MadRhetoric Posted December 6, 2009 Posted December 6, 2009 so what was the point of doing dash-hotaru in CT, if not going for a high? are you thinking about tsubaki?
qwerty Posted December 6, 2009 Posted December 6, 2009 he was probably thinking about hotaru, because i've heard from other people that they thought it was an overhead. which is funny because like, i never do it when people are guarding low. if i wanna beat their mashing while they're crouched i'll usually just do 6B instead.
rtl42 Posted December 6, 2009 Posted December 6, 2009 huh, go figure, i had it wrong all this time, but i guess it serves me right for not double-checking. anyways thx for being patient with me :china:
BladeOfJustice7 Posted December 6, 2009 Posted December 6, 2009 Hakumen's meter gain: -auto gain is slower -gain from being hit is slightly higher I think. May be wrong. I thought it was just flat-out higher at first but I think I was wrong. -gain from hitting your opponent is much higher. In CT combos only return 1 magatama. In CS they return 1.8 magatamas (2 if you factor in the time required to return to neutral) -IB is the same I believe 2C is a horrid AA due to mediocre start up (not really the problem) and terrible hitbox (the problem). resort to jump jD, hotaru, 5A before you think about 2C. Litchi won't be hakumen's worst match-up. RTSD characters are never truly a problem for hakumen, the same reason why rachel in CT wasn't really that bad for hakumen. Would you say this is a viable AA in ct as well ryoko? How is the tech time when you do a jd>hotaru?
ryokoalways Posted December 6, 2009 Posted December 6, 2009 jD is useless. I've never used it once in any match.
DavidGuard Posted December 6, 2009 Posted December 6, 2009 jD is useless. I've never used it once in any match. J.d isn't as useless as it was in ct, it leads to combos now and is good for baiting an AA. edit* nm, I see you were talking about ct's j.d
ryokoalways Posted December 6, 2009 Posted December 6, 2009 The question: ould you say this is a viable AA in ct as well ryoko? The answer: jD is useless. I've never used it once in any match. I do not like to quote/repeat myself, btw.
MadRhetoric Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 j.D is made useless in CT by hotaru (and also his 6A to an extent). air to air if you think they're going to attack you may as well use hotaru which is much safer and better pay-off, otherwise air throw. The reason it will be good in CS is because of the majorly adjusted risk-reward from it, and the fact that you don't have 6A to use anyway. It does high damage and you can do pretty much any combo off of it.
MisoSowee Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 I was wondering about this special proration I heard about on using the same move over and over (J.2c) can you still get 4k+ off of hotaru/tsubaki/renka? Also I was just wondering that because of the increased meter gain for hitting an opponent, would it be smarter to go for the less damaging but longer corner j.2c loops? likkeee most damage off of 623a~a is (as far as I know) 623a~a - j.C - 2c - j.2c - j.2c - AD - j.2c - j.2c a longer combo would be 623a~a - j.2c - j.2c - AD - j.2c - J.C - 2c - j.2c - AD - j.2c - j.2c
SimpleKiss Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 I was wondering about this special proration I heard about on using the same move over and over (J.2c) can you still get 4k+ off of hotaru/tsubaki/renka? Also I was just wondering that because of the increased meter gain for hitting an opponent, would it be smarter to go for the less damaging but longer corner j.2c loops? likkeee most damage off of 623a~a is (as far as I know) 623a~a - j.C - 2c - j.2c - j.2c - AD - j.2c - j.2c a longer combo would be 623a~a - j.2c - j.2c - AD - j.2c - J.C - 2c - j.2c - AD - j.2c - j.2c From what I've seen of CS hakumens, his air combo still does great damage.
Brotrr Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 Got a question about his 6A and 6B. Why are people saying that 6A isn't a good AA anymore? Did it lose it's head invulnerability or something? For the Haku-stomp, are there literally zero things you can do after it that can combo?
Sophisticat Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 6A now moves forward and, I believe, has a few extra frames of start-up. Invuln is the same. This means you can no longer react to most stuff unless you are strong in the yomi. 6B can be gatling'd into, but you can do nothing after. Now being an overhead it has a correspondingly slow startup, so it's not likely you'll land it on someone competent. Might be useful as a simple mix-up tool, but that's stuff to be discovered.
ryokoalways Posted December 8, 2009 Posted December 8, 2009 6A supposedly has 0 head attribute invincibility now. Instead it has real upper body (waist and up) invincibility. However, there is very little of it. Regardless of the case, 6A is no longer a viable AA. 6B is supposedly linkable if you 6B(1) > D move cancel because the first hit is suppose to ground bounce. Someone should get that checked out. Even if that's not true, 6B still works fine as a knockdown tool and poke bait, but there is no longer any return on counter. Edit: also, I don't know if it's just me, but 6B start-up feel pretty fast. I've looked at that move quite a few times, and I'm almost certain it's 17-18F start-up, with the initial part being ambiguous as well (a big plus).
