[CS1] Iron Tager Gadget Finger Discussion

[Isorropia]

Yeah....no. Bad idea. 2C is 15f startup. GF leaves you at +3. That means any attack faster than 12f will CH you cleanly. Virtually all 5/2As and 5/2Bs are less than 12f. Not only that, you can escape 2C cleanly by just backdashing after GH, jumping backwards, etc.

If people are putting out >12f moves in a -3 situation, then you just need to start playing against people who aren't horrible. >.>

[Acidious]

Fair enough, I'm just stating it's worked quite well in the past, also I'm aware you can backdash out of it, but there are always those people who will take risks, and like everything else, it's situationally useful. The other alternatives have risks that are potentially just as large as one that 2C can bring about.

[Sponson]

Yeah....no. Bad idea. 2C is 15f startup. GF leaves you at +3. That means any attack faster than 12f will CH you cleanly. Virtually all 5/2As and 5/2Bs are less than 12f. Not only that, you can escape 2C cleanly by just backdashing after GH, jumping backwards, etc.

If people are putting out >12f moves in a -3 situation, then you just need to start playing against people who aren't horrible. >.>

Throwing out a >12f move in a -3 situation is better than throwing out a 21 frame move in a +3 situation. But 6a is potent tool to catch people after GF for tager, isn't it?

Edit: I mean, what are generally the best options in a no-ID situation?

360a/b and atomic collider seem to be "wild guesses", since they either hit or miss with no chance to confirm before hand and require pretty much strictly yomi.

But then you have 5a to confirm anything pretty much but you lose out on the damage potential of 360/AC.

And then you have 6a -> 2c for those who don't barrier on jump.

[Osuna]

Throwing out a >12f move in a -3 situation is better than throwing out a 21 frame move in a +3 situation. But 6a is potent tool to catch people after GF for tager, isn't it?

Edit: I mean, what are generally the best options in a no-ID situation?

360a/b and atomic collider seem to be "wild guesses", since they either hit or miss with no chance to confirm before hand and require pretty much strictly yomi.

But then you have 5a to confirm anything pretty much but you lose out on the damage potential of 360/AC.

And then you have 6a -> 2c for those who don't barrier on jump.

I passionately hate GF and have since I learned what it did. So I'm going to invite people to correct me so that I might find some purpose for it that doesn't involve an RC.

Here's 3 options characters usually have. Attack. Jump forward. Back dash.

And here's how they usually work. Attack>collider/6A. Jump Forward>6A/360/720. Backdash>360/collider/5A. Each option is generally strong against more than one of your options and are pretty decent choices for most characters. To beat those 3 major options you need at minimum these three options; 6A, 360, and collider. 5A is also needed occasionally. So in a sense those are 'good' options when compared to doing something like...XYH or...5D or whatever. But yeah none of them are quite amazing. There's also some specific options some characters have that shut down a lot more of your options.

edit: I omitted double gadget because it's effect is pretty match up specific and I don't know that it can be described generally.

[Isorropia]

But 6a is potent tool to catch people after GF for tager, isn't it?

But then you have 5a to confirm anything pretty much but you lose out on the damage potential of 360/AC.

If by potent you mean damaging, yes, if by potent you mean a good/reliable option, then no (Noel excepted. >.>). As others have said, throwing out these moves after gadget finger you're mixing yourself up as much as the opponent. And ending your combo with a wrong guess > 4k combo from the other guy usually isn't something you want, especially as tager when you need to keep momentum going.

On 5A, it's pretty much all I ever use after non RC gadgets. Since from there you can usually set up your normal blockstring mixup. For instance, Gadget > 5A > 2B (it whiffs) > 360B. This is similar to 360A after gadget, but it beats mashing, blocking, jumping (they jump and block 5A, then fall into the 360). Essentially I prefer to have mixup occurring in the chaos of a blockstring instead of an incredibly telegraphed situation.

