Mikachiru Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 Thanks ocdscale. I'm bad at explaining things...^^;; Anyway, could someone tell me why Carl has a disadvantage to Jin?
.otter. Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 How is Taokaka-Arakune 4-6? It really does feel a good bit worse than that. His evasion, projectiles and sheer range in every direction for air attacks, along with the cloud cutting off movement possibilities for a movement-based character along with massive damage opportunities. And he can do whatever he wants in the air because of Taokaka's weak anti-air game. Just trying to get in against him is risking something with Taokaka. And once the bees are out, Taokaka's guard libra and barrier are gone VERY quickly. I have to agree. This is Tao's worst, and only one-sided matchup. It's an uphill battle (albeit not quite as steep as it is for Tager) to get past all Ara's garbage. If you're lucky enough to make it through the obstacle course alive, he will just burst and have the projectiles back out before you wakeup. His verticle beam super has so much startup invulnerability that it must be treated like a DP, meaning if you're lucky enough to get a knockdown you're not guaranteed any decent oki. Plus Ara gets a free curse after the super simply for hilarity's sake.
Matt Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 Tao vs Arakune is 5:5. You don't think so, learn to block.
XDest Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 Tao vs Arakune is 5:5. You don't think so, learn to block. Explain why first. I gave valid explanations where I believe it's by far her worst match-up. Mostly every Taokaka player on this site is going to say the same. Also, as Taokaka has poor guard libra and negative penalty, that's probably the worst advice you can give us.
Matt Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 Tao can get past everything he sets up easily and once a Taokaka player has control over the match it can spell out a game over for the Arakune player. But if you are so set on it being impossible, I would say it's no worse than 6:4 in Arakune's favor.
XDest Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 Easily? Seriously? The chances are much better of Tao moving into a bell bug, dive, cloud, etc... And when she's in the air, Arakune obviously has the advantage because she's already moving towards him, trying to avoid shit. Inescapably, the move Arakune will do will come out faster, and have a bigger hitbox. You don't want to j.D him, since he can just cloud you while you're coming towards him. Half the time you don't want to 2D on the ground when he's in the air because you'll be at the wrong angle, or it'll trade with a dive. But 2D is usually your best bet anyways because of the damage. 6A is pathetic and doesn't anti-air anything, it's not worth talking about. j.C is too angle-specific usually but is still her best air attack, j.A has a really small hitbox and won't get any damage (but will beat him out), and j.B is too slow. If Taokaka gets past everything, Arakune will still probably beat her out. There's no proper strategy vs Arakune in the air. Most of them end out with you chasing them, and eating a dive or curse. Just because you can move well, does not mean you have a good air/anti-air game.
MisoSowee Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 Okay I'm stupid I'm officially gonna stop trying to talk about characters I don't use. IGNORE ME AND PLEASE DON'T THINK LESS OF ME. T_T.
XDest Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 Eh? I was just trying to argue my point in a nice and direct manner... No need to go off like that, Miso. I never see any Arakune vs Tao matches end up like Matt says, and am quite confused on the matter. http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm7183671 Just block and evade, you'll be just fine... ugh.
MisoSowee Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 I actually don't fight taokaka that much.... nor do I fight arakune that much..... I don't remember what pattern her drives work. I just thought she could like.... zip over the bell bug... or something. x_x
Matt Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 1. It's Fumo 2. Second round was very close and either one could have won 3. At worst it's still 6:4 Arakune's favor 4. Stop playing against Arakune if you're gonna complain so much
A.X.I.S. Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 Eh? I was just trying to argue my point in a nice and direct manner... No need to go off like that, Miso. I never see any Arakune vs Tao matches end up like Matt says, and am quite confused on the matter. http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm7183671 Just block and evade, you'll be just fine... ugh. we all know arakune is everyone's worse night mare..but your points game me great insight into the issues tao face with it... wtf @ tagers match up stats....
XDest Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 I'm not complaining, I'm arguing with specific valid points. You seem more like you're complaining about me refuting your opinion. That's what this thread is for. To discuss the match-up. Why the hell am I in the wrong for that?
