[CS1] Iron Tager vs. Carl

[bjholmes2]

CS matchup discussions are now open!

[GZ-Matthias]

Hmm, no one posted for this match up yet?! Not much has changed from CT except now Carl players don't have just 1 goal in mind and you can actually use your health bar now to feel okay taking a few risks since 1 mistake won't lose the round anymore.

Defense and patience are both still very important but do not forget Tager's 2C's/AC's new head invulnerability and definitely do not forget counter assault if you find yourself stuck in an unblockable setup. Namely if you get stuck against gear super in the corner and Carl RC's to do a walk up fully charged overhead unblockable. Just instant block that super to get all the heat you'd need to CA out of that (You should get about 40 heat from it ). 2C stuff's Crossups behind Tager if you can predict he'll be going for it. Most of the time Carl is going to want to do a crossup to get you sandwiched between him and the Doll. Fuck that shit up since it will be much harder to poke back at all when you're in between him and the Doll.

Also, Carl's doll's multi-hit sweep is only low on the first hit. Block it once and get ready for whatever overhead shenanigan they had in mind. If you are having trouble playing defense in this match up then realize that Carl will be delivering the faster mix ups. His Doll's moves are much more telegraphed so keep the focus on what Carl is up to himself. Don't try to jump out unless you notice the doll is up to something either otherwise you'll eat a clap.

Combo specifics: Do EGadget instead of BGadget in this match since it's 100 times easier to land if you want Gadget Finger.

Now for my questions: When can I fight back when I'm stuck between the doll and Carl? Instant blocking the doll's punch is a good start, but are there any other good times to the fight back my way? I've noticed blocking Carl's overhead is usually a good time to attempt a 360/720. Especially if the doll had just performed some other attack.

And if you're getting air juggled in the corner, how do you get out or get back to the ground safely? I learned he has a Tager only unblockable setup if the doll and him corner you. He'll juggle you up and do a !! throw. If you don't tech it you'll get bounced off a clap to another !! throw CT style, but if you do tech the throw he can jump back up and spam j.A on you. Forcing you to block and stay floating in the air for another clap to connect before you can land to block it. Options?

[Osuna]

And if you're getting air juggled in the corner, how do you get out or get back to the ground safely? I learned he has a Tager only unblockable setup if the doll and him corner you. He'll juggle you up and do a !! throw. If you don't tech it you'll get bounced off a clap to another !! throw CT style, but if you do tech the throw he can jump back up and spam j.A on you. Forcing you to block and stay floating in the air for another clap to connect before you can land to block it. Options?

I don't know if I have no skills or whatever, but I've had this done to me mid screen. Off of 5A if I remember correctly. Because the throw break stops the puppet animation he did the anti air that isn't clap, which I had barriered, then hit did jump a spam into clap.

I'm thinking at least in this mid screen situation it might have been better to just take the hit from the anti air? It looks like it would launch me pretty high depending on where I'm getting looped.

[ZONG_one]

If you see them coming, don't block the j.A's.

Then the whole loop will do like 800 damage.

[Dacidbro]

To follow up on Zong's advice, I believe the jA will force you to continue blocking if you block the first one, but you can certainly drop your guard with an IB (And even add in an air throw attempt too; I don't think there's good odds of it working, but worst case you get counter hit out of it and succeed with your original intent of getting hit, Best case you take off half carl's health bar lol)

[ShinsoBEAM]

I don't know what your talking about this match feels a good bit different from CT, mainly Carl can start and continue pressure a lot easier and safer(the neutral game was the same though). Also you don't sledge though nee-san as much anymore. It does feel kinda similar though but what both of you do is alot safer.

Also remember nee-sans spinning attack is only low on the first hit. j.2C is no longer overhead either, but due to Tager's tall hit box you can still screw up Carl's mixup sometimes by standing up in the middle of a block string.

Basically as Tager in this match you gotta block more and longer, but once you get your pressure started just like CT you can't let up, use that RC to keep it going.

[ShinsoBEAM]

dragarerasdfaserajkdsfjkla stupid double post.

[mAc Chaos]

Can't you guys just barrier block in the air to avoid the clap while he j.A's? I must be missing something.

[A.X.I.S.]

the clap is a unblockable attack, like a fully charged shippu.

i would have made a long winded post but i never played the game. :3

[ZONG_one]

You in air + Clap = No way to block in any way, barrier or not.

Also, I disagree that Carl's pressure is safer. 2C and 4D (I think 4D) are really great tools.

2C ANY of Carl's 5B>IAD bullshit. Free FCH.

[ShinsoBEAM]

You in air + Clap = No way to block in any way, barrier or not.

Also, I disagree that Carl's pressure is safer. 2C and 4D (I think 4D) are really great tools.

2C ANY of Carl's 5B>IAD bullshit. Free FCH.

Okay his IAD bullshit got weaker(it needed to), but his ground strings are no longer filled with you can totally IB and 360A/throw this, especially with Tager's throws getting buffed. Basically its alot more straightforward, before your best option for punishing carl, was any time he attempted anything even resembling a ground string or trying to invun though his j.2C. Now him being in the air against Tager isn't as good, but he feels alot more solid when his feet are planted on the ground. Plus its not like you can't bait 2C and punish us. Regardless it feels different from CT.

