[CS1] Iron Tager Gadget Finger Discussion

[bjholmes2]

This thread is for discussing Tager's new 22D move in CS. Right now, we know that it can only be done on grounded opponents. It does no damage, but it leaves Tager at a very slight frame advantage. Because of that, and the fact that you can end Tager's BnBs with this move, gadget finger has the potential to become a very powerful tool for Tager.

[Darlos9D]

Well, I'll kick it off by talking about possible opponent reactions, and what Tager's ideal counters would be. I'm not an expert on the subject, but I'm pretty sure I have a good grasp on whats going on. The enemy, as far as I know, can do one of these things when they land and recover: they can jump, block/walk back (stupid!), poke, backdash, DP (if they have one), or Super. Of course you don't really know what they'll do so it's kind of a game of rock-paper-scissors. There's kind of a final possibility of "you try to throw them before they recover" but this ends in !!. This may or may not be desirable depending on your playstyle or how much you think your opponent will fall for it anyway. Oh, and I guess they could burst, too. I'm pretty sure AC has startup invincibility (not sure on the exact frames though, I'm assuming it's from frame 1 to the first "catch" frame), making it a pretty good option if you think they'll be jumping. Apparently 2C is now a known AA as well, perhaps making it another option, though really you'll just end up ACing from that anyway, and AC isn't blockable. Maybe you want a counter hit for some reason though, I dunno. Along a similar vein you could maybe do a spinny super if you think they're going to jump and attack rather than block, but this seems risky. You could also try jumping and air-throwing them or something, which could potentially put you in an unexpected position for them should they wind up NOT jumping, so there might be some merit to jumping if you think it isn't too risky. With backdashing, the important thing to remember is that your opponent will always be magnetized at this point. Without meter, you can just hit them with a D move. You could also maybe throw a spark bolt for a wall bounce combo. I'm not sure if a 360 A or B would work out in this situation. I DO know that a 720 definitely will get them though. And again, maybe you could do spinny, but 720 seems like a better use of meter in this situation. If the enemy pokes, it might catch you if you didn't do something faster, or something that'd go through it like a 360A or a super. Honestly it seems like poking is a terrible idea for the opponent, but the mind games can go both ways and maybe they think YOU think they'll jump and are hoping for an anti-air move... or something. It seems more likely that if the enemy wants to handle this situation offensively, they'll do a DP or a super. You could block and punish, you could do a well-timed back-dash (assuming the attack isn't too meaty) and punish, or you could do a counter-super. Of course, if you block you have to watch out for the enemy RCing. I'll stop here. Obviously there's a lot of crazy specifics in a lot of places, like dealing with a DPing Lichi (who's DP counts as a projectile), and I don't feel like thinking of all of them. Plus, as I said, I'm no expert in all this, I may have been completely wrong about some things. I just wanted to try to get the thread moving.

[Brother Mojo]

WARNING: THEORY FIGHTER AHEAD. Feel free to correct me on anything if there's stuff I haven't thought of or if something doesn't work as well as I think it would.

Tager's options basically seem to boil down to 5A, 6A, 360A, 623C, (delayed) 720C, block, and backdash. Other options seem basically subsumed or dominated by the preceding. (For example, Spinny beats both poke and j.poke, plus maybe backdash, but 5A is in basically the same situation and doesn't burn 50 heat. 6A and 5D both beat backdash, but 6A combos better and also beats projectile stuff. etc.)

Your opponents options are, generally, poke, j.poke, reversal, block, and backdash.

Note: If you 720C or 360B too early, you'll catch them in a purple throw, because a purple throw will happen even a few frames after they've recovered from hitstun. 360A is slow enough that it won't purple throw, so no risk there, plus the invulnerability helps.

Tager's 5A beats poke and j.poke, and possibly backdash if you react quickly enough with a longer-range poke. Against jumping opponents, try to 5A (stuff) xx 623C, (stuff) xx Gadget. Against grounded opponents, the safe option is to combo to 3C xx Gadget.

Tager's 6A beats backdash and projectile DPs. Also people who do slow jump attacks, but whatever. Combo 6A to 2C xx 623C, etc.

Tager's 360A beats block and poke, pretty straightforward.

Tager's 623C beats j.poke and... that's about it. However, there are some mean combos if you land 623C as the first hit, so it opens them up for tons of damage.

Tager's (delayed) 720C beats block, poke, and backdash if you hold the button, and inflicts real Soviet damage. However, that 50% heat requirement makes it more risky.

Block beats multi-hit reversals, like a lot of supers. Against single hit reversals it's ok unless they have meter to RC or are Hakumen. Otherwise, it just puts you on the defensive... but being on the receiving end of a blockstring is better than being on the receiving end of a combo.

