[CS1] Hakumen vs Ragna

[JackG]

Ragna

Matchup Statistics

Japanese Ranking: 5.0-5.0

Personally:

Punishes:

Anti-airing:

Zoning:

Their game plan:

Strategy:

Char specific details:

Zoning game is even, Ragna's avg dmg is slightly higher, but Hakumen's higher hp evens out. risk/return from DP is variable. Matchup is even. (4C, jC, and generally less punishable C moves have made zoning game even. Makes sense)

[qwerty]

long range, just control where ragna goes with 4C and j.C. straight up super turbo style poking.

mid range is where both of you have your best options. his 5B is still really good but you can use your 5B to trade with it/sometimes beat it (this is of course up to your discretion, based on how much health you have left etc). 5A, 6A, hotaru, renka and tsubaki are really your friends here though.

close up, same old song and dance as ct. just block and ib into counter when you know you can.

and whatever you do, don't try to burst belial edge.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Why?

[ryokoalways]

Because you won't hit him, and he will land, recover, and get a free reset.

[MashButtons]

Because Ragna will get angry that you tried to get out of his combo. You don't want an angry Ragna.

[XVII]

Agreed. And you certainly don't want to try any attacks if you ever close in Ragna. That 6A is a pain. Either block, and play the guessing game of whether he'll jump or pressure, or try to counter it. The former is safer, but getting that counter nets you a good damage reward, IMO.

[Zeru]

Anyone have some additional advice on this match-up? The army of Ragna players online really give me a hard time, and feels like my worst personal match-up (along with Tager).

I have a hard time keeping Ragna out and even in games were I am doing well, once he gets in the match completely turns around. When I'm in a corner it feels extremely difficult to escape and I end up getting reset multiple times.

On the offensive side, I can't seem to sustain any pressure against Ragna; he will inevitably Inferno Divider past something and counter hit me into a combo. Even when I bait Inferno Divider my punishes don't seem to phase Ragna players at all and they just go straight back to offense, which forces me back onto the defensive.

[ryokoalways]

It would be easier to base it off a video if possible. Most of the time it's a simple matter of hakumen player playing impatiently, playing bad defense, or have bad space control.

[Zeru]

Probably all of the above, lol. I haven't uploaded a video from my 360 before, I'll figure that out and try to post a couple of replays. This match-up didn't feel anywhere near this bad in CT and I'm not entirely sure what it feels so much more difficult in CS >.<

Just a few general things:

Inferno Divider seems to make Ragna impossible to pressure for me. I don't approach him while he is down anymore simply because I have been hit with it far too often now.

His J.C seems to beat out anything I do, I don't know a single move in Hakumen's arsenal that beats it out, and am forced to block it.

His 5B is also a huge annoyance, as it seems to also beat out everything I do and its range feels immense, especially when he dashes into it.

Gauntlet Hades is another one I have found really bugs me; many Ragna's I play against backstep out of my range when I attack, then throw this out for some free damage. I have even been knocked out of the air by this damn move.

Though the real annoyance is Ragna's BnB combos in the corner, I seem to lose a huge amount of health in the corners and I have no clue how to get myself out. Should I be neutral teching instead of rolling forward/back and then just block until his block-string ends?

[ryokoalways]

Dealing with dp is a simple matter of guessing right. There is nothing else to it. But never back down after you get a knockdown. That is a no-no.

You can beat ragna's jC with jD and hotaru, whichever you prefer. By the way, there is nothing wrong with just blocking it. It's hardly a bad thing.

Ragna's 5B is a good move, but it hardly seals hakumen's options. You can beat 5B with either back dash gurren cancel or kishuu (which goes right under it). Depending on spacing, you can also just hop hotaru.

If you are getting backdashed by Ragna, you are not controlling your space correctly. You should go watch some more match vids and note the correct spacing to engage ragna at. Don't just air dash in from a million miles away.

As for GH, it 's just a high risk/high reward move with a decent hitbox. Just play it and punish it hard when you bait it out correctly. It's hardly spammable under any circumstance.

Neutral tech should be default for 80-90% of the techs. There are only certain instances where roll tech is safe. And yes, your first choice should always be block. Blocking is not a bad thing. Play solid defense, create space to work with, then try to find an opening.

