confusion... HOW THE HELL ARE YOU CONFUSING THE TWO?!

One has a Surname and the other DOESN'T

Is that too hard to remember? Or is typing the surname just too hard for you?!

It's like remembering the names of 2 friends who have a similar given name! It's NOT HARD.

Call her S.Terumi or Saya.T or WHATEVER.

Saya is SAYA

Only JIN is KISARAGI

[BlazGearRegalia]

Now that Saya T. was mentioned, I just remembered back in Act 2, Izanami was having trouble moving with Naoto in her presence and it was confirmed that Saya T. is not there, right? I still don't understand how that even happened, or was it simply just a mistake on Relius's end from modifying [original] Saya's body?

[Volt]

13 hours ago, Stryker115 said:

The way you post is just kinda shit to begin with. Especially with all your opening statements being "Well..." followed by a quote.

Just drop the freakin "well..."

 

As for the Saya confusion... HOW THE HELL ARE YOU CONFUSING THE TWO?!

One has a Surname and the other DOESN'T

Is that too hard to remember? Or is typing the surname just too hard for you?!

It's like remembering the names of 2 friends who have a similar given name! It's NOT HARD.

Call her S.Terumi or Saya.T or WHATEVER.

Saya is SAYA

Only JIN is KISARAGI

Even though I completely agree with your post, you really gotta chill.

 

But yeah, that's why I said that calling Saya "Kisaragi" was a terrible idea right when you first mentioned it, 1337, it's not just inconvenient, it's just plain wrong.

Sayaaaaaa (Insert OD Noise) The Bloodedge is the way to go. 

[Ogiga99]

On 5/13/2016 at 9:45 PM, Volt said:

Yes. There is a gap between CP and Act I full of events that we don't even know about. Apparently Noel decided to reject Mu when she saw the gate when she was devoured by Berserk Ragna and they actually split inside the embryo.

I'm starting to question how canon is Lambda's CPEX ending, but as I said, there is a gap between CP and Act I, so I can't be sure what really happened.

I have a hard time believing Lambda's CPEX ending is non-canon since they seem to be intentionally making a point of having the Arcade ending for the Extend characters fit into the canon timeline (Relius "kills" Hazama so Terumi can return to spirit form and infiltrate Takamagahara per the True Ending in CSEX and Celica's takes place in a "dream" while Kokonoe works on her before the events of the game in CPEX). Also, it is impossible from an in-universe persepctive for Lambda's ending to be made non-canon (as in they are events that happened but didn't stick because of time shenanigans) because there was no Phenomenon Intervention at the time and the Embryo hadn't begun the insane Entitled stuff we see in Act 1. If there was no kind of reset then this would be the first case of an event simply being retconned as if it never existed with no explanation in the entire series. Considering how 99% of the convoluted nature of this story exists specifically to prevent that from happening, I'm almost certain that there is an answer that we simply don't know yet. One thing to consider is that Lambda's ending is not the only thing that doesn't have an answer yet. There was also the scenes after the battle with JIn and Noel being heavily injured and Rachel telling Tsubaki to kill her if Ragna dies which I doubt will simply be forgotten. We don't even know for sure if Mu was swallowed by Berserk Ragna during the fight we see in CP, it could have been during a second fight, or maybe Noel did see something during that first fight but wasn't actually able to split until the Embryo battle happened (hence why she could still turn into Mu in Lambda's Arcade). Basically a lot of stuff needs to have happened before everyone magically got sucked into the Embryo so everything has enough wiggle room to fit together.

 

43 minutes ago, BlazGearRegalia said:

Now that Saya T. was mentioned, I just remembered back in Act 2, Izanami was having trouble moving with Naoto in her presence and it was confirmed that Saya T. is not there, right? I still don't understand how that even happened, or was it simply just a mistake on Relius's end from modifying [original] Saya's body?