Siefer Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 I'm by no means an expert on Jin, but I used to main Ragna and I now main Jin. That being said, I feel that Jin has advantage in this match-up, maybe 5.5/4.5 or 6/4. Jin pretty much rapes Ragna in the air, Ragna has very few answers to j.B in air-to-air...and well, that's pretty much it. I mean, Jin's j.B is one of the best air-to-air moves in the game as is. Jin is also one of the few people that can nullify Ragna's 6A as AA, and even ID becomes somewhat suspect against Jin's aerial assault via j.C and j.A. This allows Jin to get in and apply his pressure game. On the flip side, Ragna's 5B is pretty beast at its optimal range. This allows Ragna to sacrifice air mobility for ground mobility, and in his optimal range, Ragna beats Jin. Max distance 5C allows him to bypass Jin's 5D as well. Jin CAN 5A Ragna out of 5B, but I find this a little risky to do unless you know it's coming. Both characters can DP out of pressure strings...so yea...I feel that Jin's pressure game is a little more threatening than Ragna's though. Both characters can rape in the corners, but Jin is far more effective at it than Ragna. The one area that really differentiates them is their avg. dmg output. On avg. Ragna will be doing less dmg than Jin, partly because of their HP differential, and partly because combos at optimal 5B/max distance 5C range will do less dmg. than the avg. Jin combo without meter. Ragna also needs to sacrifice damage or meter in order to set up him for mix-ups and better positioning, whereas Jin doesn't have to do either (well...he does have to sacrifice damage for mix-up in the corner, but against Ragna, anything over 3.5k hurts). I also feel that Jin has more opportunities to set up optimal damage combos against Ragna than Ragna does due to their mobility options in this match-up. Outside of 22D resets (which aren't even that great against Jin anyway because he can DP out of the 50/50 mix-up), this is one case where I feel Ragna should actually be optimizing his damage output rather than looking into resets in order to make up for this differential in avg. dmg output per combo/hit. To be frank, I feel that Ragna needs to be the better player in order to win this match-up due to the endurance match being in Jin's favor (thus Ragna needs to create more opportunities than Jin does), whereas Jin can win simply because of his superior options in this particular match-up.
BANGER Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 Hmm, how does Jin nullify Ragna's 6A? I find that a pain in the ass. As you said, Ragna's 5B is godlike and it's hard to take him on the ground. Ragna's air is also not as good as Jin's. But a good Ragna will most likely stay on the ground and take advantage of his 5B, or nullify your attempts at j.B with 6A. I'm a Jin main too, and he's one of my current troublesome matchups. Though my friend, who plays better than me, also thinks this matchup is in Jin's favor, so maybe I missed something.
worldjem7 Posted September 21, 2009 Author Posted September 21, 2009 I apologize but can anyone explain to me how to read this chart Ignore the colours for now. Top chart is the Match-up Chart. The chart is read left to right, with the match-ups for a corresponding character on the left being the first number and the top character having the second number. If you look at Carl and go across to Tager you see "80." This means that Carl has an 80-20 Match-up on Tager. Also notice that if you go down to Tager on the left and look across to Carl, the match-up will read "20" which means Tager has a 20-80 match-up against Carl. The higher the number for the character on the left, the better the match-up is for them. So, Carl has the 80 and Tager has the 20. The Ratings for each character is listed on the right side. The math behind this rating can be found on the first post. The rating is a way to rank each character according to their match-ups. The difference column is also explained on the first post. The Bottom Chart is the Distribution Chart. This chart shows how many match-ups each character has of all the different possible match-ups. For example, Rachel has: One 45-55 against her Two Even match-ups with other characters. One 55-45 in her favour Five 60-40 in her favour. Two 70-30 in her favour. And Zero match-ups of everything else. These are all summed up on the right side, where it includes all her match-ups including the mirror. Having more favourable match-ups is good and having more unfavourable match-ups is bad. The colours are only there to make it easier to read. Green means good and Red means bad. The difference column is used to separate the characters into groups. This is explained on the first post. The colours used to sort characters depend on how many different groups there are. Right now there are 5 groups and can act like Mikachiru said. Grey means top tier Blue means high tier Purple is mid-tier Green is low tier Red is bottom tier Hope this cleared up everything.