[Zeru]

Didn't really mean to make it sounding like Block is a bad thing, I just hate it when it is the only real way I can react to some (alot in Ragna's case) of my opponents moves. I don't mind playing defensive (I play Hakumen after all), I just hate being FORCED onto the defensive.

For beating Ragna's jC, if they space it correctly won't jD whiff even if I do catch it?

Hotaru sounds like a good response, though I'll have to practice throwing that out on reaction to jC.

I'll definitely have to try out back dash into gurren or kishuu against 5B though, certainly wouldn't mind punishing that move.

I'll have to get into the habit of using neutral tech more often, I usually roll back against most opponents, unless I see them running up, then I usually roll past them. Seems to work reasonably well against most characters, but Ragna seems especially good at punishing it.

On another note, how does one deal with Ragna's 6A it seems to stuff air completely, and I often feel ground-bound against Ragna due to all his AA options. Is it simply a matter of guessing what they will do and jumping in with a barrier block to bait it, or am I stuck with a ground approach when they seem AA happy?

Thanks for the help, any advice helps.

edit: thanks for the advice/correction mAc Chaos

[mAc Chaos]

6B is his overhead kick. You probably mean 6A.

You don't want to approach from the air in general against Ragna. If you're set on beating out 6A, then you could Hotaru or j.D it to scare them out of it, otherwise barrier block and land.

[ryokoalways]

A good hakumen player can apply plenty of pressure even when he is blocking, so there is no instance where you are forced to block for a prolong period of time if you play defense correctly.

jC can't outrange jD.

To just beat 6A, do hotaru or jD. Best way to deal with 6A is to condition ragna into doing 6A at non-optimal distances with jC conditioning and movement. Ragna should not be able to 6A hakumen for free under any circumstances.

[Spark]

I had a big thing written up for this match up, but I restarted my computer without saving what I wrote. So I'll just leave this here and fill it out when I'm not being lazy.

Punishes:

623C: If you 5C when he's in the air it's CH so you get another 5C into BNB. The old punish with 6C is still possible, but he has to be close to you so you can 6C > 5A > 214B.

632146D: There's 30 or so frames in between the 1st and 2nd attack w/o IB, so you can almost do anything you want as a punish.

214214D: Barrier or better yet IB Barrier all D attacks, so they lose all 3000 life from blood kain.

Anti-airing & Zoning:

5A: If he does a low jump in j.C or j.B.

5B: Can work if he is only jumping in with the tip of j.B.

TK j.214B: Will beat just about every jump in and IAD.

j.C: Works pretty well as you have more range than Ragna's j.C and if you're both high in the air and at the right distance he can't combo off his j.C even if he hits you.

Strategy:

Approaching Ragna:

2B: Will beat Ragna's 5B and 5C if it's done first or at the same time, if you're at start of the match range or a little further away.

5B: Can dodge and hit Ragna out of his shorter ranged normals, but will trade a lot with 5B leaving you at neutral.

If you IAD or jump at Ragna you can use j.D(if you're not too high) or j.214B to beat out his 6A. Rising j.2C will also beat out 6A letting you land into 2A for a BnB, although this is really risky.

Pressuring Ragna:

Dealing with 623C: Try not to use 214B or 41236C too often because if they IB the first hit they can DP out before the 2nd hit. If you are far away enough, so only the tip of 2A will hit him and he DPs it will usually just go over you, if you're not sure than you can use 2B instead as it makes Hakumen go even lower.

Dealing with Ragna mix up:

Moves that Ragna uses to get back in:

2A: Most common string is just 2A > dash > 2A. This is pretty bad and slow because 2A is -2, so on IB it should be pretty easy to stop him from running back in. Only thing you have to watch out for is 2A > delay > 2A/whatever.

2B: A pretty common way of getting back in is just 5B > 2B > dash > whatever. If you IB and TK j.214B it will beat anything he chains into from this.

2C: It's +1 so some people will try to run in after this to continue pressure. Easy thing is to IB and 2A to stop him from running in, although he could cancel into 5D or 2D to punish your 2A.

6A/3C: Both are jump cancelable, so you should be ready to stop him from jumping back in if he does this.