[A.X.I.S.]

how did his IAD bull get weaker?

only throw tager had that was buffed was 360B.

360A is the same.

and tager always had fast long range grabs.

also carl can chose to use his air special, you know the stabby stab move.

i believe it is still used as a cross-up tool.

[ShinsoBEAM]

how did his IAD bull get weaker?

only throw tager had that was buffed was 360B.

360A is the same.

and tager always had fast long range grabs.

also carl can chose to use his air special, you know the stabby stab move.

i believe it is still used as a cross-up tool.

j.2C is no longer overhead everything else is p.much the same from what I gather, our 2C is also faster and makes it more viable to beat carls stuff in the air.

360A is invun 1 frame earlier technically.

My friends break standard throw offline like 95% of the time :/

Yes he can choose to do the stabby move however it will result in a shitty low damage combo most/all of the time, and if we block it he is fucked.

[A.X.I.S.]

j.2C can be backdash punished on reaction even if it crosses up if it wiff's he eats 360B.

hmm frame data said 3~11 invul so it won't beat a well timed meaty...

just tick throw instead of regular throws then start spamming lows so he can't jump out lol.

and even if he does that move if he does something like fueco when he tries it he's pretty safe.

2C being useful sounds great.

also another good carl nerf: 623D is no longer unblockable...that fucks me hard in CT.

[ShinsoBEAM]

j.2C can be backdash punished on reaction even if it crosses up if it wiff's he eats 360B.

hmm frame data said 3~11 invul so it won't beat a well timed meaty...

just tick throw instead of regular throws then start spamming lows so he can't jump out lol.

and even if he does that move if he does something like fueco when he tries it he's pretty safe.

2C being useful sounds great.

also another good carl nerf: 623D is no longer unblockable...that fucks me hard in CT.

You mean command throw instead of regular throws, then yes. \

It depends on how he sets it up with the doll, but if he is doing Fueco then you know something is up.

[A.X.I.S.]

You mean command throw instead of regular throws, then yes. \

It depends on how he sets it up with the doll, but if he is doing Fueco then you know something is up.

he wants you to respond depends on the carls.

some want you to block.

others want you to attack nirvana.

in CT i either sledge(depends on distance and what carl is doing.)

or i jump over it.

but in CS its no clap so i'd probably sledge it...

CT logic=/=CS logic

[ShinsoBEAM]

Sledging nirvana works differently(IE worse for tager) in CS then it did in CT. Plus its kinda hard to start talking about options considering that nee-san's/Carl's/Tager's positioning all matters in what we should do.

[A.X.I.S.]

ugh thats not good, guess we have to IB it.

[ZONG_one]

Agreed, shinso. Carl on the ground is 10x more dangerous here.

In the air, you have a lot of damage options.

And yeah, I can bait 2C. But it's a guessing game, which is better than nothing, for tager.

Also. Carl's 5C (long poke) sucks in this game. His hitbox is extended to the tip of the poke I'm pretty sure, so use that to your advantage when it's you-nirvana-carl.

Use Gadget finger shenanigans. Carls ways out aren't as strong as other characters.

Also, he has shit health. Make the most of your damage. (Yeah, you guys got a damage nerf, but still.)

[Mike Z]

Heh, not knowing Carl's move inputs (only what they look like) is going to bite me here.

A few things:

- If Carl does 4D (the 2-hit, armored, low-then-knock-you-to-the-wall move), you can do 5A or 5C into BSledge, which will clash with the 2nd hit even though it doesn't knock Nirvana out of the move, and allow you to be safe.

- When he does pretty much anything else with Nirvana close to you, 5A->5B->4D is decent damage and air defense if Carl tries to rush you.

- If you hit Nirvana, it keeps your move active for much longer. Use this with 5C (increased range now) and 4D to get damage on the doll without allowing Carl to get closer.

- Like ZONG said, you can 5A/5C his 5C now. Poor Carl.

[ZONG_one]

And listen to this guy ^^:

He beats me too much.

[A.X.I.S.]

5C nerf was the best thing in that post, now the game is different, I don't have to watch my distance or at least I feel I don't.

oh joy I'm bound for that rude awakening.

PIGG I will have my revenge!

[ZONG_one]

5C nerf was the best thing in that post, now the game is different, I don't have to watch my distance or at least I feel I don't.

PIGG I will have my revenge!

Just make sure not to trade with something small.

CH hitstun from Carl's 5C is still a year.

Haha, every Tager in US wants PIGG revenge.

[A.X.I.S.]

Just make sure not to trade with something small.

CH hitstun from Carl's 5C is still a year.

Haha, every Tager in US wants PIGG revenge.

last time i played him I lost half those games because of a random hit confirm...

me: I got you now pigglet!

PIGG: its PIGG NOOB! -fullscreen hit confirm into clap-

me:

can 4D beat carls 5C on reaction?

[ZONG_one]

can 4D beat carls 5C on reaction?

I'm not sure if 4D is a good reversal, but I do see it get a lot of CH.

I wouldn't be surprised. Seriously guys, my 5C is the side of a barn.

Mike might know. If not, we can test it tomorrow or whenever.