Correct. Naoto explicitly confirms that Izanami is not Saya Terumi. This scene actually denies several related theories at once. It confirms that the physical body of Saya is not the same one as Saya Terumi in some way, it confirms that the spirit Izanami itself is not in any way a form of Saya Terumi and it confirms that Saya Terumi was never made into a vessel for Izanami (Izanami inherits her vessel's memories and some emotions, evident by her calling Ragna brother and her resentment of Terumi, but Izanami doesn't recognize Naoto, Saya Terumi's brother, at all).

It is unclear at the moment exactly why Izanami couldn't move but I doubt it has any connection to Relius's modifications. My guess is that it is a result of Saya being confused by Naoto, who's presence is similar to her brother. People tend to single out this event as unique but there are many situations exactly like this, with people thinking Naoto is Ragna and acting unnaturally because of it (Nu's screaming breakdown and Rachel's never before seen rage to name a few). For the most part, these situations (as well as Naoto mistaken people for those he knows like Kiiro/Nu, Raquel/Rachel, Hero of Justice/Hakumen) are most likely about similarities and some kind of overlap as opposed to being directly the same person or thing.

[BlazGearRegalia]

1 hour ago, Ogiga99 said:

I have a hard time believing Lambda's CPEX ending is non-canon since they seem to be intentionally making a point of having the Arcade ending for the Extend characters fit into the canon timeline (Relius "kills" Hazama so Terumi can return to spirit form and infiltrate Takamagahara per the True Ending in CSEX and Celica's takes place in a "dream" while Kokonoe works on her before the events of the game in CPEX). Also, it is impossible from an in-universe persepctive for Lambda's ending to be made non-canon (as in they are events that happened but didn't stick because of time shenanigans) because there was no Phenomenon Intervention at the time and the Embryo hadn't begun the insane Entitled stuff we see in Act 1. If there was no kind of reset then this would be the first case of an event simply being retconned as if it never existed with no explanation in the entire series. Considering how 99% of the convoluted nature of this story exists specifically to prevent that from happening, I'm almost certain that there is an answer that we simply don't know yet. One thing to consider is that Lambda's ending is not the only thing that doesn't have an answer yet. There was also the scenes after the battle with JIn and Noel being heavily injured and Rachel telling Tsubaki to kill her if Ragna dies which I doubt will simply be forgotten. We don't even know for sure if Mu was swallowed by Berserk Ragna during the fight we see in CP, it could have been during a second fight, or maybe Noel did see something during that first fight but wasn't actually able to split until the Embryo battle happened (hence why she could still turn into Mu in Lambda's Arcade). Basically a lot of stuff needs to have happened before everyone magically got sucked into the Embryo so everything has enough wiggle room to fit together.

 

Correct. Naoto explicitly confirms that Izanami is not Saya Terumi. This scene actually denies several related theories at once. It confirms that the physical body of Saya is not the same one as Saya Terumi in some way, it confirms that the spirit Izanami itself is not in any way a form of Saya Terumi and it confirms that Saya Terumi was never made into a vessel for Izanami (Izanami inherits her vessel's memories and some emotions, evident by her calling Ragna brother and her resentment of Terumi, but Izanami doesn't recognize Naoto, Saya Terumi's brother, at all).

It is unclear at the moment exactly why Izanami couldn't move but I doubt it has any connection to Relius's modifications. My guess is that it is a result of Saya being confused by Naoto, who's presence is similar to her brother. People tend to single out this event as unique but there are many situations exactly like this, with people thinking Naoto is Ragna and acting unnaturally because of it (Nu's screaming breakdown and Rachel's never before seen rage to name a few). For the most part, these situations (as well as Naoto mistaken people for those he knows like Kiiro/Nu, Raquel/Rachel, Hero of Justice/Hakumen) are most likely about similarities and some kind of overlap as opposed to being directly the same person or thing.

Ah, I see, thanks!

 

Let's see, mysteries yet to be solved:

 

- Lamb-chops CPEX Ending

- Behind the scenes of the Black Beast Ragna and Noel/Mu

- Jubei and Nine's throwdown in CP [the old cat fights Nine, we don't know what happened afterwards, and he suddenly comes out of nowhere in Act 3]

 

Any other "unanswered" events I'm missing that haven't already been brought up?

[Yoshirocks92]

10 minutes ago, BlazGearRegalia said:

Ah, I see, thanks!