6D > j.D: Leaves him at +16 if he does j.D as late as possible, so it's pretty annoying. Best thing to do is to j.D the 6D or just hit him with something as 6D is pretty slow.

214D: Leaves him at +5, so they will just run back in. Though you should always 6D this for a 3K BnB.

Mix up set ups:

2A: Watch for tick throws from this.

2B: Can be used for tick throws and chains into 6B for the overhead.

6A: Can be chained into 6B for the overhead. Is jump cancelable, so they may do a TK j.214B for an overhead.

6B: You should j.D this if you can.

5D: When you see this move you should just stand up because he cannot do a low after this. Always try to IB this because if he dashes after wards you can punish his dash with 2A into a BnB. Now if he goes right into 214A it is almost air tight and will hit you if you do anything, but if you IB this you get a free combo. Now that those are out of the way, what's left is canceling into 214D, 214B, delay 214A, or nothing and all of those lose to 623AA. What can Ragna do if he does 5D that will beat 623AA is just do nothing on till he sees the dash and then do 623C to beat it, but if you know he's going for that you can just 4C him which will hit him if he does nothing or whiff against the DP and let you punish. So if you ever see 5D it's pretty much free damage.

6D: If you block this Ragna has a ton of options off of this.

- 6D > late j.D so it whiffs > 2B: For the low

- 6D > late j.D so it whiffs > 6B: For the overhead

- 6D > late j.D so it whiffs > TK j.214B: For the overhead

- 6D > late j.D so it whiffs > 214B: For the overhead

- 6D > late j.D so it whiffs > BC: For a throw

- 6D > late j.D that still hits: Dash in for more pressure

- 6D > late j.D that still hits > TK j.214B: Dash in for more pressure

- And more that I'm sure I'm forgetting.

2D: Mainly used to catch jumps and to catch people standing from far away. On block you can always 214A for a punish even with no IB.

Char specific details:

Best 1 star throw combo for Ragna that I know of:

BC > 214A > 66 > 2A > 5A > jc > j.A > j.B > jc > j.2A > j.C

Can 623A under:

2A

5A

5B

2C

6D

236A

214B

Unblockable BK Super

Final note:

I'm sure there's more stuff to write, but I'm feeling lazy so I'll stop for now.

Edited November 14, 2010 by Spark

[mAc Chaos]

Aw, that sucks. I hate it when that happens. Good info though.

[ryokoalways]

Best punish for baiting dp correctly is hotaru imo, if you have 4 meter or more. You can take him for a ride across the screen into corner knockdown for anywhere from 5.5k to 6k damage, and 2 magatama recovery.

[mAc Chaos]

Do you have time for a fully charged 6C Fatal?

[ryokoalways]

Only on whiff, and you need to anticipate it. Correct spacing can bait out dp and cause it to whiff due to 6C drawing hakumen's hitbox backwards. Generally will only be applicable via knockdown.

[Spark]

Best punish for baiting dp correctly is hotaru imo, if you have 4 meter or more. You can take him for a ride across the screen into corner knockdown for anywhere from 5.5k to 6k damage, and 2 magatama recovery.

Assuming you're both are dead center in the middle of the screen and Hakumen has exactly 4 stars.

66 j.214B(FC) > j.2C > 5C > 5C > 623AA > j.2C > 2C > sjc > j.2A > ad > j.2A > j.C > 5C > 3C does 5399 DMG gives back ~1.8 stars. (You just barely make it to the corner)

5C(Air CH) > 5C > 623AA > j.2C > 5C > 5C > 623AA > j.2C > 2C > sjc > j.2A > ad > j.2A > j.C > 5C > 3C does 5358 DMG gives back ~2.7 stars.

j.214B(FC) Combo

Pros:

- You don't have to IB or duck under Ragna's DP

- Always gives the same amount of meter back.

- Does more damage for 4 stars.

Cons:

- Gives less meter

- Doesn't push them to the corner as much. (So you may not get corner KD sometimes)

- Does less damage compared to the other combo if you do 6 stars version with Renka after 5C > 5C. (6246 DMG)

5C(Air CH) Combo Pros:

- Since there are two 623As in the combo it pushes them closer to the corner. (More likely to get corner KD)

- Gives more meter back.