Also 5A stops litchi's 7j.B from being a free escape, you can hitconfirm:

CH 5A > 5C > 6A > standard combo for 2.5k or so.

tl;dr: Using 5A then mixup tends to yield more reliable results overall. Even if gadget gives you nothing else than a blocked 5A, it's better than them rollteching away for free/not teching at all.

[Sponson]

That was incredibly informational, thanks a ton Iso.

Now for another question: whats the deal with double gadget? All it does is fuck with your opponent mind wise but in the end its the same deal.

[Nobus3r1]

That was incredibly informational, thanks a ton Iso.

Now for another question: whats the deal with double gadget? All it does is fuck with your opponent mind wise but in the end its the same deal.

I believe the point is that in certain matchups the threat of double gadget is there to take away their backdash as an escape option. It's like adding a 4th option to rock-scissors-paper.

[Osuna]

That was incredibly informational, thanks a ton Iso.

Now for another question: whats the deal with double gadget? All it does is fuck with your opponent mind wise but in the end its the same deal.

In some match ups it can set up a 360B punish for a backdash. For Ara it is also safe on jump which improves risk/reward. It's also the only meterless way to punish lambda's and ara's backdash. There's more weird match up specific stuff it can do, but I see think this is easier to see as useful.

[Sponson]

Wait, is it a Gf > GF (whiff) > xxx? Or its it like, GF, RC, GF (non-whiff)?

[Osuna]

Wait, is it a Gf > GF (whiff) > xxx? Or its it like, GF, RC, GF (non-whiff)?

GF>GF(sometimes whiffs and sometimes hits depending on jump and backdash properties)No one RCs gadget finger into itself except for hilarious time outs.

edit: Also depends on how long you hold the GF. The idea for punishing the backdash is to use the GF's mag on whiff to pull them for a 360B.

[Isorropia]

Basically the way it works is, the opponent is still in a red beat combo for 3f after you're able to move. Since they're in a red beat combo, which has down status (like after collider, 3C), you can gadget.

So after a gadget finger, execute another one roughly around when their feet hit the ground. You have to be careful though, since it'll ONLY catch jumps/backdashes, if they're ballsy and attack, well, gadget finger sorta doesn't have a hitbox....

[A.X.I.S.]

2 things to note.

1. the 6A>2C reset can lose to really fast pokes...I can assume 5F jabs.

don't know what the deal is but I lose to makoto's 2A and hazama's 5A a couple times, but here's a better solution.

with the same meter you can do 2B>2C which is far scarier with the same number of hits. (6 or more hits before gadget FYI)

you can get it out but the trick is the 2B would have to red beat for it to work.

2. for all those who had trouble with gadget>RC>5C>22D whiff>360/720

you can walk a nidge and hit 5C right when the fall below your waste line, once again you have to make the 5C red beat or you won't get the gadget you'll get a 2D. (FYI 2D can lose to reversal or if they IB your fucked depending on match up blah blah blah)

just thought I'd spill that info that I have been holding onto for the past few days.

[SoJexy]

Hey, new face and new player here. I searched up the forums but couldn't find a definite answer to my question.

The combo I have a tough time is xx>623C>236B>22D. I always tend to whiff the finger after the Bsledge. Is there a specific timing for it? Does it only work for certain characters? I heard that holding it down helps, but I keep whiffing it (the fact that I'm playing on pad might also contribute).

EDIT: I did some more practice, it just seems that I'm not inputting it fast enough. However my question still stands on the character specific part.

Edited November 5, 2010 by SoJexy

[Manta]

irrc that combo does not work on Carl and Arakune. For them you have to use the "Egadget" manoeuvre. That is, after the collider, jump forward and immediately do j.C (whiffing completely) and then wait until you're just about to touch the floor and do j.2C (which should hit pretty instantly) and then do 22D asap after that.

[A.X.I.S.]