Mekki-Maru Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 What does Rachel do that Nu doesn't do better? Nu can be in trouble if you can get in on her. Rachel doesn't give a fuck where you are. Tao vs Arakune is 5:5. You don't think so, learn to block. Yeah, with that awesome guard libra against dude with all the guard-break loops!
Siefer Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 Hmm, how does Jin nullify Ragna's 6A? I find that a pain in the ass. As you said, Ragna's 5B is godlike and it's hard to take him on the ground. Ragna's air is also not as good as Jin's. But a good Ragna will most likely stay on the ground and take advantage of his 5B, or nullify your attempts at j.B with 6A. I'm a Jin main too, and he's one of my current troublesome matchups. Though my friend, who plays better than me, also thinks this matchup is in Jin's favor, so maybe I missed something. j.C will beat Ragna's 6A. j.A should also beat Ragna's 6A. j.C can also clash with ID depending on positioning. Take ID and 6A away from Ragna...and what does he have for AA? It's not the greatest example, but if you notice, whenever Kaqn plays Buppa or Ren, he usually tries to do j.A preemptively to take out Jin in the air rather than 6A.
PkHYpeR Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 Jin is also one of the few people that can nullify Ragna's 6A as AA, and even ID becomes somewhat suspect against Jin's aerial assault via j.C and j.A. This allows Jin to get in and apply his pressure game. Jin can Impossible Dust?
Mikachiru Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 I think Nu Vs. Carl should be 45:55 or 40:60. I don't really see how Nu has the advantage (other than higher hp and attack)...
Kurushii Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 I think Nu Vs. Carl should be 45:55 or 40:60. I don't really see how Nu has the advantage (other than higher hp and attack)... Cause Nu can zone the fuck out of Carl with ease. If he tries to hide behind Nirvana we can just 4DD and stop him.
Mikachiru Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 Cause Nu can zone the fuck out of Carl with ease. If he tries to hide behind Nirvana we can just 4DD and stop him. I haven't fought a good Nu so I don't really know. I forgot what 4DD was...
Hellmonkey Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 before any of you hurfdurfs drop your character for another solely based on this chart, remember that this is only opinion and that there are no 10-0 matchups. Unless you're playing tager v nu/carl or hakumen v arakune 24/7, PLAY SMARTER AND HARDER. Or make the wiser decision to wait for an update that hopefully balances and makes the game more fun
Kurushii Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 I haven't fought a good Nu so I don't really know. I forgot what 4DD was... 4DD with Nu is the swords that come from behind the opponent going upper hit then a lower hit.
Matt Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 I'm not complaining, I'm arguing with specific valid points. You seem more like you're complaining about me refuting your opinion. That's what this thread is for. To discuss the match-up. Why the hell am I in the wrong for that? Alright, I just found it annoying that you talked about it like there was nothing for Taokaka to do. If you watch the video you posted closer you would see that while cursed the Taokaka player would go on the offensive at times and then get immediately punished with a C/B bug that usually lead to a combo and recurse. It was a dumb move that happened several times in the first round, which is why the player got utterly destroyed. Also, with the whole Taokaka can't do anything against Arakune there are actually a lot of things she can do. When she's close enough she can use her drive to attack an Arakune player pulling out a cloud. She can use her drive to go over the bell bug or if there's an overhead cloud she can airdash into the bell bug, IB the bell bug and then go on the offensive. When Arakune is approaching with j5B, she can IB it and when he lands get a counter hit with a poke that should lead into a combo. When Arakune does the dragon move she can back dash to avoid it. This makes it so that the Arakune player can't cancel j2A, so he'll sink into the ground and on the loooong recovery time she can just start a free combo. All I'm saying is you present it as impossible while it's very possible. Although, I'll concede a little and say it's 6:4 in Arakune's favor, but it is no worse than that. Arakune's worst match ups are reserved for Hakumen 7:3, Bang 6.5-7:3-3.5 and Tager 7.5:2.5.
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