 

Let's see, mysteries yet to be solved:

 

- Lamb-chops CPEX Ending

- Behind the scenes of the Black Beast Ragna and Noel/Mu

- Jubei and Nine's throwdown in CP [the old cat fights Nine, we don't know what happened afterwards, and he suddenly comes out of nowhere in Act 3]

 

Any other "unanswered" events I'm missing that haven't already been brought up?

Well I guess we'll find out once the Console Version of Central Fiction comes out this fall.

[Ogiga99]

2 hours ago, BlazGearRegalia said:

Let's see, mysteries yet to be solved:

 

- Lamb-chops CPEX Ending

- Behind the scenes of the Black Beast Ragna and Noel/Mu

- Jubei and Nine's throwdown in CP [the old cat fights Nine, we don't know what happened afterwards, and he suddenly comes out of nowhere in Act 3]

 

Any other "unanswered" events I'm missing that haven't already been brought up?

There are far more questions from between CP and CF than just that.

• What happened to the real world and all of the people who survived the initial seithr flood but are not Entitled and if they were also absorbed into the Embryo, how did that happen
• Why is Ragna no longer berserk, why was he brought into the Embryo before everyone else and why did he lose his memories
• How did Jin recover from his near-fatal injuries after fighting Berserk Ragna
• How did Trinity's soul wind up inside Jin
• How did Platinum survive getting stabbed by Hazama and is it connected to Trinity leaving them
• What happened to Bullet after she suddenly disappeared before the True Ending
• What happened to Arakune after he suddenly disappeared before the True Ending
• What happened to Tao after he suddenly disappeared before the True Ending
• When did the OPFD jump ship into Noel's head
• Where did Hakumen go after Izanami teleported him away in CP's True Ending
• How did Kushinada's Lynchpin end up inside the Embryo when it was hanging halfway into a Cauldron
• How did the Alucard Castle end up inside the Embryo
• How come Bang has Phoenix: Rettenjou when we clearly see that it is still sticking out of Kushinada's Lynchpin (and Tenjo's soul is still inside of one in the Lynchpin)
• What happened to Relius helping Carl restore Ada
• What about all of the non-playable characters that seem Entitled-worthy but are not present like Torakaka, Mai, Kajun or Taro
• And most importantly: How did everyone end up in the Embryo in the first place

And this is just what I can think of right now.

[Rotlung]

Huh. That's an awfully long list. I was wondering, based on the discussions, if everyone already knew the answers to these questions and that it was just me failing to keep up.

I don't think there was such a huge gap between CS and CP.

[Stryker115]

1 hour ago, Ogiga99 said:

And this is just what I can think of right now.

You forgot the most important part:

How is Ragna going to hold a conversation with Tenjo if Ragna is deathly afraid of ghosts?

[BlazGearRegalia]

30 minutes ago, Ogiga99 said:

There are far more questions from between CP and CF than just that.

• What happened to the real world and all of the people who survived the initial seithr flood but are not Entitled and if they were also absorbed into the Embryo, how did that happen
• Why is Ragna no longer berserk, why was he brought into the Embryo before everyone else and why did he lose his memories
• How did Jin recover from his near-fatal injuries after fighting Berserk Ragna
• How did Trinity's soul wind up inside Jin
• How did Platinum survive getting stabbed by Hazama and is it connected to Trinity leaving them
• What happened to Bullet after she suddenly disappeared before the True Ending
• What happened to Arakune after he suddenly disappeared before the True Ending
• What happened to Tao after he suddenly disappeared before the True Ending
• When did the OPFD jump ship into Noel's head
• Where did Hakumen go after Izanami teleported him away in CP's True Ending
• How did Kushinada's Lynchpin end up inside the Embryo when it was hanging halfway into a Cauldron
• How did the Alucard Castle end up inside the Embryo
• How come Bang has Phoenix: Rettenjou when we clearly see that it is still sticking out of Kushinada's Lynchpin (and Tenjo's soul is still inside of one in the Lynchpin)
• What happened to Relius helping Carl restore Ada
• What about all of the non-playable characters that seem Entitled-worthy but are not present like Torakaka, Mai, Kajun or Taro
• And most importantly: How did everyone end up in the Embryo in the first place

And this is just what I can think of right now.