B sledge gadget works on everyone because it OTG's them BUT it won't work on kune because he has a odd aerial hit box, on smaller characters you can actually walk up a step then B sledge, it helps for people who are too far or too small like say carl and tsubaki.

I had B gadget whiff on them.

For Ara you have to do Egadget if your trying to land one on him.

Edited November 5, 2010 by A.X.I.S.

[SoJexy]

Ah, alright! Thanks for clearing that up. But uhh, what do you mean by "walk up before the B sledge"? Do you mean after AC I move forward, Bsledge then gadget?

[A.X.I.S.]

oh I mean.

collider>walk Bsledge>22D

[SoJexy]

Awesome. I'll try this out right now, thanks!

[Tae Seong Kim]

Also, you should hold gadget finger, if you aren't already doing so.

Edited November 6, 2010 by Tae Seong Kim

[Chozo003]

I was going to make a new thread for this, but it would probably be safer to try asking here first since it's (mostly) relevant.

I've been trying to beat Score Attack since I got the game, and quite simply I can't seem to do it by conventional means. That is, I can't win with my main. Typically I get to UHaku then lose in round three after falling ass-backwards into a lucky win. One thing that makes this all the more difficult is that I don't own a second controller (loser, I know) and I'm living away from home so I can't borrow any of my friends' controllers. I've considered buying a second one solely to do this, but I'm short on money and don't care quite that much. So basically I've got one shot at each match and that's it.

Now, I recently tried Score Attack with Tager (who I only play casually once in a blue moon as like, a sixth sub) and found it extremely easy to get past UHaku with buster shenanigans and whatnot. However, then I get raped by UHazama. So yeah, I've got a very important question that makes this post actually related to the thread. I've heard that the CPUs on SA don't tend to react to 360B after a Gadget Finger, resulting in a sort of loop. When I do a 360 followed by Gadget Finger, I'm only able to catch them with 360B occasionally, probably about 50/50. Is there a particular timing to this? And does this work on UHazama?

Sorry for posting SA questions like a scrub, but I think it's time I finally beat the damn thing, and if I have to resort to the power of science to do so, then so be it. Also at the risk of pushing my luck here, any tips for UHazama in general? Matchup thread really didn't help me at all. Thanks.

[Isorropia]

For hazama and ragna in score attack, they tend to fall for:

360B > 236A > (they bounce tech, you walk forward) > 360B.

Forever.

[Chozo003]

Thanks a lot, I'll be certain to give that a try.

[Manta]

You can also exploit a bit of the AI's coding that makes them do reversal moves when you attack. For some reason, 421B (Voltic Charge) is considered a move that the AI is programmed to hit you out of, so every time you do it, they'll do inferno divider, jayakou houtenjin, spark bolt, etc... despite the fact that all of these moves will land harmlessly on your guard point and will give you a free reversal. Heck, they even try to do these moves when you're on the other side of the screen which can be useful if you want to get the AI to burn 50 meter harmlessly. For some reason, Spark bolt isn't conisdered to be a move they'll try to counter (Or even block 70% of the time), so it's pretty much a free hit into a combo. Against Hazama, if he does his 214D stance as okizime (as he likes to do), don't do anything except voltic charge, since the AI also has bullshitty one frame reaction times with the before mentioned reversals.

The AI is also a huge sucker for ... AC (step) 6C -> 5D 623[C] (Tech trap). Hakumen in particular.

Gadget finger into 360B Tends not to work well on Hazama (He likes to backdash it). However, a held 720C works wonders.

Edited November 7, 2010 by Manta

[Ikki]

Hi guys,

So, I've been watching this vid : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpvrafHIyhw

but I can't for the life me pull off the gadget>RC>AC whiff mixup, they usually fall back to the ground (or sometimes I AC them). Is my timing really that off or is there something I don't understand. Any advice will be appreciated.

[A.X.I.S.]

Do collider after the snap or a moment after he flashes yellow.