Backdash beats single-hit reversals, like Inferno Divider, tk'd Hotaru, etc. Using backdash over block seals up their options in this case, since IDs can't be rapid canceled, Hotaru can't be jump-canceled or canceled into Tsubaki, etc. Then just punish however you want, such as 360B, 720C, etc.

So, if your opponent can't use a reversal (because they don't have 50 heat and aren't Ragna, Jin, etc.) then 5A, 360A, 623C and maybe 6A are all you really need. 360A and 623C are probably your best damage options, and 6A handles backdashers cleanly as well as sometimes beating jumps. 5A serves as the lowest risk/lowest reward option. If you ignore it, you've got a pretty good 3-way mixup.

If you're fighting against Litchi, Tsubaki, etc. with a projectile-type reversal, then 6A becomes more important, but otherwise stuff remains basically the same. Against people with a special reversal, add backdash to the mix. Against people with a reversal DD, use block instead, but it's pretty risky since if you guess wrong it allows them to completely take the offensive again. Anyway, a 4-way mixup isn't so nice. Gadget against such characters requires significantly stronger yomi.

That's what I've got. Still waiting for a chance to actually play CS. Again, correct me if I screwed up anywhere.

[Isorropia]

It's character dependant, but a good defensive option against gadget finger is using a grounded, throw invulnerable poke, eg bangs 6B, litchi's hatsu, nu's 4B, and others like those. Since they have body attribute they beat AC, and since they're throw invulnerable they beat 360A, and I'm not certain, but I think they'll beat 6A (or is the frame advantage significant enough to get a CH here?), and that leaves 5A as an option (or block, the moves I listed aren't exactly safe, but they are safer than DP's....I guess).

[Brother Mojo]

It's character dependant, but a good defensive option against gadget finger is using a grounded, throw invulnerable poke, eg bangs 6B, litchi's hatsu, nu's 4B, and others like those. Since they have body attribute they beat AC, and since they're throw invulnerable they beat 360A, and I'm not certain, but I think they'll beat 6A (or is the frame advantage significant enough to get a CH here?), and that leaves 5A as an option (or block, the moves I listed aren't exactly safe, but they are safer than DP's....I guess).

True, I hadn't considered those. Jin's Musou could also fit into this category, perhaps? Anyway, speed is the primary consideration there. If the move is slow enough that 6A would come out first, they could just be lumped in with backdash and additional consideration isn't really necessary. If it's faster, 5A is probably the best counter to those moves, making it a more valuable option than I'd thought.

[ShinsoBEAM]

Okay more importantly what should we scream/loudly bellow when we land gadget finger.

[brningpyre]

"GO GO GADGET FINGERRRRR~!"? Back on topic though, how much is the frame advantage? From bjholmes's post, it sounds like 2-4 frames.

[Maho]

It's character dependant, but a good defensive option against gadget finger is using a grounded, throw invulnerable poke, eg bangs 6B, litchi's hatsu, nu's 4B, and others like those. Since they have body attribute they beat AC, and since they're throw invulnerable they beat 360A, and I'm not certain, but I think they'll beat 6A (or is the frame advantage significant enough to get a CH here?), and that leaves 5A as an option (or block, the moves I listed aren't exactly safe, but they are safer than DP's....I guess).

You can delay and hold 360A, get bang's 6B and Lambda's 4B to whiff then throw them, have to test against Litchi's Hatsu, but for this one i was able to counter throw 720 before she get airborne, without getting the pink !! for doing it to fast, should probably work against some other moves like that.

For Jin, a delayed 360A will beat his B and C DPs, didn't get the chance to try against the D one.

Litchi has a quite safe option if she got meter, Dai Sharin will beat every or Tager's option except for the spinny super (and blocking of course), but unless you have 100% tension it's quite risky.

For Lambda 360A beats her backdash, and with good timing can beat her gravity seed, i think she's really in trouble after a Gadget.

Against Hazama, once i blocked and he did his flashkick move, seems he's too far as it whiffed, and i was able to CH 5D him.

[ThaShizzle]

ok this is a question for people who have played the game and know tager, i plan on going to a tournament saturday for bb cs and i main tager, the problem is i havent touched the game yet. so i want to know, what are the best options to use after a gadget finger?

[ShinsoBEAM]

ok this is a question for people who have played the game and know tager, i plan on going to a tournament saturday for bb cs and i main tager, the problem is i havent touched the game yet. so i want to know, what are the best options to use after a gadget finger?

Think what you do when the opponent is right next to you in jab blockstun, magnitized and you will get a general idea of what you should do.