 

Thanks, I had a few of those in mind, but anyways, just in the name of speculation, I'll take a crack at giving my thoughts on a few:

 

Ragna's beserk, first to get sucked into the Embryo, and amnesia - First, how did Ragna's beserk mode ended? Two thoughts from me. Either 1) since it was Izanami who forced him to beserk, she probably somehow subdued the Azure Grimoire, or 2) Ragna somehow regained control of himself and returned himself to normal. Probably wouldn't make sense, given how weak he is in the story, and him being able to take control in Black Beast mode would put him up there Izanami's level of strength, and it would raise more questions.

Why was Ragna the first to get sucked into the Embryo? Either he was the closest to it. or someone used it to drag him in there. Best bet is either Izanami or Nine, since it was said that Nine used the Embryo to test Ragna's resolve. [Probably part of her plan to destroy the world]

Why does Ragna have amnesia? I actually don't have anything for this. I'll just leave that question with: Freakin' Mori.

 

How did Jin recover from his near-fatal injuries after fighting Berserk Ragna? How did Trinity wind up inside Jin? Most like Mori is probably gonna pull The Power of Order as an excuse, just as he did with Jin being able to observe Platinum, since as far as we know, no one has a healing factor and ghosts don't just take control of a body with a soul already in it. Honestly, as of late, I'm really starting to question what kind of mind Mori has, cause as much as I love BlazBlue's story for being the kind that you just can't tell what will happen next, I've gotten headaches from trying to piece things together. I'm even questioning if this really will be the end of the road for Ragna, cause I'm having a hard time believing they're ready to let him go just yet. But enough about that.

 

When did OPFD jump ship into Noel's head? When she decided that Noel was the girl she wanted to be. We'll probably figure out an explanation when CF hits and we learn of OPFD's origins.

 

 

This is just my speculation on the matter.

 

8 minutes ago, Stryker115 said:

You forgot the most important part:

How is Ragna going to hold a conversation with Tenjo if Ragna is deathly afraid of ghosts?

 

Hold him down, or something, or just have Makoto use her bushy tail to keep him calm. [Although chances are she'll reject to that idea immediately, LOL XD]

[Stryker115]

6 minutes ago, BlazGearRegalia said:

Hold him down, or something, or just have Makoto use her bushy tail to keep him calm. [Although chances are she'll reject to that idea immediately, LOL XD]

He was going in alone. Until Amane stopped him in his tracks.

She might also be OK with that idea. Sadly I don't think even Makoto's tail would be able to hold him down.

[Ogiga99]

2 hours ago, Rotlung said:

Huh. That's an awfully long list. I was wondering, based on the discussions, if everyone already knew the answers to these questions and that it was just me failing to keep up.

I don't think there was such a huge gap between CS and CP.

There was a period of one month between the end of CS and the beginning of CP. CP and CF almost certainly have a much smaller gap (especially considering Terumi's Self-Observation time limit). However, much less actually happened between CS and CP compared to CP and CF. Everyone's ending in CS was basically "let's go to Ikaruga" and then everyone arrived in Ikaruga about a month later. Aside from the major players setting up their plans (Kagura and Kokonoe establishing a base, bringing Celica to the future, Litchi and Relius experimenting, opening all of the Cauldrons) not that many significant events happen. Basically CP picked up after a relatively event-less time skip but CF (at least in Arcade Mode) takes place in media res with a whole bunch of world changing stuff having happened.

 

58 minutes ago, Stryker115 said:

You forgot the most important part:

How is Ragna going to hold a conversation with Tenjo if Ragna is deathly afraid of ghosts?

I was only referring to questions regarding events between CP and CF that led to the current situation. If we were to include all the questions about what is currently happening or will happen, the list never end.

Does Tenjo really count as a "ghost?" He's a soul sealed inside the Phoenix: Rettenjou so he's not really dead and he probably can't manifest in a see through physical appearance that Ragna could see but not cut. Terumi is more of a ghost than Tenjo and Ragna can handle him.