Brotrr Posted December 8, 2009 Posted December 8, 2009 Okay, I get the general idea, but what's the difference between head attribute invincibility and upper body invincibility? Does head mean like it's invincible to attacks that visually hit near his head or something? Or that it's invincible to overheads? Sorry to bother you guys. And any reason why you would 6B(1) > D? Seems like if they block your 6B you might as well D after both hits since your opponent probably wouldn't try poking you between the two hits, unless I'm totally wrong.
fossil Posted December 8, 2009 Posted December 8, 2009 Most of Hakumen's normals can now be D canceled. Ryoko stated that if you cancel 6B(on hit) after the first hit it can supposedly be linked due to the ground bounce.
4r5 Posted December 8, 2009 Posted December 8, 2009 Anti-head means invincibility against moves with only(?) the head attribute. It won't matter how deep you land your attack, if it's a head attack then it'll whiff against a move with anti-head. Traditional invincibility is just rearranging the hitboxes around. So something that is upper body invincible means that there is no hitbox to hit some where around the upper body of the character. Think HDR's hitbox display mode, if you ever played that game.
qwerty Posted December 8, 2009 Posted December 8, 2009 what i can't help but wonder is how they implemented the hitbox invul if what ryoko said is true. is it in conjunction with attribute invul (the way i thought bbct worked for the longest time, no thanks to zetaboard's insistence on listing things as upper or lower body invul) or did they ditch attribute invul entirely? in any case, it's safe to say 6A is mostly to be used as a pressure and frametrap tool, not an anti air.
4r5 Posted December 8, 2009 Posted December 8, 2009 they game has always had both. what did r.always say? and from what I remember, when zetaboards said something was blahblah invul, they mean it in the traditional sense. and they specificly use anti-blah for all the attribute stuff wait no, they don't call things anti-blah. well, whatever. when they start talking about attributes, then you know they're talking about the attribute system. though they could be less ambiguous and not use the word 'invincible' when talking about attributes.
ryokoalways Posted December 8, 2009 Posted December 8, 2009 http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm8870665 @3:05, you can clearly see bang's jC going through hakumen's 6A. However, the attribute invincibility "circle" indicators did not come out, which means if it was beaten, it was beaten with real invincibility, and not attribute invincibility. Try to pause at the correct time and you will see that bang's foot overlaps hakumen's shoulder and head, so it wasn't a whiff.
MadRhetoric Posted December 8, 2009 Posted December 8, 2009 wait, I thought the circle indicators always came out on any kind of invincibility? Like in CT kishuu also has upper-body invuln and I'm pretty sure the circles appear there.
ryokoalways Posted December 8, 2009 Posted December 8, 2009 I don't believe it does. I kishuu under ragna's 5B all the time and I've never seen it.
MadRhetoric Posted December 8, 2009 Posted December 8, 2009 I really don't notice the rings at all during matches so I had to test it myself just now to be sure, but the ring does appear when you kishuu under Ragna's 5B, at least in CT. I have no idea if they changed it for CS. I think what happened in that video though is the j.C just whiffed. Bang's j.C only has 2 active frames but he keeps his leg extended for a little while afterwards, so its entirely possible for his foot to overlap but not hit. I also tested this in CT and its the case, but once again I'm not sure about CS.
Savageshell Posted December 8, 2009 Posted December 8, 2009 Wow Im all confused trying to follow this discussion of the different attributes and invincibilities:psyduck:...but I was wondering is CT still worth learning? I had recently started playing BB and trying to learn match-ups but CTF is getting CS pretty soon...
mAc Chaos Posted December 8, 2009 Posted December 8, 2009 Yeah, sure it is. Unless you want to be the guy who picks up CS and has no idea how to play while everyone else has tons of experience already. :P
ryokoalways Posted December 8, 2009 Posted December 8, 2009 I was wrong, there is indeed a circle, so assume it's a whiff and 6A has no invincibility of any type till frame data is released.
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