[bjholmes2]

Back on topic though, how much is the frame advantage? From bjholmes's post, it sounds like 2-4 frames.

From what I understand, it leaves you at a 2 frame advantage, give or take a frame.

[Mike Z]

ACTUAL INFO: - You can hold the button down and he'll keep his hand out. This is how you do things like Sledge, Gadget. There's no harm in holding it (at least a little bit) all the time. - Gadget does NOT affect an airborne opponent at all. No pull unless they are touching the floor. However, it will add velocity to the first few frames of a neutral teching opponent. - Gadget will NOT grab an opponent that is not on their back on the ground. If they tech and you hold the Gadget, it will still drag them in (they are touching the floor) but it won't grab - you're letting them have a free hit. - Gadget cancelling a combo-ending 5D is kinda awesome - you can immediately 2D or sj.C,C to get close quickly. - If you are fast you can RC Gadget into either Spinny or AC. 360B, Gadget RC AC is 4.4K unburstable damage.

[Darlos9D]

I've heard people talk about canceling GF into AC or something. 4.4k is pretty good for unburstable. It'd be nice to see it in action though. I know I'll probably do it now and again.

Okay more importantly what should we scream/loudly bellow when we land gadget finger.

Whenever I watch him do it, I imagine him bellowing "HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" while he lifts them up. It's something about the pose...

I do know that before matches I'll be saying "you gonna get fingered."

[Brother Mojo]

You can hold the button down and he'll keep his hand out. This is how you do things like Sledge, Gadget. There's no harm in holding it (at least a little bit) all the time.

Does 22[D] grab at the first possible moment, like 360B/720, or only when you release the button, like 360A/AC?

If you are fast you can RC Gadget into either Spinny or AC. 360B, Gadget RC AC is 4.4K unburstable damage.

Gadget as an actual combo option? Sweet. Any sort of grasp on what the proration is like after Gadget Finger? Also, what's the untechable time like? Can you follow up that Collider with anything?

[Mike Z]

It grabs all the time - holding the button extends the active time. You can Spark after the Collider, but that's it.

[Tofu Warrior]

If your opponent jumps away and barrier guards after Gadget Finger, and you throw out a 6A, can you cancel it into Atomic Collider before he falls to low?

[ShinsoBEAM]

If your opponent jumps away and barrier guards after Gadget Finger, and you throw out a 6A, can you cancel it into Atomic Collider before he falls to low?

if he does fall too low then wouldn't we be able to 360A or 720C :D.

[Darlos9D]

Well then they could always jump again but HEY they can't expect everything.

[720+c=BUSTAAHH]

That is nice, but if they fall, they enter landing animation, which I guess is throwable, which almost make Anti-air blocked 6A to 720C certain, however this is in theory per say........ MORE 720C SET UPS FOR ME!

[Tofu Warrior]

6A is jump cancelable, it's virtually impossible to buffer a 720 off it. I've seen Galileo do it in a combo video once, but that's about it.

[Mike Z]

Nah, just do it the same speed you'd buffer off a 5A whiff - finish 720 before Tager hits and hold sideways, then 8+C later on to jump cancel and do the super.

[Mike Z]

Double post! It's possible to do 360A, Gadget without magnetism first, if you do the Gadget as 262+D.

[Tofu Warrior]

Double post! It's possible to do 360A, Gadget without magnetism first, if you do the Gadget as 262+D.

Wow, that's good to know! It seems like "walking forward ever so slightly" is actually a big part of Tager's combo game now; for the first fatal counter combo in this video, you have to walk forward a few pixels after the Atomic Collider before you do j.C, latest j.2C and continue comboing. I can't seem to nail that combo, I think I'm walking too far forward. I like the combo Mike Z does at 1:12 of this video, it seems a lot easier, but it does 700 less damage.

[Maho]

Does tha 360A > 262D gadget work on Litchi? I tried yesterday but couldn't get it.

6A is jump cancelable, it's virtually impossible to buffer a 720 off it. I've seen Galileo do it in a combo video once, but that's about it.

It's possible if you do in a blocktring something like 5C > 63214789[6A] (hold 6 a few frames) then do another 360 in the same direction and hit C, you just need to delay the second 360 not to get a purple throw.

Speaking of 6A, after gadget if your opponent jumps forward, it misses and magnetism works against you then get him in your back for a free combo, so better stay to 5C to bait backdashes.

[Mike Z]

I don't do that combo much anymore. :^) The easier one is, well, easier...and more dmg. But it does look funny.

Real info: You can GF after they die if you kill them with a 360B, but not with a 360A. (Hey, it's important!)

Also, this.