- Does more damage compared to the other combo if you do 6 stars version with Renka after 5C > 5C. (6547 DMG)

Cons:

- Does less damage for 4 stars.

- Gives less meter back if combo was started with 8 stars. (You don't get any meter for 5C > 5C at the beginning if you already have 8 stars.)

- Have to IB or dodge the last hit of Ragna's DP. (So you can hit him fast enough to get Air CH with 5C)

I was curious so I broke down all the damage, distance gained, and meter gained for the two combos. So depending on the situation one may be better than the other.

[SimpleKiss]

Assuming you're both are dead center in the middle of the screen and Hakumen has exactly 4 stars.

66 j.214B(FC) > j.2C > 5C > 5C > 623AA > j.2C > 2C > sjc > j.2A > ad > j.2A > j.C > 5C > 3C does 5399 DMG gives back ~1.8 stars. (You just barely make it to the corner)

5C(Air CH) > 5C > 623AA > j.2C > 5C > 5C > 623AA > j.2C > 2C > sjc > j.2A > ad > j.2A > j.C > 5C > 3C does 5358 DMG gives back ~2.7 stars.

j.214B(FC) Combo

Pros:

- You don't have to IB or duck under Ragna's DP

- Always gives the same amount of meter back.

- Does more damage for 4 stars.

Cons:

- Gives less meter

- Doesn't push them to the corner as much. (So you may not get corner KD sometimes)

- Does less damage compared to the other combo if you do 6 stars version with Renka after 5C > 5C. (6246 DMG)

5C(Air CH) Combo Pros:

- Since there are two 623As in the combo it pushes them closer to the corner. (More likely to get corner KD)

- Gives more meter back.

- Does more damage compared to the other combo if you do 6 stars version with Renka after 5C > 5C. (6547 DMG)

Cons:

- Does less damage for 4 stars.

- Gives less meter back if combo was started with 8 stars. (You don't get any meter for 5C > 5C at the beginning if you already have 8 stars.)

- Have to IB or dodge the last hit of Ragna's DP. (So you can hit him fast enough to get Air CH with 5C)

I was curious so I broke down all the damage, distance gained, and meter gained for the two combos. So depending on the situation one may be better than the other.

Interesting. Good explenation of the punishes there.

[ryokoalways]

The hotaru fatal one can use the jC ascending>jC descending combo piece to cover more distance at the cost of some damage. But you can secure corner knockdown with oki with a final AD j2A. I'd say about 70% stage length is ok with this one. Any more distance would require hotaru fatal and double enma relaunch, but you can actually almost go from 1 end directly to the other with it.

[Why-Disciple]

I'm just gonna put this out there because I'm not sure if it's been mentioned yet: if a Ragna dashes at you, for the love of God, block. If you try to keep him away with an attack like 4C or 6C, he'll use inferno divider and your attack will go through his dp invincibility frames. A good player will know when to use it as the invincibility goes through pretty much anything- including yukikaze, as I've discovered. If he ends up using and and you block, punish it. Just thought I'd share, hope it helps.

[psycofang2]

I'm just gonna put this out there because I'm not sure if it's been mentioned yet: if a Ragna dashes at you, for the love of God, block. If you try to keep him away with an attack like 4C or 6C, he'll use inferno divider and your attack will go through his dp invincibility frames. A good player will know when to use it as the invincibility goes through pretty much anything- including yukikaze, as I've discovered. If he ends up using and and you block, punish it. Just thought I'd share, hope it helps.

er what? hes stupid vulnerable when he dashes. do you mean dash cancel off C or D? or do you mean straight up run at you? because ive stopped both of those with a good 3C into 2B>gurren>hop>5A>etc combo. explain a bit further please. be precise.

[mAc Chaos]

He means "a good Ragna will run at you and Inferno Divider you out of any move you stick out (4C or 6C in this case) on reaction if you don't block."

You can comment on that if you want. :P

[DioBrando]

I think Why-Discipline means exactly what he or she meant. They dash in, ID on reaction to 6C and 4C. Haku-men does lean forward or stick his arm out during the attack.