[Fenris]

On 5/16/2016 at 9:03 PM, 1337 H@x0r said:

Well...

You missed the part were I said "let's call her Saya Kisaragi for convenience", it's just that comparing Saya Terumi to Saya nosurname is a tad confusing.

Most people assume you mean BB Saya whenever you say "Saya," as that is the game we're discussing in this CF thread. "Saya Terumi is just a side character whose name barely comes up, and if/when it does, it's easier to just say "BE Saya" or "Saya T." Although, I personally like to refer to BB Saya as "Sayanami" unless I'm referring to Saya pre-possession.

[Luminos564]

Wasn't Celica in charge of healing both Jin and Noel post Berserk-Ragna sticking his Dead Spike up their Monoliths? I just assumed she completed her task since Jin's looking pretty darn spry in CF.

And joking aside, Ragna seems to have gone through a much bigger character arc following his amnesia. He's still very much Ragna, but at the same time different. For one, he's certainly more calm and composed, only letting out his rage when it'd make sense to do so (like against Saya). Perhaps he has also gotten over his fear of ghosts the same way? I'd laugh my ass off if some of the joke endings in CF attempt to pull the past pranks on him from the other games, only for him to be completely unfazed.

[Tokkan]

Trinity is responsible for Jin being completely healed; it was part of their pact to work with each other.

[NoelChan101]

About pacts Terumi and Kazuma had one right so was the pact for Trinity residing in Jin

So I am going to guess that Saya was forced to make a pact or Izanami forced her way in without the pact cause I doubt Saya would comply.

Makes it sound like a pact/merge is inviting someone in. But forcing yourself into vessel would cause problems ex: Izanami and Saya.

But do they ever go into detail about pacts in the Phase shift Novels????

[Volt]

3 minutes ago, NoelChan101 said:

About pacts Terumi and Kazuma had one right so was the pact for Trinity residing in Jin

So I am going to guess that Saya was forced to make a pact or Izanami forced her way in without the pact cause I doubt Saya would comply.

Makes it sound like a pact/merge is inviting someone in. But forcing yourself into vessel would cause problems ex: Izanami and Saya.

But do they ever go into detail about pacts in the Phase shift Novels????

You're looking too deep into this.

It's simpler than it looks like, Trinity pretty much just asked Jin to let her chill inside him a bit while she could get back to Platinum. In exchange, she healed him so he wouldn't be bedridden while stuff was htting the fan in the embryo. As far as we know, a soul isn't exactly hard to stuff on things, or at least that's what Relius makes it look like.

[Ogiga99]

45 minutes ago, NoelChan101 said:

About pacts Terumi and Kazuma had one right so was the pact for Trinity residing in Jin

So I am going to guess that Saya was forced to make a pact or Izanami forced her way in without the pact cause I doubt Saya would comply.

Makes it sound like a pact/merge is inviting someone in. But forcing yourself into vessel would cause problems ex: Izanami and Saya.

But do they ever go into detail about pacts in the Phase shift Novels????

They are all different things. Terumi and Kazuma/Hazama is about an artificial vessel for Terumi meant to be a complete fusion and required the hosts to have very similar souls to Terumi. It is a specific situation to Terumi created by Relius. Izanami is different because Saya doesn't have a similar soul and doesn't have any control. Terumi basically had to destroy her mind so Izanami could take control. Trinity is just hanging out with Jin like how the OPFD seems to be in Noel.

[FA-ST]

Not really important, but:

Quote

Before he left, Clavis stopped his wheelchair for a moment and spoke to Jin.

"Young man. Please, live true to your own heart."

The old voice thoroughly held deep affection. It was like he wouldn't be here if not for it.

Clavis looked back at Jin and made a worried, strained smile.

"...Once, I have said something similar to someone who was very much like you, but... Oh dear, it seems I am not able to remember who the person was. It appears I am being reduced to a part of the repeating dream, too. It has to be my age."

Is Clavis talking about Naoto here? Did Mori actually plan THIS far ahead?!